Anybody out there know of a good construction estimating software for a MAC?
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or how 'bout PC. I didn't know there was estimation software. I never knew how to do it.
Ductape can fix EVERYTHING!!!
Goldenseal- I've used it for over a year now and I love it.
http://www.turtlesoft.com
Thanks for the tip True North.Would it be possible for you to post some real world examples from the program? Black out personal information of course. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, I'm posting this from the jobsite, but I'd be glad to post some examples. What exactly did you have in mind, some pdf forms of estimate printouts, or screenshots of the actual program at work?I'd be glad to do either when I get to my real computer. Check out their website. It is a huge site and can be a little confusing, but it has a lot of info. There is also a free demo with unlimited time. The interface is dated and can be off putting, but if you can get past that, the program itself is brilliant.And for the record, I am not an employee or getting paid in any way. I just like the program. It has made me a lot of money over the past year.
What limitations do the demo have? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It is limited to 50 new records in each catagory.
True North
What exactly did you have in mind, some pdf forms of estimate printouts, or screenshots of the actual program at work?
I'm interested in anything you want to post.
I've been to the website and my mouse hovered over the demo for a few minutes.
I don't want to try the demo until I have some time to learn it.
But I would like to peek at anything you are willing to post. i would like to see some screen shots.
Rich
Jim
Okay, I'll prime the pump here and post an estimate from Craftsman National Insuance Estimator.
This is a hypothetical basement bedroom. 12 x 14
I downloaded the program for $25-$29.
You can change the hourly rate. For this example all hours are for $40/hr.
You can change the overhead and profit.
The best way to use it is to save templates (garage, basement) and modify to suit the new job.
Currently I estimate on excel with my own spreadsheets and then if I am uncertain about the price then I do an estimate in National Estimator to check myself.
I copied this to a Word doc. and then double spaced it for easier reading and made some areas bold.
Rich
All
Here is a post by True North from a couple of months ago with an estimate.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&guid=59B1E2F4-91E0-4FDF-884B-992BED461DA9&frames=no
Rich
Hey Cargin and Jim,Sorry for the delay. I didn't forget you!Here are some screenshots. I included the "Cost Items" window. This is where your individual components go, like drywall, studs, hourly rates, basically any material and labor that goes into a project.The next shot is the "Assemblies" window. Assemblies are built out of Cost Items. How long does it take to hang a square foot of drywall? What materials are needed? How about on a high ceiling? How about a vault? With Goldenseal, I can custom build an assembly for almost any scenario. Another great thing about Goldenseal is that it is a relational database. Want to give yourself a raise? Change your rate in Cost Items and all of your assemblies are automatically updated. Estimates that you have submitted remain untouched.The "Estimate" window uses all of the Assemblies you have, along with any cost item you want to include individually. You can also enter anything that might be a one time item, or labor for a project that can't be built from your Assemblies.The pdf is the standard estimate printout I use. You can print estimates in six different ways. The pdf is a category only estimate. If you're brave, you can print out an estimate with everything listed in line items, including overhead and profit. I personally think that's asking for trouble. My form rolls O&P right into the subcategory prices. One thing I really don't like is the way the price is printed right down to the cent. I always rounded my prices to the nearest five before Goldenseal. It looks kind of dumb to have a price of "$5407.19". If you're spending nearly 5.5 K, the .19 is kind of ridiculous.You may think it's a hassle to keep the cost items updated, but it really isn't. I just go over my monthly bill from the lumberyard and check to see if anything has changed. It usually takes about a half hour. I find that I tend to use the same items over and over anyway.You also may think it's not worth it for a smaller company to use estimating software. It is! I was strictly a one man show up until a few weeks ago.The one great thing about most estimating software is that it makes you be honest with yourself. I constantly had the urge to keep my labor estimates down as much as possible, sometimes to get the job, sometimes because I'm just way too optimistic about how long a task takes. Now I just print that baby and send it out, rather than agonizing about the price.Be warned, it will take a LOT of time to set this thing up. I put probably 40 hours into it before I halfway trusted the estimates, always comparing them with past jobs. I now have around 80 setup hours into it, and I feel it's only about half done. The estimating side is pretty well done. Now I need to tackle the accounting, which has always been a weak spot for me.I hope this helps make the program a little clearer. I'm not the best at concise writing! If anyone has any specific questions, I'd be glad to try to answer them. Turtle Creek Software also has a message board on their website where you can ask questions.True North
True North
Thanks for posting the estimates and assemblies.
I am always interested in how other people estimate and the tools they use.
You also may think it's not worth it for a smaller company to use estimating software. It is! I was strictly a one man show up until a few weeks ago. No way I think you are wise to put tools to work. Did you hire an employee?
I have used the Craftsman program so I think I understand how this works.
My question is with the updateing of the costs. You go in monthly and record the price of say 1/2' sheetrock. Then the program figures this into the SF price of sheetrock?
Does Goldenseal assign a different labor rate for different tasks say demolition versus trim work? It sounds like you can set your own rates.
With the Craftsman program there are different labor rates for different tasks. But in doing an estimate you can set the labor rate at the beginning of an estimate.
How does the information get from the Assemblies to the estimate? Do you do that manually or does it do it automatically? Or do you cut and paste the info you want?
Do you get any questions from HO about charges like site conditions? I can't remember the other ones both were $107 and cents.
Now I just print that baby and send it out, rather than agonizing about the price. I am striving to get there.
I truly appreiciate you sharing this with us. Thank you again.
Rich
Hi Rich,I got your message earlier but wanted to wait till I could respond properly.As far as updating cost: Yes, when a cost item is updated it affects the assemblies that use it. If sheetrock prices rise or fall, the sf price rises or falls.Labor rates are adjustable. When I build an assembly, I wouldn't use the "Skilled Carpenter" rate at $28 an hour for picking up old shingles when I can enter the rate for a laborer, at $15.Entering information into an estimate is really easy. The "Cost Area" line has a drop down menu with options you can choose from. For my example I'll use "Assembly". This will allow me to choose from any of the assemblies I have made. Alternately, I can choose Assembly Labor, Assembly Material, Percentage of Labor, Percentage of Material, and so on. From there I arrow key over to the "Cost Item" bar. I can start typing the first letters of the entry I need and a drop down list appears. Hit "Enter" when the entry you want is highlighted, add the quantity you need and head to the next item.You can make estimate templates for jobs you perform often, like roofing, etc. All the line items are there, you just need to enter the quantities. This REALLY helps, as it keeps me from forgetting items.I've never been questioned about any of the line items, like "Site Conditions". If I was, I'd probably tell them what the charge is for, whether it's dumpster fees, setup time, or whatever. I won't tell them that an estimating charge is in there! ;) I can hear it now: "But I thought it was free!"Estimating is a subject that I am very interested in. I estimated so badly for so long, and any help I can get I snap right up.It is really great to hear how other people in the trades estimate. I still can't believe it when I hear my local competition say "all decks are $12 a foot", or "all roofing is $180 a square". This is the attitude that we in the trades need to shake! I recently raised the labor rate I use in my estimates to $34 an hour. I know that's pretty low for the guys here, but in my area a "pricey" guy charges $25 an hour. I used to do that, and just couldn't understand how I could work so hard and make so little. At $25, I owned a job, not a business.After seven years of word of mouth, I'm working at doing some marketing. I got my van lettered, bought a year's worth of ads in the business card section of the weekly fishwrapper, and I'm planning on making some signs to put out by the road near my house. Any other ideas?Take care, T.N.
True North
I've been in business since 1986. I didn't have enough knowledge or skills but my boss was an alcoholic and the economy was bad, so I just struck out on my own.
Working with him we were working on the nicest new construction in town. On my own I started doing any job I could land. Still doing pretty much that. Remodeling and repair.
Most jobs are under $5K. Unusally 1 day to 3 weeks. The new construction market is competitive and I have always found that I can make more per hour doing the jobs no one else wants.
Most years I do no advertising. This year I started running a ad in the local paper that runs daily, in the business section. Color for $140/ month.
One of our vechiles is lettered. I bought a new used van that I have not lettered yet. I don't have the answer on how to market my business. We are in a small town 10,000, so most of my customers know me or are repeat customers.
I have gotten some work from a local carpet furniture store. I buy my appliances there and he directs job my way ( it's usually stuff no one else wants). Sometimes it is underlayment for insurance and sometimes I have to cut a cabinet to make the new fridge work. I try to make it work for him.
I stay away from yard signs. I think it looks tacky. I would think differently if I was doing new construction, but for remodeling, I'd feel stupid asking a customer if i could put a sign in their yard. Let my van lettering do the work.
My two sons 22 and 25 years old are working for me. After doing the thread "How do you speed up estimating" I raised my rates from $35/hr to $40/hr. I also started marking up materials 20% instead of 10%.
I am know for being expensive. I know of alot of other guys who charge $25/hr and no material markup. After the previous thread I have decided not to worry about what my competition charges. Mike Smith is right, most people don't get multiple bids.
Most people have already decided who they are comfortable working with before they call a contractor.
I stopped putting money in my IRA last year to catch up on some loans. I am just now getting to the point where I am ready to start investing in myself again. At $35/hr I was just making it.
My house is paid for and of all of my vechiles have 100K plus miles on them. So we don't waste money.
After the "How do you speed thread" I have decided I need to do a better job in the office of estimating for a profit, tracking my time (a work in progress) and being more efficient on the job.
I have posted spreadsheets before that I use to do calculations and have prices handy. I use National Estimator to check myself. I just got it a couple of months ago and I haven't learned to rely on it yet.
Come spring and fall I like to do roofing. Easy to estimate for a profit, everyone on the crew knows just what to do and the customer has limited material choices. The boys can usually make an extra $5/hour and I can make $15 to $20/hr extra. I bid them high and if I don't get them, I don't fret.
Steep 2 story 3 layer tear offs are hard to be profitable on. I am going to avoid them in the future.
Back to Turtle Soft. Do you do follow up on your jobs and track your time? So that you know how long it takes your company to hang a new entry door for example.
I've rambled on long enough.
Rich
rich... all signed up for JLC-Providence...
when you go, look up two of the demonstrators... Rick Arnold & Mike Guertin
from North Kingstown, RI
have you looked over Guerilla Marketing yet ?
<<<
I stay away from yard signs. I think it looks tacky. I would think differently if I was doing new construction, but for remodeling, I'd feel stupid asking a customer if i could put a sign in their yard. Let my van lettering do the work.>>>
the yard signs have the same logo ( LOGO ) as your trucks... your letterhead has the same logo
your newspaper ad has the same logo
what happens is they all reinforce each other in creating a message in your prospective customers mind
soon .. they will stop you and say " i see you all over town"
like last week.. someone in the grocery store said.." i see your trucks everywhere"
well, heck , there's only two of them
but they also see the job signs.... and the news ad (weekly in our case )
and ... you have 4000 more people than we do...
hah,hah,hah....let's hear it for small towns
as for "reputation for being expensive"..... maybe..but you and i know.. we ain't getting rich..
i think i charge what it costs to do good work... and i pay my bills
but i bet i have the same reputation you have tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
... all signed up for JLC-Providence...
when you go, look up two of the demonstrators... Rick Arnold & Mike Guertin
I'll do that.
Do you have any advise on what to access there at JLC? I have been thinking of starting a thread about this. I have never gone to one. Will the intensive classes on Wed and Thurs be applicable to a small remodeling/repair business. I know most of it will be over the heads of my sons.
I am sure the Fri /Sat sessions will be good for all of us.
have you looked over Guerilla Marketing yet ? No. What is it?
I will try to post my business card, which is the same as my ad, which is almost the same as my van lettering. Keep it simple.
A roofing friend of mine ( commercial, big jobs) told me to always keep an ad running even if you have work. it keeps your name out in front of people.
as for "reputation for being expensive"..... maybe..but you and i know.. we ain't getting rich..
i think i charge what it costs to do good work... and i pay my bills
but i bet i have the same reputation you have too
Several new customers have told me my references all told them the same thing " He is more expensive, but it will be done right" . I'll take that.
.." i see your trucks everywhere" I have an old "landfill truck" 67' Ford 600 with a 16' bed. I loaned it out to a guy to do a roof. For a week after that people kept asking me how it was going on the roof job.
Rich
jlc... i signed up for the wed Chief Architect... Gary Doski is a good iinstructor and he's teaching the new version i haven't looked at yet
i signed up one of my guys on "running a design / build company"
i'll look over the brochure / descriptions and we can discuss it
there's a thread called JLC-Live Providence Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
I don't believe the Minneapolis schedule is not out yet, but I believe it will be similar to RI.
We don't do much designing or need Chief A. Sometimes I will help a HO design a kitchen or a bath.
Mostly work with existing structures to modify or repair.
Rich
Mike
Here's my business card/ advertising/ van logo.
Rich
"Steep 2 story 3 layer tear offs are hard to be profitable on. I am going to avoid them in the future."Raise your prices till your are profitable? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
I don't want them that bad. The boys don't really want to do them any moreeither and they are young.
I have done bunch of them too.
Too much risk in exposing the house to the weather, risk to injuries.
We always set up pump jacks and a work platform with a saftey rail, and then park the truck below to catch the tear off.
The undocumented workers don't use any scaffolding and very little in the way of even toe holds.
Nicest one we did was with a skytrack and a 14' work platform. We removed the front rail, laid some 1/2" ply extending out and around the sides of the platform.
We extended the platform and laid it on the roof. All of the tear off went into the giant bucket that we then dumped into the truck. Tore up the yard pretty bad. I warned the HO that was going to happen.
This was a big one. With the porches and the flat roofs it was 48-50 Sq. The eave was about 28' off the ground. It was 25-27' from the eave to the peak. That's a long way on a 12/12.
But with the platform below us it was like working on the ground.
Anyway I am losing interest in the 2 story tear offs.
Rich
Hey Rich,Finally getting back to you.Yes, I do job costing after my projects are completed to see how accurate I was. Sometimes I use my R.S. Means book to enter a time value for something I haven't done before, or am unsure of, and I always try to check up on those. R.S. Means can be surprisingly accurate.I would love to go to JLC Live this fall. I'm a believer in continuing education in the trades. A saying I like is "So you have 20 years experience? Is that really 20 years, or is it one year 20 times over?" It's a condition that is sadly prevalent in my area.You come from a big city (to me). My entire county has around 6000 people in it!I've enjoyed "talking" with you. T.N.
Edited 2/23/2008 4:37 pm ET by True North
Good Afternoon True North
I don't know what R.S. Means is. Is it a costbook?
I am trying to put together my own Cost Summary in Excel to track my time. I am not sure how do the format yet.
If you have anything you could post to show me how you track time I would appriecate it.
JLC should be good. I am mostly self taught (trade and business) so it would do me good to be around experts.
Here is a page from my Cost Summary. I have pages for Roofing, siding, interior doors, exterior doors, Ect. I have about 16 categories now.
I enjoyed talking with you too.
I am going to post a question about National Estimator. That doesn't mean that I have rejected Turtle Soft. I am just trying to get information before I make a commitment.
Rich
Hi Cargin,R.S. Means is just another costbook, like Craftsman, et al.I've been following your thread on the Craftsman stuff. I didn't know that there were downloadable costbooks. I may just have to give that a try.I hope I didn't come across as pushing Turtlesoft on you. It's just a program that I happen to like; that doesn't mean it's for everyone!Take care, T.N.
Edited 3/8/2008 5:40 pm ET by True North
True North
You're not pushy at all.
We have been slow at work, but we are doing home improvement projects, so I haven't had time to download a free trial of Turtle Soft. I want 1/2 a day to get into it if I do give it a try.
I downloaded the Insurance cost book in Nov. for about $25 just to check it out.
Then just recently I got the whole think for $69. So far I have been using the Construction Cost book and the Framing and Finish carpentry along with the Insurance cost book.
It takes some time to figure out what is what.
This is an area that I am weak in (or I avoid doing estimates) so I enjoy talking about it.
Hope you can come down to JLC in Minneapolis.
Rich
Rich
Edited 3/7/2008 9:41 am ET by cargin
True North
I have mentioned before that I like to use the National Estimator as a backup to my standard method of estimating. Nothing can replace the experienced eye for estimating a job. You have to see the conditions and the PIA situations and assign them a value.
I have to fight excessive optimism when estimating, henceforth the backup.
I do all my estimating on Excel. I have posted an earlier version ( on How do you speed up estimating) of this but I will do it again to see if I can stir up some conversation.
Maybe I am like a kid with a calculator that is fascinated by how it works but i like to build worksheets on Excel that solve estimating problems.
Now that Tim is out of the house, TV doesn't interest me much and BT is fun to a point, so if I have some time on my hands I fiddle with Excel and estimating programs.
This is a vinyl siding worksheet. The SF calculator is the data sheet, it supplies all the raw numbers. Just fill in the yellow cells. The Vinyl siding worksheet is my standard way of estimating. The gray cells have formulas in them, so the SF calculator sheet generates the data and the worksheet has the material prices. Labor has to be figured manually or the PIA stuff.
I did a 20' x 32' addtion for this example.
The National Estimator worksheet has numbers from the costbooks for SF items and the data comes from the SF calculator sheet. The Totals for the Standard method and the National Estimator appear on the last sheet.
To view it best open an Excel sheet and copy and paste the worksheet. I don't know how this will work but I thought I would give it a try. Every time I put stuff out there it causes me to review my work and find the errors. And it gives me a chance to get feedback from BTers.
Rich
Hey Rich,I'm downloading your file and will look it over this weekend. Well, the rest of it anyway. :)
TN
I was just sitting at the computer reviewing old threads and saving links on a word document of anything that I may want to refernce in the future. I keep a Breaktime file of stuff that is of interest.
I often read something good and 6 months later I can't find it.
About the file, i'm just trying to stir up some conversation.
Have a good weekend. I'm going to grill some burgers pretty soon. Gotta put the grill in the shop to get it warmed up though.
Rich
True
I have also decided that the boys and I need to go to JLC Live in Minneapolis this fall.
Need the education and the exposure to people who do the trades and the business better that I do.
Rich
Thanks True North, I've checked out the website. Is it worth it to spring for the more expensive $695. version?
To be honest, unless you know you'll be using the accounting, no. I did thinking I would (and I still might), but I haven't to date. I bought the program just before the price went up. The full version was $495 at that time. I'd still buy the estimating only at the current price. In my opinion, the estimating is the program's strong side.
http://www.mac4construction.com/?cat=3