Estimating labor & profit for deck build
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I’ve put a deck build out to bid and the few responses I’ve gotten are much higher than expected.
The deck is 14′ wide and 12′ deep. It’s about 7-1/2′ off the ground and has 3 stairs that run the entire length of the 12′ dimension. It’s to be framed in PT and decked in IPE with hidden fasteners. The railing is 4 X 4 with composite sleeves and stainless steel cable. An elevation sketch is attached. If someone could hazard a guess as to the cost of labor and profit, it might help me make sense of the bids I’ve gotten.
Replies
Why is profit a concern? How would knowing that help you to decide if you're getting a fair price? Just because the bids are higher than you think they should be means nothing. That's a very high end deck with expensive parts and lots of labor, I'd probably charge you $25 to $30K for it.
"Why is profit a concern?"
Mostly because I expect the person who does it to make a profit. Knowing how much that should be would help me understand if the bids are reasonable or not or if they're really just bids from folks who don't really want the job unless there's a high margin in it.
And you'll decide if the amount of profit they charge is fair? And you'll do that with no knowledge of their business costs or overhead? How much are the bids? What do you think is a fair profit? How much do you think the deck should cost?
Frankly I would say your concern about profit is irrelevant, and actually none of your business. Your decision is to agree to a price or not. It is certainly not to involve yourself in someone else's business, and how profitable they are.
You're correct. I'm not trying to tell these guys how much to make, that's their business. I could just decline their offers, but that's hard to judge without a frame of reference and that's what I was loking for here.
I'm not trying to tell these guys how much to make, that's their business.
So is what their profit is, their business. Why not get prices with a lump sum, labor and materials? Why do you need to see what the profit is?
Joe Carola
Perhaps I should have worded this differently.
I'm trying to figure out how much to add to the cost of materials to get a frame of reference for what a decent price should be. I know the cost of materials; what I don't know is what's reasonable for labor and profit. I'm not challenging anyone's right to that profit, just trying to understand the gap between materials and the total.
Someone suggested that the prices I got might just be the first volley in a negotiation. I prefer to not play that game. I figure that their price is their price and I can take it or leave it. I have only the two bids so far and it would be useful to get a frame of reference before inconveninecing more guys (and me) by having them come out to bid.
Cost of materials is a carp shoot at best. Who knows who supply chain. Is this a stock product or all special order. Do the installers have to take an approved training course to install the product? Specailized tools owend or rented? Time line of work period?Employees or subs? Have you run a job? and run materials. they ain't giving cedar away don't forget that new PT needs proper fastenrs properly installed That is not a run of the mill deck, least round these parts. Just a quick guess materials delivered to site $12.000. Labour and profit $ 12.000 to $15.000. Taxes in.How far away am I from the bids?
so your supplying materials?You're asking people to give an estimate and not all of the pertinent conditions have been laid out
Barry E-Remodeler
Perhaps I should have worded this differently. I know the cost of materials
Yes, you should've worded it differently and want a LABOR price only.
what I don't know is what's reasonable for labor and profit.
Since you're supplying material and you want a LABOR price. That's what you will get is a labor price. The profit is in the labor price. That's all you need to know.
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Joe Carola
Edited 8/9/2009 7:39 pm ET by Framer
Profit is a moving target, and can't really be compared between quotes. A guy with a shop or storefront, a cube van full of tools, and a few employees is going to have much more overhead than a one-man show with a pickup truck, and will therefore need to charge more "profit". But I'd bet that the former will probably do a better job than the latter.Scott.
Then it seems you are going at this backwards. what is your goal? how many bids do you have? How did you choose the companies that bid?Those that have bid have seen your project and you, as their potential client, up close I would guess. How is some prices from guys you have never met and have never seen your project site firsthand going to give you any frame of reference? We don't even know what area you are in, job site conditions or youAny prices you get here would be completely artificial in regards to your specific projectTalk to the people that gave you real life bids. decide which one would be the best fit for you and your project. Than share your concerns. That might suggest some "value engineering" or you can decide if your expectations are entirely unrealistic.Or are you looking for a high end deck for the cheapest price you can find, irregardless of any other option?
Barry E-Remodeler
If the bids were from licensed, experienced, contractors, and were reasonably close to one another, I suspect that your expectations are more of the problem than their bids.
That's a pretty serious looking deck that will probably require some engineering (post footings, attachment to the house, etc), permitting, and inspections. Hidden fastening systems and stainless steel rails aren't cheap; and I'm still in shock over what one of my customers spent for the stainless steel cable rail system in his home.
Talk to a couple of your bidders and ask them to explain their bid. They probably won't give you details of their labor and profit (I sure wouldn't), but their input might cause you to rethink your expectations.
Ok, I'll show my ignorance here, and take an uneducated stab at it (since I've never built a deck like the one pictured): Labor 9K, Materials 3K, 15% contingency 1.8K, 10% profit + 10% overhead 2.76K, total bid $16,560.00
From someone who used to build decks - a wild guess: Sounds like it might be $30 a sq ft plus the cost of the retaining wall. Maybe $35 a sq ft for the steps. The retaining wall might be anywhere between $13 and $25 a sw foot of wall face depending on what it is made of. Also, a wall that high needs to be engineered - or at least here it does.
A lot of it depends on what the cost of living, is where you live though.
As far as labor and profit, not really your concern unless you are the one building it.
I thought the retaining wall was existing?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Ooops.. You are right. My bad.
That's a pretty involved deal. Without take the time to run the numbers, I'm guessing labor around 20k. Keep in mind for something architectural like that you are not only paying for labor and profit, but for the expertise to pull it off, make it look good and resolve all the details in a pleasing way.
Truth be told, the materials for this project probably exceed the total cost of decks 2-3 times the size. The railing, the step in front of the doors, and I'm guessing the stair detail is not typical either.
If you are investing this kinda $$, I would be more focused of finding someone who will Penofin all sides before installation and ensure the use of _only_ stainless fasteners for everything than the lowest bid.
The question you have to resolve is: "Do I trust this person to build this right."
If you trust the builder, you needent worry if the price is fair because someone you trust wouldn't rip you off.
Oh man, I'm not sure where to begin.
I think the first thing you need to know is: Construction is expensive. Not only is it more expensive than most homeowners realize, it's more expensive than some contractors realize. The very fact that you're surprised at how expensive their estimate is, tells me that these particular contractors probably have the experience to know this. Everyone thinks contractors make easy money. The reality is that they're trying to be as competitive as they can be without losing their shirt.
Now, man oh man, where to continue. . .
A few more things:
One is you said you only got two bids. It's pretty much common knowledge that if you're going for a competitive bid you try to get at least three bids, and then usually lean towards the medium price. That way you attempt to weed out both the contractor that's overpriced, as well as the contractor who intends to get away with building you a piece of junk.
Another is you said that you know how much the material costs. I seriously doubt it. I've had customers tell me that before, only to realize how much they were actually missing after I itemized everything they would really need on paper. I also hope that the fact you supposedly know how much the materials cost doesn't mean that you're buying the materials. If it does, you should know that that's the first sign of a bad customer, and no good contractor would work under such conditions unless he's starving.
You'll notice above that I said a competitive bid is a way to "attempt" to get the right contractor. I personally don't recommend you do it this way. Good contractors that do quality work don't participate in competitive bids unless they absolutely have to. You're much better off going with a recommendation from a trusted friend.
Have you made an effort to learn anything at all about these contractors besides their price??? Do they offer a warranty? What's they're reputation in honoring that warranty? Are they easy to get a hold of if there's a problem? Is their product the kind you usually have a problem with? How long will it take them to finish the project? Are they going to stay working on your particular project until it's done? How many people will be working on it? What hours will they be working? Are they the type of contractor that cuts corners, or the type that builds something to be proud of? Has the contractor missed anything in his bid that will throw a monkey wrench into the whole project? Ten different contractors can build off the exact same print with ten different standards.
Finally . . .
Estimating a project is hard work, and then sometimes you still don't get it right. Even if I wanted to do all of that work for you, there's no way I could be realistic about it with the little bit of information you provided. I personally would never quote you a solid price based on the one vague print you provided. Labor costs also vary widely from locality to locality, and I don't even know what state you live in, let alone what region of that state.
I also can't see what I would have to work with, or around on your site. For all I know I could have to lug all of my tools half way to your place in my car because your neighborhood has some ordinance against pickup trucks. Then I might have to get to your site trudging through six yards of swamp after crossing stream on a row boat and then dig through three feet of clay. Afterwards I'll have to figure in the cost of going back and getting my generator along with it's several accompanying gas cans because there's no electricity on site. A bit of an exaggeration, yes, but are you starting to get the picture from a contractors perspective?
The closest guess I can give you of an extremely rough estimate, is take the price of the materials, double it, and use that number labor. (Materials x 2 = Labor) In other words, multiplying the materials cost by three will give you a guess at the total cost of the job. And don't blame me if this guess ends up being wrong.
-T