I am about to build my first deck for a client who wants a 12 by 11 split level deck on a level ground. My client wants the deck done in fir and mahaghony. I am asuming $80 per hour for myself and a helper. I really am not sure how long the job will take, so I am interested in knowing what some of you might charge for this task.
Handy Dan
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Decks are normally done per sq ft plus more $$s for extras like expensive material (mahogany) , lots of steps, etc. The # of hours it takes you to do the job is not of a direct concern to your customer. Around here a normal charge might be $6 - $7 per sq ft for the labor not including materials for working in an existing home type of situation. Undoubtedly Boston labor charges (cost of living) is higher though.
Matt - "Decks are normally done per sq ft "
Decks are normally done per sq ft??? They are??? I don't know about that. Anyone who really understands how to estimate isn't going to do a deck by the SF they're going to use a Unit Cost estimating method. A while back I wrote a paper called the Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating and it just so happened that the example I used to illustrate he problem with using a SF cost was building a deck.
There was also a really good article in the March issue of JLC called Business: The Myth & Math of Square-Foot Cost by Dennis A. Dixon that you may want to check out too.
"The # of hours it takes you to do the job is not of a direct concern to your customer."
No it's not important to the customer but it certainly is to Handy Dan. That's one of the key numbers he needs to know to figure out what to charge as a lump sum for this whole deck project. Assuming Dan has a good material quantity takeoff the formula for what to charge for the deck would be:
(Total Labor Hours X Loaded Labor Rate*) + (Material Costs X Materials Markup) = Project Price
(*assuming the Loaded Labor Rate already includes $$ in it for Net Profit)
Now the Total Labor Hours is the simple sum of time he figures for:
Surveying & Excavating for Pier Footings
Pouring the Concrete Piers
Setting any Post & Beams
Setting any Ledgers
Installing the Deck Framing System
Installing the
Deck Surfacing
Fabricating and Installing any Stairs
and Installing the Railing System
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Jerrald,How much did you charge for you post here?(joke)Good work and lots of good info.
I recently got under bid by the Imfamous
"contractor with a more reasonable bid"Damn his price x sqft. estimates! I wasted an afternoon to site visit, measure and meet the client and write out a professional estimate.My neighbor is a buddy of client and referred me, client got a second estimate the same day over the phone???? Um, yeah...price x sqft. site unseen How is this even possible?
LEMONJELLO - "I recently got under bid by the Imfamous
" contractor with a more reasonable bid"
Damn his price x sqft. estimates!
"
Ya know one way of looking at it is the good thing about bidding against a contractor who is a Square Foot Estimator is that when Price is the only consideration while you may lose out to him or her on the more complex jobs they will be over priced on the simpler easy ones.
Then while they are working the more complex difficult jobs that they under priced they will make more errors costing them even more money and they are then soon out of the business. Meanwhile you have those easier less error prone projects that you always make money on and you are building your reputation as a "quality" contractor.
It's important for us to remember that it's not important to win every job we go to look at. It's only important to win the ones we know we can make money on.
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Edited 5/6/2006 5:42 pm ET by JerraldHayes
Word.
I agree with you about SF pricing, but here in the Houston area, most quotes are by the SF. Builders, pool companies, landscapers etc. who have decks built often hire related to a SF price from the sub.
I offset the dangers by simply figure labor, material, overhead and profit and then arrive at a SF price. I can then check my SF price against others who are quoting SF pricing.
Note that rail is quoted as a LF price, and I take the same approach.
Agreed.
If you do enough decks (or anything for that matter), you can determine a sf cost. It is obviously based on your labor rate and productivity and material cost. Most deck builders in my area will give you a sf cost range, but ofcourse will want to see the conditions before giving you a formal estimate proposal. Most decks are constructed the same way, so depending on complexity and material, an experienced deck builder should be able to average the cost over deck area to come up with a sf cost. And yes a railing is an additional based on a lf cost.
SF costs are used all the time for assessing complex building projects such as office towers, museums or hospitals, heck we have even used them on subway renovation work. They all range somewhat but those in the industry use them all the time. In fact costs are often tweaked to reach a certain expected or agreed upon sf cost.
TGNY - "Agreed.
If you do enough decks (or anything for that matter), you can determine a sf cost....
....
Most decks are constructed the same way, so depending on complexity and material, an experienced deck builder should be able to average the cost over deck area to come up with a sf cost."
No that just not true and that an unfortunate myth that some many contractor fall prey to and don't even know it. Did you read the example I gave in Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating? SF numbers wont ever work out unless you build the exact same shape and size of deck each time! The shape which affect the ratio of the LF of railing and the number of support piers is affected by the shape of the deck! Two decks having the exact same Square Footage can have radically different numbers of Piers or LF of Railing! (You might also want to take a look at Dennis A. Dixon's The Myth & Math of Square-Foot Cost too).
"SF costs are used all the time for assessing complex building projects such as office towers, museums or hospitals, heck we have even used them on subway renovation work. They all range somewhat but those in the industry use them all the time. In fact costs are often tweaked to reach a certain expected or agreed upon sf cost. "
While Square Foot Estimate are used all the time in this industry I really don't think you really understand the context under which they are properly and effectivly used. Used correctly they are generally used in preliminary planning and often come with the caveat that they contain a ±15-20% error. Final bids are done as detailed Unit Cost Estimates.
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You obviously don't estimate in the real world, or at least the scale of your jobs must be quite low that a 5% swing will be detrimental to your bottom line. True, for a handyman that is working solo, they may need the detail, but who can predict their productivity that accurately, and if they can, then a sf cost is not hard to derive.
Now in the real world of commercial estimating, many contractors not only use sf numbers, but often LS (lump sum) whole assemblies such as a stair adjoining office floors or allow a certain dollar amount for unknowns. They cover their azzes 6 ways from Sunday. I have rarely seen someone detail the exact amount of conc. slab removal, number of beams to remove, slab edge detail to repair, tonnage of stringers, etc for that stair. Same way in residential estimating, roofing is by sf including the vents and drip edge, electrical is by point, plumbing is by fixture. These are averages that are established benchmarks. Yes they can vary, but a bathroom usually has a toilet, a tub a sink in a certain proximity to each other, if theres a bidet, they'll charge for the additional fixture. Do they get in trouble this way, I think not, given they continue to build and make handsome profits. When I do a reconciliation with a CM or GC our estimates are often within 10% and then we level to under 5%. Pick up a copy of the Construction Bluebook NY/NJ edition (available online) and look under estimating firms, see all those names, I bet everyone utilizes sf costs. You want to tell me they are all doing it wrong cause you got some convoluted spreadsheet. Good for you. Few contractors would ever spend the time to detail every nut & bolt for that would be a sure way to end up working at Home Depot.
TGNY - "You obviously don't estimate in the real world, or at least the scale of your jobs must be quite low that a 5% swing will be detrimental to your bottom line."
Well I don't know about that at all. As specialty subcontractors we've built staircases that run from $2000 to $240,000 and as GCs we've built homes whose costs have run to 1.6 million so I'm not at all wet behind the ears TGNY. Indeed as I mentioned above I think you are really having trouble understanding Square Foot estimating within the context it is being talked about here.
"True, for a handyman that is working solo, they may need the detail, but who can predict their productivity that accurately, and if they can, then a sf cost is not hard to derive. "
On that we agree! And incase you didn't read the first post in this topic the fellow who is asking for help is a small handyman operation and for such a for such a small operation you can't have that kind of variation or risk (±15-20%) in an estimate or quote. Indeed you can't have that kind of variation in multimillion dollar lump sum quote either or you'll soon be out of business (only a larger firm may have the cash in the bank to absorb an error like that where the small new one or two man shop might not). I was reading just the other day in a George Hedley book where the big commercial contractors have typical average Net Profit of only 3-5%!
Now here's the rub with respect to context that your just not clicking on yet. A large commercial contractor does not estimate an bid a 120,000 SF Condominium Complex based on a SF price that he or she has for building a condominium complex! They develop a detailed Unit Cost Estimate!
Now the numbers they use in developing their Unit Cost Estimate for the decks that are on each one of the 100 units in the complex they may very well and probably do use a SF Price because in the context of the size of their project that SF number is going to be accurate enough because over the course of 100 deck (assuming they aren't exactly the same) the ±15-20% inherent in that SF price is tempered and averages out. In fact when trying to determine the average Standard Deviation or Variance for doing multiple deck by the SF you don't average the sum of the individual variances, you take the average sum of squares of each individual standard deviation so the actual percentage of error for 100 decks in that complex may very well be less than ±5%.
In the case I just illustrated using a SF number for a deck is to use that SF number as a Unit Cost in a Unit Cost Estimate. That condominium complex contractor is not doing what I am referring to as a Square Foot Estimate! A Square Foot Estimate is a one line item estimate. That condominium complex contractor has hundreds of line items in his Unit Cost Estimate. Now he or she certainly doesn't develop the estimate for a project of that magnitude down to the numbers of joist hangers and railing pickets in the deck because that kind of granularity (due to the sum of the squares rule) isn't going to make his or her estimate any more accurate.
But for Joe's Deck Building Company who is developing his bid estimate for Mr. Condominium Complex Contractor he is going to develop a Unit Cost Estimate to the level of granularity that works for him and it not going to be just a Square Foot Number. He'll look at the job to at least the degree of granularity I illustrated in my paper. In fact I have a large contracting client (in fact more than one) who uses my software to build decks and outdoor structures and they have developed Unit Cost data base of hundreds of items they may want to consider when building a deck. they do not rely on a SF number for building decks.
"Now in the real world of commercial estimating, many contractors not only use sf numbers, but often LS (lump sum) whole assemblies such as a stair adjoining office floors or allow a certain dollar amount for unknowns. They cover their azzes 6 ways from Sunday. I have rarely seen someone detail the exact amount of conc. slab removal, number of beams to remove, slab edge detail to repair, tonnage of stringers, etc for that stair. Same way in residential estimating, roofing is by sf including the vents and drip edge,..."
Yeah that is more or less true for the GC doing his estimate of the whole structure (although as GCs we and others I know do break down roofs a little further into lengths of valleys ridges and the perimeter because those areas are often cost intensive especially when you are talking about copper so a straight SF number still might not be accurate as we would like it) but the real professional specialty roofing contractor doesn't rely on just the square footage of the roof to produce his or her estimate. They develop a Unit Cost Estimate considering the different components of the roof system.
"...Pick up a copy of the Construction Bluebook NY/NJ edition (available online) and look under estimating firms, see all those names, I bet everyone utilizes sf costs. "
Yes thank you I have a copy and in fact have interviewed a fellow who runs one of them to talk to him about estimating for something I am writing and I happen to know for a 100% fact that yes they do use SF numbers (as Unit Costs) but they develop Unit Cost Estimates for their clients not Square Foot Estimates.
"You want to tell me they are all doing it wrong cause you got some convoluted spreadsheet. Good for you. Few contractors would ever spend the time to detail every nut & bolt for that would be a sure way to end up working at Home Depot."
I'm not telling you THEY are doing it all wrong at all. What I am telling you that you are grossly misinterpreting and misunderstanding what they are doing and just what the difference between a Square Foot and a Unit Cost estimate is.
Quoting Bob Kovacs quoting something he picked up from the Richardson Engineering Services book "Process Plant Cost Estimating Standards."
A Square Foot Estimate (a one line item type estimate) just doesn't have the granularity or accuracy to account for all those things.
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A sf cost is derived from unit prices, which in turn are derived from labor rates, productivity, material cost, logistics, fudge factors, what you ate for breakfast, etc. I do not dispute that. The estimates I prepare are unit cost estimates, often dozens of pages with many line items. These line items are priced by unit cost either by LF, SF, CY, SY, TON, EACH, etc.For example, 8" CMU block walls are hovering around $18 - $20/sf in the city. This is almost universally accepted by any major player building today in NYC. This cost can drop down to as little as $8/sf upstate non-union. True this unit cost will fluctuate depending on quantity (economy of scales) and or complexity (productivity).Concrete is bought by the CY, I barely see anybody break out costs into forms and rebar anymore, since the quantity of steel for a given cu. yd. is established by engineering requirements for a given situation. In otherwords most typical foundation walls that are 12" thick will use #5 rebar @ 12" O.C. both ways. If the steel prices spike as they have been for the last few years, the cost for placing a foundation wall by the CY will increase. Presently it is around $800 - $1000/cy again in NYC. When all the beans are counted up, the averages based on sf costs are readily discernible. In the construction industry, builders and designers always refer to the sf costs for establishing budgets from foundations to exterior envelopes, ultimately weighing the whole cost of the building on a sf basis. Not that I would base an estimate on published cost data, but construction industry sources such as RS Means and ENR (McGraw Hill), etc. collects and measures these cost fluctuations daily for a reason. You ever watch baseball? Wonder why they record and discuss all those statistics of all the players throughout the ages?Now back to the OP's deck question. Decks (like most building systems) are governed by building codes and accepted building practices. Yes this deck might be 12' high, or the railing is copper pipe instead of PT, or it's multi-level or has some curves. Fine, all these are upcharges against the basic deck construction sf cost of setting the posts, joisting and decking.Last month I prepared a $40 million estimate for a University bldg. in PA that was within 2% of the CM's number. We figured it would be close to $400/sf, worked out to $415/sf. When I built my house last year , I figured it would cost me around $110/sf. Even though I did do a detailed material and labor estimate, guess what, it cost $111.63/sf. These are real world examples of how sf cost are used, world over. You can tell me till you are blue in the face how they don't work, but you aren't very convincing. Good luck.
TGNY with all due respect everything you are doing estimating wise is entirely correct but everything you just described with the exception of your sixth paragraph is a mix of Unit Cost and Assemblies (aka Systems) Estimating and I heartily endorse estimating practice doing it the way you are describing it. You are using a Unit Cost methodolgy. And when you do use SF Estimating you are using it as a planning tool and second check.
But your argument and misunderstanding with me is over semantics.
There is a difference between "Square Foot Estimating" and "using Square Footage as a measurement of a Unit Cost" that you just don't want to concede on.
"Last month I prepared a $40 million estimate for a University bldg. in PA that was within 2% of the CM's number. We figured it would be close to $400/sf, worked out to $415/sf. When I built my house last year , I figured it would cost me around $110/sf. Even though I did do a detailed material and labor estimate, guess what, it cost $111.63/sf."
That's a very good example of using SF Estimating as a preliminary planning tool and having it work out nicely but I'm going to bet that that SF number is based on your experience with having built similar houses of roughly the same dimensions with the same level of features and finishes. But if you are so confident that SF estimating is so accurate all the time why perform a "detailed material and labor estimate"? You do it because you know a SF estimate isn't all that accurate.
I know a builder in rural CT who builds basically the same house, roughly the same size, with the same features over and over again and he effectively uses a SF estimating technique and probably is always within ±5% of his estimated costs. (Given his experience and consistency with his product if he was to so choose he could probably tighten that variance down to ±2% if he performed a Unit Cost Estimate and he could then put that 3% improvement in his pocket). But a number of the custom builders we work with here in Westchester and NYC have SF building costs that range from 150 to 425 per SF! They don't and would be foolish to rely on SF Estimates.
But getting back to the original posters question if you could explain to me just how should he go about using a SF price to price his first deck project how in tarnation is is he supposed use a SF estimate for his project?
And going to the example I wrote about in my paper the Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating explain to me how that deck contractor can effectively use a SF Estimating formula. The numbers and the math in the example don't lie. Like I mentioned earlier I've been in this debate of Square Foot Estimating vs. Unit Cost Estimating online since 1997 and no one has yet been able to tell me how the hypothetical deck contractor in my example can effectively use a SF Estimating formula for his projects and handle the problem with the discrepancy in cost between the two projects I illustrated in there.
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I regret that this has gotten so contentiuous, but when you state that I don't understand how to estimate, I take issue with that.
I really don't think you really understand the context under which they are properly and effectivly used. Used correctly they are generally used in preliminary planning and often come with the caveat that they contain a ±15-20% error. Final bids are done as detailed Unit Cost Estimates.
I think you have to go back and re-read all the posts to understand what was said. I did not suggest a first time deck builder could utilize a sf cost. You seem really hung up on disproving a universally accepted methodology. With all due respect, I have neither the time nor inclination to educate you on this matter.
I have written a lot in support of Jerrald, but I fully understand your point of view.
I have to deal with the same things...SF pricing for concrete work, framing, painting, drywall, floor covering installation, etc. But, all of my subs want to see the plans and specs prior to bidding. They submit their bid per SF, but know what is in the house.
As jerrald says, it is a matter of symantics. I think we are all talking of the same thing. It can not be denied that it is a standard in our industry that clients, subs, etc. speak in terms of SF pricing, but that should in no way refer to the method we use in determining a guaranteed cost. Anyone who quotes in terms of SF pricing only has some hard lessons to learn.
I just talked to my my concrete sub today. He charged a SF price on the last driveway, but our newest project has a huge driveway, pavilion slab and 1850 SF of pool deck. He is in route to view the project. No phone quote was avaliable, which I expected and understand.
After he views the project he will provide a SF price, but it only after his analysis of this particualr project.
My custom home bids are presented with a guaranteed total price, but the cost presentation may include septic system pricing, well cost, HOA fees, permits, culverts, driveway allowance, etc. The actual price for the house of lets say $175.00 per SF is based on my careful review plans and specs. The SF price is a product of labor, material, overhead and profit unit costing.
At initial inquiry I may resent a typical home package with the following disclaimer:
This document has been prepared as an introduction to the common home packages offered by Brothers Custom Works. Adjustments can be made to the features allowing for upgrades or reductions in cost. Some limitations and cost adjustments may be applicable to any and all home plans with reference and not limited to the overall size of the home, location of the home, lot conditions, local building codes, amount of Garage / Porch and non-living area square footage, number of bathrooms, etc.
It will be necessary for Brothers Custom Works to review and finalize plans, specifications, site conditions, code requirements, Homeowner Association requirements, and other buidout details prior to the presentation of a final guaranteed bid. Brothers Custom Works reserves the right to change terms, conditions and consequent pricing as necessary. Well / septic system / city permits and fees / propane tanks / and other items which vary from home to home provided at additional cost. This features document does not represent an offer to build from Brothers Custom Works.<!----><!----><!---->
Edited 5/9/2006 11:21 am ET by txlandlord
>> The SF price is a product of labor, material, overhead and profit unit costing.Agreed. Once you have this knowledge you have a SF cost you can use as a basis that gets adjusted depending on the conditions. But I doubt one has to go back and re-invent the wheel as far as what the productivity was on each deck ad nauseam.edit: didn't know 'a' was a censored word
Edited 5/9/2006 6:59 pm ET by TGNY
Estimating, estimating. What is the big deal if we been around long enough to pay the bills, keep and grow our company and personal estate and prepare for our retirement?
If a new and potential client called me tonight about a replacing an old concrete driveway with a new concrete driveway, asking what are potential cost. I'd tell them typically demo and haul is priced at about $2.00 per SF, and new driveways are priced between $3.75 and $5.25 per SF. I may tell them how to determine the square footage in their existing driveway and ask them if they want the new to be bigger than the old. From there I may get an appointment to visit the site, or have informed the client that they need to save their money and wait. Inthe later event I save the trip and bid time.
I have done enough new driveways to know I can make money at $3.75 given certain conditions, but I would add that I need to check conditions prior to a guaranteed price. If my final price was calculated at $6.45 per SF, I would have a good reason, and could explain the reason for higher cost to the client.
I have a very talented and fast deck builder. If materials are on site. He can build a 14' x 16' deck, one level, no rail in a day...... by himself. In fact, truthfully, he may go home early. He will charge us $3.00 per SF labor and furnish nails. He grosses $672.00 for the day. He is happy, I am happy and the client has a deck in day.
Adding.....he may never have visited the site. He knows from my description, pictures, plans and specs if $3.00 per SF will work or not.
One wierd thing that may happen with small rookie contractors is related to this example. Many are less experienced and therefore slower. If they use unit pricing, without an idea of market SF pricing, figure their labor is $40.00 per hour for himself and a helper, and he needs 25 hours to get the same project done....... he grosses $1,000.00. If he comes in my office with a unit cost price of $1,000.00 for labor, he is going home to watch Opra and not to work. Without knowing SF market labor pricing as a general guide he may price himself out of every project until he wises up.
EDIT: I may be as passionate about tis stuff as Jerrald.
Edited 5/9/2006 8:40 pm ET by txlandlord
Tex:
My position is the same as yours on this topic. I stated my take early in the thread and got promptly blasted. Rather than responding, I decided to wait and see what differing opinions were raised. I think that the only modification to my initial statement of SF pricing plus extras is that this method is for someone who is already good at the task - building decks in this case. I think that your last post underlines the fact that for the guy who isn't already good at it, the $40 or $60 an hour a tradesman wants to make may not be appropriate.
Another example might be my footer guy - he charges by the linear foot of trench, plus so much for a pier, plus so much for a step pad plus so much for a step in the strip footing. He doesn't have to figure in extra for hard dirt, for footers that go 1.5 times deeper because of soft dirt, or for rocks (that are small enough for one of his mini-excavators to easily pick up). He doesn't worry about steep sites either - that is covered by the extra price for the steps in the strip footings. He and his guys are good at what they do, don't screw around, and are in and out in less than 1/2 a day, and then return for an hour or 2 for the pour after the inspection. If someone was to figure his hourly rate based on what he charged on a job, it might seem very high even with all the overhead of all the equipment he owns. But they are that good.
Matt,
I have to agree with you. We live in a different world down here. If everyone else in town is building decks for 6 to 7 dollars per sf labor then you have two options....learn how to turn a profit at this price or find something else to do.I know what I can build most decks for per sf labor and materials so when a homeowner calls me on the phone and says do you give free estimates, I say yes it will be about xx a sf, but understand this is an estimate. If this price does'nt scare em off then I will gladly go look at the job and give them a real price, but if they want a $8,000 deck and they only have $3,500 then I just saved myself alot of time.People in general just don't have any idea what it cost to build stuff nowadays.
I had a lady whose daughter works with my wife call me about a month ago and ask me if I would come and give her a price on some work at her house. After talking to her for a few minutes she proudly told me that she had already gotten 5 bids.....the lowest was $325 and the highest was $400....yet she wanted another bid. I politely declined and bought lunch with the gas money that it would have cost me to drive to her house.
........Her daughter told my wife two days ago that she's still looking for a contractor(LOL)...for some people free would'nt be cheap enough!
There was a HO who posted here about 4 or 5 years ago. He said he had gotten something like 9 bids on a re-roof, and was all confused about some flashing details, etc, as he had gotten varrying advice from some of the guys who came out for the bid. You can imagine the response he got here!
:-)
>>Without knowing SF market labor pricing as a general guide he may price himself out of every project until he wises up. Well said TX! Again I am on the same page with you. Here's how I would do a detailed estimate on that 14'x16'(224 sf) deck you described out here in eastern Long Island. I figure 2 guys for 3 days (we've gotta dig our footers 3' down). The costs in the Hamptons are generally very expensive, but the numbers I'm using are not the highest. I've heard of carpenters charging $75/hr+. The illegal day laborers are getting $15/hr+.Material: $2500
5/4x6 #2cedar decking - 500'
2x6 cedar 6/12' & 2/16'
2x2 cedar pickets - 100each
2x10 ACQ 8/16' & 13/14'
6x6 ACQ 2/10'
4x4 ACQ 5/12'
18 80lb bags stonemix
hangers,anchors,nails,lags,sonotube,etc.
NY state tax 8.625%Labor Rate:
Carpenter $50/hr + Helper $20/hr + O&P $50/hr = $120/hr x 8 hrs. = $960 ~ say $1000 a dayLabor: 3 days x $1000 = $3000
layout/dig holes/pour concrete/place anchors = 1 day
set posts/beams/ledger/joists/decking = 1 day
50' picket railing/2 sets of 4' wide/2tread steps = 1 dayTotal deck cost: $5500/224sf = $24.56/sf ~ say $25/sfWhen I called around last summer for deck costs, describing a one level deck, 3' above grade, picket rail, 2 sets of steps, I was quoted $25-$30/sf. Unfinished, lattice skirting extra.edit: I don't know if I'm passionate about it, but it's how I make my living.
Edited 5/10/2006 12:09 am ET by TGNY
Folks, please stop pricing residential work by the SF! My background before I pursued carpentry was in commercial estimating and I can tell you estimating in commercial work is extremely different then in custom residential work.
There is absolutely no way to price custom residential work and make a profit or be competitive. So you price a project with a detailed calculation and you lose the job to a guy who underbid you with a sf price. Would you do the work for his price? No? Afraid to lose the money? Or even better... you get the job because your price is better than the SF guy. Feel comfortable about your detailed estimate? Yes? Great, go do the job and make some money. You'll beat those SF guys all the time.
txlandlord - "I agree with you about SF pricing, but here in the Houston area, most quotes are by the SF. Builders, pool companies, landscapers etc. who have decks built often hire related to a SF price from the sub."
Are you saying that when Danny's Decks (the sub) gives a quote for a particular project to Joe Builder or Paul's Pools (the builder) that instead of giving a quote of $15,300 they give a quote that says $19.20 per SF instead? That is just so insanely stupid...but ya know what? That kind of stuff happens around here too. But it's still stupid and unprofessional.
Here's a little story of how that quoting a SF price plays out. There a builder I know who is actually a neighbor of mine that absolutely knows that SF pricing doesn't work but he also knows he can play that to his advantage when working with some subcontractors. A couple o years ago he asked us to quote him interior finish work on a project and after doing a take-off and Unit Cost estimate and handing over to him a lump sum proposal he asked me "so how much per SF is that?"
I told him I didn't know because I didn't know how many SF the project was since it was totally irrelevant to me producing the estimate and quote. We install finish woodwork (trim) based on the linear footage required, doors are installed on a per unit basis, same thing for hardware, and the only thing on his job that was measured by the SF was paneling and the square footage of paneling required has no relationship to the square footage of floor space in that room.
He then say I have Joe Blow that will finish the job for $XX and John Doe for $YY. He just wanted to bid shop us against some other less experienced finish guys he had who were foolishly quoting him SF prices to finish his project (and we wouldn't play that game). Talking to him at a cocktail party maybe a year or two later I found out he was the kind of contractor who likes to squeeze his subs to get the lowest price he can.
What happens is most young or neophyte contractors rather than taking the time to figure out just what their billing rate should be and develop some kind of Unit Cost Estimating System instead ask around for "what is the going SF price for framing" or "what is the going SF price for doing decks" and then they use that number to estimate and quote their jobs. I know because that's what I did when I started out too. They are more concerned about getting the jobs rather than getting the right jobs at the right price. Meanwhile they are using an estimating method that that contains and average error of ±15-20%. And that's only the average error, the standard deviation! Any one particular estimate could contain a even far greater variance!
They don't want to take the time or effort to develop a Unit Cost system because they are probably more comfortable and happy banging nails and they then figure as long as they are always working they will be okay because they are making money which just ain't true because on at least half of their jobs they are making up to 15 to 20% less than what they should be. They then argue that on the other jobs they will make 15 to 20% more than what they should be so it will all even out. But the reality is it doesn't even out because they didn't get those jobs that had the plus 15 to 20% error in their favor. Those jobs went to the guy who gave the right price in the first place by utilizing a Unit Cost Estimate.
"I offset the dangers by simply figure labor, material, overhead and profit and then arrive at a SF price. I can then check my SF price against others who are quoting SF pricing."
Why is it important to check your "SF Price" against what others are quoting? Who says the other are quoting the right price? Unless they are A-list contractors they probably aren't. The only thing that really matters is if it was the right correct price for your company to do the project adequately and return a Net Profit.
"Note that rail is quoted as a LF price, and I take the same approach."
Well that's a Unit Cost Estimate then and not a SF one although I happen to think that it's still better and more accurate to break up the deck structure into Framing and Decking because installing different decking materials and different decking techniques (screws vs. nails vs hidden fasteners) all take different amounts of time and they have nothing to do with how much time it takes to set the support framing.
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Jerrald,
I appreciate your passion.
"I offset the dangers by simply figure labor, material, overhead and profit and then arrive at a SF price. I can then check my SF price against others who are quoting SF pricing."
Why is it important to check your "SF Price" against what others are quoting?
The answer: becasue almost all others are giving SF prices. I do not adjust my figures after the comparrision. It is a take it leave it price. If I am high, I make sure the client knows what he is getting.
"Note that rail is quoted as a LF price, and I take the same approach."
Well that's a Unit Cost Estimate then and not a SF one although I happen to think that it's still better and more accurate to break up the deck structure into Framing and Decking because installing different decking materials and different decking techniques (screws vs. nails vs hidden fasteners) all take different amounts of time and they have nothing to do with how much time it takes to set the support framing.
My approach is to give a price for standard decking (Treated SYP) that is nailed down. I then have options for things like #1 select structural KDAT treated SYP / radiused edges / screws / IPE / composite / etc. Materials, labor, overhead and profit are figured into the options. Don't worry about me big daddy, I have been around the block so many times I built several of the homes on the block.
It is just a matter of fact that so much of the bidding in the home building industry is by the SF. Buiders and subs do it everyday. Many people call me and ask "What is the SF price for a 3000 SF home wiht a 2 car garage?" My answer, "Let me have your plans for 7 - 10 days."
Edited 5/8/2006 8:45 pm ET by txlandlord
Again, I concur. As you seem to have had alot of experience and build custom houses I'm sure you know what your own sf costs are based on what it has cost you to build a given house divided by the area of that house. This seems to be a no-brainer.
txlandlord - "Jerrald,
I appreciate your passion."
Well thanks. I've been at this Square Foot Price vs. Unit Cost debate since the old Remodeling Online Forums back in 1997.
JJH: Why is it important to check your "SF Price" against what others are quoting?
txlandlord - "The answer: becasue almost all others are giving SF prices. I do not adjust my figures after the comparrision. It is a take it leave it price. If I am high, I make sure the client knows what he is getting."
Well that's good, the take it or leave it part, but why not just give you price for a project as a Lump Sum Cost instead of a SF Price? And what do you do if they (the client) then expand on the project in a way that exploits and takes advantage of the SF price you quoted them by adding complexity?
(And I though you were exclusivly a homebuilder not a production trade contractor, what's up? (We're a hybrid, we like to think that we build "Projects" and those projects can be anything from a custom home to a trade show exhibits to stairs railings & architectural woodwork to themed environments))
"My approach is to give a price for standard decking (Treated SYP) that is nailed down. I then have options for things like #1 select structural KDAT treated SYP / radiused edges / screws / IPE / composite / etc. Materials, labor, overhead and profit are figured into the options. "
And that certainly sounds like Unit Cost Estimating technique to me and not a SF Estimate. So I ask again why then quote them the price on a SF basis. Just give them a Lump Sum for the project and let them figure out what the cost per SF is. That way you can't be backed into a corner when they try to add on to a project you quoted by using the SF price you gave them.
"It is just a matter of fact that so much of the bidding in the home building industry is by the SF. Buiders and subs do it everyday. Many people call me and ask "What is the SF price for a 3000 SF home wiht a 2 car garage?" My answer, "Let me have your plans for 7 - 10 days. "
Come on it doesn't take 7-10 days to give a SF estimate. A SF estimate only takes as long as it takes you to figure the square footage of the project. Maybe 60 seconds for a deck. Maybe five minutes for a 3000 SF home. With a 7- 10 day time frame you have to be breaking the project down into Unit Cost components.
To tell you the truth I don't think I have given a SF number out for a price in twenty years if ever and I certainly haven't ever used a Squre Foot estimate for a quote since I left my twenties. When somebody asks for a SF price for something I tell them why SF pricing is a dangerously misleading myth. And if they insist on with the question I might give them a range but tell them that's only worthwhile as a planning guide and to really nail down the price we need to perform a detailed cost estimate (a Unit Cost Estimate) on a set of developed plans.
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Edited 5/8/2006 10:58 pm ET by JerraldHayes
And what do you do if they (the client) then expand on the project in a way that exploits and takes advantage of the SF price you quoted them by adding complexity?
Clients are usually armed with SF figures from others, but they already know how I bid a project. The SF figure represents a simple comparrision. As typical of first bids, when they ask me for upgrades, extra footage, etc. I tell them I can get back with them and retreat to the office.
And I though you were exclusivly a homebuilder not a production trade contractor, what's up?
In 1999 my wife and I bought a landscaping / pool company. We ran the landscape / pool company as a part of our company, and have now spun off two companies River of Life Landscaping and Outdoor Environments. Both companies have very capable management, but often I am called in the help with bid / proposal presentations.
At the start, we had several salespeople, and so created a Bid Procedures document. Considering your passion for Unit Cost bidding, I think the doc would put a smile on your face. We have been using this method since 1999.
When somebody asks for a SF price for something I tell them why SF pricing is a dangerously misleading myth. And if they insist on with the question I might give them a range but tell them that's only worthwhile as a planning guide and to really nail down the price we need to perform a detailed cost estimate (a Unit Cost Estimate) on a set of developed plans.
Yep. If I had time I would locate one of several client primer letters explaining that very thing. We only produce a guaranteed bid after through examination of plans and review of specifcations.
handy dan boston - "I really am not sure how long the job will take, so I am interested in knowing what some of you might charge for this task."
Dan I wouldn't necessarily use any of the figures I have there in my Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating but if you can wait until tomorrow I have a some typical labor hour figures for deck building tasks that I can get for you and I think I can help you out. But I also have a couple of questions.
You say: "client who wants a 12 by 11 split level deck on a level ground."
Is that two 12 x 11 decks or one 12 x 11 deck split into two. If so how big is each section? How are the sections going to be supported ledger on one side and post/pier and beam on another? Or are the deck(s) small enough that they don't need beams and can be supported by posts supporting the framing assembly?
"My client wants the deck done in fir and mahaghony." They want a fir frame with mahogany decking? Why would they want a fir frame over a treated Southern Yellow Pine frame? Assuming it the good Genuine mahogany and not the cheaper Meranti/Luan I would want to protect my investment in the decking surface by having a better more rot resistant frame especially in New England.
"I am asuming $80 per hour for myself and a helper." That's good that you have a Labor Rate in mind but if I might ask just how did you come up with your labor rate figure?
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Many Thanks to Jerrald and all for your helpful advice. To Jerrald:
Dan: "client who wants a 12 by 11 split level deck on a level ground."
Is that two 12 x 11 decks or one 12 x 11 deck split into two. If so how big is each section? How are the sections going to be supported ledger on one side and post/pier and beam on another? Or are the deck(s) small enough that they don't need beams and can be supported by posts supporting the framing assembly?
Dan: There is one main deck three feet off the ground supported by post and beam on three sides and by the house on the fourth side. That deck is 12 by 11 feet. Adjacent to that and three feet higher is a small deck 3 by 8 foot deck which serves as a landing for the exterior door. The two decks are connected by six (?) steps.
I am planning on making the posts non-continuous to the handrail system.
Dan: "My client wants the deck done in fir and mahaghony." They want a fir frame with mahogany decking? Why would they want a fir frame over a treated Southern Yellow Pine frame? Assuming it the good Genuine mahogany and not the cheaper Meranti/Luan I would want to protect my investment in the decking surface by having a better more rot resistant frame especially in New England.
Dan: The posts, beams and joists are all PT. Then comes the deck, probably in mahaghony, probably meranti. (bad idea?) Then the handrail in fir or mahaghony. My client is following my recommendations, she just doesn't like the look of trex and suchlike composites.
Dan:"I am asuming $80 per hour for myself and a helper." That's good that you have a Labor Rate in mind but if I might ask just how did you come up with your labor rate figure?
Dan: My rate is $40 and hour and I pay my helper $15 an hour. $80 an hour helps to cover the costs of having a helper, though she has not agreed to that price and in any event is more focused on the overall cost.
handy dan boston - "There is one main deck three feet off the ground supported by post and beam on three sides and by the house on the fourth side. That deck is 12 by 11 feet. Adjacent to that and three feet higher is a small deck 3 by 8 foot deck which serves as a landing for the exterior door. The two decks are connected by six (?) steps."
So I'm guessing you're talking about something that looks like this:
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"I am planning on making the posts non-continuous to the handrail system."
I would too because 11 or 12' is too long a span to run unsupported unless you are using 2 x 10 or 12 framing which may make the deck look bulky. I don't really know what you jo looks like but I think I might use a post and beam set-up like this (in red):
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"Dan: The posts, beams and joists are all PT. Then comes the deck, probably in mahaghony, probably meranti. (bad idea?) Then the handrail in fir or mahaghony. My client is following my recommendations, she just doesn't like the look of trex and suchlike composites. "
Good, it was the framing material that I really was asking about. Meranti is fine, it really not a mahogany species, we call it "imitation mahogany" but it a nice relatively inexpensive decking material especially when compared to Genuine Mahogany. The genuine is rich folks stuff.
"My client is following my recommendations, she just doesn't like the look of trex and suchlike composites."
I generally don't like them either although I can see using them under certain circumstances. They still have their place and application.
"My rate is $40 and hour and I pay my helper $15 an hour. $80 an hour helps to cover the costs of having a helper,...."
The reason I brought that up was just as many contractors look to shortcut estimating by asking "what's the going SF Price for Blah Blah Blah is" they often do the same for hourly rates too and just pull a figure that they think will work from mid-air or hearsay. You might want to check out the freeware Excel PILAO Workbook I have to see how your rates really work out based on what your real numbers are. If you need help with it you can ask your questions here or call the number on the website too and I'll work you through it.
"....though she has not agreed to that price and in any event is more focused on the overall cost."
You shouldn't ever have to give her your hourly rate (and in fact you should avoid ever bringing it up) and you are 1000% correct in keeping her focused on the value and overall cost of the project. Generally speaking without a solid understanding of the costs of running a handyman, remodeling or building business people will never rarely understand why your hourly rate is what it is. And it really unimportant too. When you buy a car you don't know what GM or Ford's hourly rate is. Same thing when you buy a groceries. You make your decision based on whether the car is or steak and lettuce is worth the money they are asking for it.
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Hi Jerrald
I read your paper on unit estimating with great interest. Estimating the job is the hardest part of the contractor's life and clearly each person needs to establish a routine they are comfortable with. In my case I have so little experience that even unit cost estimating doesn't help because this will be my first deck (With our new baby I haven't even finished my own deck!) Anyway I appreciate you detailed information and I hope to ask you other questions, starting with:
How did you upload the little sketch in your last posting?
Handy Dan
I agree with Jerrald. I have never been one to price things by the squre foot. I do about 15 - 20 decks a year and have yet to have two be exactly the same. I can build a 12 x 12 pt deck 3 feet off the ground alot quicker than if it is 12 feet from the ground. Every project has its own pros and cons and the best way to cover yourself is to price it hourly.
Good luck
Tim
Dan, I normally bid a basic deck the size you describe at $6/ SF including footings, frame, decking, and basic railing. With a split level, or more than 3-4 feet off the ground, there would be an additional charge. Benches, planters, or custom railings...additional charge. Customer wants to use screws instead of nails...30% additional charge. Stairs and landings...you get the picture.
For mahogany decking, your best bet will be to predrill and use SS screws....that takes time and you should charge accordingly.
When I first started out, I'd price by the hour b/c I had little experience on actual time required. As I've done more and more jobs, I've learned approximately how long a job will take and priced per SF to make that hourly rate pan out.
Don't overlook the PITA factor, too. Whether it's the job, the customer, whatever...if you think there's gonna be a hangup down the road, go ahead and pad your bid to suit.
BTW, I'm in Alabama--I'd hope in Boston things would pay better than here, but maybe not.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
I agree with soxfan and Jerrald Hayes 100%!!
I just got done estimating a deck and a cover and I did it exactly like I would estimate anything else, which is exactly how Jerrald wrote.
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
JasonPharez - "..... Customer wants to use screws instead of nails...30% additional charge. Stairs and landings...you get the picture."
But I don't get the picture Jason. While using screws vs. nailing down decking may make the installation of the decking surface 30% more expensive I don't see how it makes the footings, frame, and railing 30% more expensive. Do you see my point?
And re: "With a split level, or more than 3-4 feet off the ground, there would be an additional charge. "
How much of an additional charge and what is that additional charge based on? Estimating that way is just so arbitrary, subjective, and nonspecific it will lead you to a mix of jobs where some are money losers, some are just right, and some (if you get them) you will make some extra money on.
In some cases we can build the very same deck at ground level as we would 3 or 4 feet off the ground (the case I mentioned above where the deck framing is directly supported by the posts) but under some conditions that isn't possible because the deck framing needs to be seated on a beam and in that case there is extra labor and materials to fabricate and set that beam so it is "an additional charge". It all depends and the difference in price is based on the actual costs for the additional labor and materials.
And now about those railings. More often than not the most labor intensive part of doing a deck is the installation of the railings. I think it's foolish and you are giving money away figuring the railings in as part of an all inclusive SF price for a deck. You need to read more carefully my example in the Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating. (Railing are often the item that clients most often request changes of styles and looks in so breaking them out as distinct separate Unit Costs also helps in that regard too)
When I first started out (which coincidently was like you as a framing contractor who also built decks) I used a SF price that I would maybe tweak a little here and there based on what I thought we special conditions but as my estimating matured I moved to a Unit Price methodology where the different tasks or different systems in a structure had their own specific pricing. In addition to radically improving the accuracy of my estimating it also gave me an advantage over my competitors because I had this library of Unit Costs that allowed me to accurately and quickly price changes in the work too.
"Dan, I normally bid a basic deck the size you describe at $6/ SF including footings, frame, decking, and basic railing. ......
....BTW, I'm in Alabama--I'd hope in Boston things would pay better than here, but maybe not. "
I also think even if you want to ignore all the advice regarding using a Unit Cost system and stick to a SF System saying you charge $6/ SF in Alabama doesn't help him at all in Boston. How much more should he charge in Boston? 10% more? 100% more? There is no way for anyone to possibly figure that out. (plus you didn't say if that was for Labor and Materials or just Labor). Since he (handy dan boston) already has a labor rate he's working with saying something like "I figure .45 Labor Hrs per SF" or ".25 Labor Hrs per SF" would be more useful. While the dollar difference between Boston and Alabama is very different the exact same deck takes the same amount of Labor Hours in Boston as it does in Alabama (or Westchester, NY or Nebraska etc.).
I don't know why so many people here keep on talking about $$ instead of Labor Hours since dollars don't easily translate region to region while Labor Hours do.
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While using screws vs. nailing down decking may make the installation of the decking surface 30% more expensive I don't see how it makes the footings, frame, and railing 30% more expensive. Do you see my point?
How much of an additional charge and what is that additional charge based on?
Jerrald, I think Jason's point was that there are a lot of factors to consider. The deck needs to be analyzed and each component needs to be priced. I don't thbink he was trying to give the OP any numbers to bid with, but he was trying to illustrate the sometimes subtle factors that should be included in the estimate.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
FastEddie - "Jerrald, I think Jason's point was that there are a lot of factors to consider. The deck needs to be analyzed and each component needs to be priced. I don't thbink he was trying to give the OP any numbers to bid with, but he was trying to illustrate the sometimes subtle factors that should be included in the estimate."
Actually that was my point.
Each component or assembly in a deck (or any project for that matter) really needs to be considered in and of itself as it own distinct entity. Jason had written "Dan, I normally bid a basic deck the size you describe at $6/ SF including footings, frame, decking, and basic railing. " And to me that sounds like Jason is lumping several components (footings, frame, decking, & railings) that should really be estimated separately and not just lumped under one blanket SF cost which I think is problematic.
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