I was talking with this other contractor this morning about estimating techniques and methods and he was trying at first to tell me how he couldn’t estimate a base trim installation using a standard unit cost per foot because he lost money on his last job because the floors on the main floor of the house he was working on were all wavy because they were flagstone so all of his base trim had to be scribed and cut so it would fit tightly to the floor and it ended up taking them almost twice as long as the unit cost price told him it would.
My point to him was the benchmark unit cost figure for installing the base was okay but essentially what he did was fail to identify and estimate for what the business productivity and quality guru Edward Deming called Variation. He failed to identify where the basic task of installing base varied from the normal procedure and he didn’t estimate for that.
We talked a little bit about it at the time and I mentioned a few other “Estimating Gotchas” that you you have to look for and then estimate for when you are preparing a finish carpentry bid and that got me to thinking that there are still lot more more Gothchas out there so I thought I throw this out there and see what other estimating traps other BreakTimers here have run into so we could compile a list of things to look for when preparing an estimate that goes beyond just counting the sticks and bricks that are used in a project.
To get things started three of the things I mentioned this morning were
- Wavy or Buckled Floors– If you are installing something like a base trim that does have an additional piece such as a shoe molding (which is slightly flexible) you need to allow addition labor time for having to scribe the base to follow the floor.
- Out of Plumb Rough Openings– Out of plumb rough opening can add additional time when the trim is installed either from having to scribe for and add filler pieces behind the molding or having to tilt cut the miter joints to add a bevel to them to allow the casing to lie “flat” against the wall.
- Are There Sufficient Grounds or Blocking Installed – Trim, wall mounted hand railings and accessories such as towel racks need to be fastened to something other than just the sheet rock of plaster so it important to either make sure sufficient grounds and blocking are going to be installed either by another contractor such as the framer or you need to plan for those installations yourself.
So while I know there are certainly more than three things that relate to finish work I wondering what we might be able to compile for the other divisions too.
- Division 1 – General Requirements
- Division 2 – Site Work
- Division 3 – Concrete
- Division 4 – Masonry
- Division 5 – Metals
- Division 6 – Wood & Plastics
- Division 7 – Moisture & Thermal Control
- Division 8 – Doors, Windows, and Glass
- Division 9 – Finishes
- Division 10 – Specialties
- Division 11 – Architectural Equipment
- Division 12 – Furnishing
- Division 13 – Special Construction
- Division 14 – Conveying Systems
- Division 15 – Mechanical
- Division 16 – Electrical
Edited 2/9/2004 4:56:57 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
Replies
Very good topic..I would have to expound on what I consider the worst situation...accessabilty to my work. Now, I do not mean parking in Boston or NYC. I mean other subs, homeowners possessions in the way on remods., people who have a house full of company while I am scheduled to work.
Those type of situations I try to avoid ahead of time, but it does not always work out. When the five year old nephew keeps asking for my coping saw while I'm finishing a cabinet install..drives me nuts..and the HO's think it's CUTE..sorry, I don't. When he finally picked up a dropped screw and began writing his name in a base cab. door..I said something. I still had to go back 3 weeks later to install the new door they had to order..and reminded them of my requested site conditions..they sheepishly said '' well, we thought it would be good for him to watch a carpenter in real life and not on TV"..geez, am I a babysitter too?
And with electricians trying to finish out their work as I am installing a new counter top..ya think they could tackle another room? Why no, they want to jaw all day and I'm tryin to work..I don't work for a Co. and get paid hourly, I work for myself, and need to adhere to the amount of time estimated..not stand there and talk about ''why the hell did they throw the ball on second down?''..leave me alone , let me work in peace..now what was that number again?..I hate that.
Sorry if I turned into a ranter..good topic
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
For example I just now saw the topic how many coats does it take...geez.
and it illustrated a problem I knew about (because it's happened to me) along with a few other people there. Deep and or brilliant reds because of pigment density take several coats (as in 4-6) to achieve even coverage and a consistent sheen.
So under Division9 – Finishes> Painting I would say check of the coverage number of costs required for extraordinary colors such as bright or deep reds and yellows. A pastel yellow (containing white) will cover well enough but a a pure bright yellow is another multi-coat problem.
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Edited 2/9/2004 4:54:19 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
For your division 12 - furnishing......
I once got a call from a lady that wanted a mirror hung. She got my name from a friend of hers for whom I had done some small jobs.
She explained that the mirror had been bought from a decorator-store, and that it was to be hung much like a picture. I gave her an estimate over the phone.
When I got there, I found that the "mirror" was actually a huge plaster molding, more of a (crummy looking) piece of art. The glass mirror was probably 14 X 20, but the total piece was probably twice that size.
And it weighed about 100 lbs.
And on the back side, there were two small keyhole openings for screwheads. Very small screwheads. And there were instructions, and two screws (#4 X 7/8), and two twist-in drywall anchors.
The instructions said that the screws had to be placed precisely 23 7/16 inch apart. I measured between the keyholes, and verified.
But how do you get twist-in anchors placed that precisely? And how can I gaurantee that two tiny screws will hold that much weight? And, even with a customer-signed waiver, how would my reputation be upheld?
And, most important to this discussion, how could I recover from this impossible situation?
Never, ever give a $$ ## site unseen- not even a roundabout $$ ##.
Never, ever give a $$ ## site unseen- not even a roundabout $$ ##.
I'm not sure I totally agree with that- it may be that the potential customer who has telephoned might not even allow a visit without at least a vague idea of the cost. Perhaps it would be OK to give a ballpark figure as long as one made it clear to the customer that the estimate was subject to there being no nasty surprises when the job was seen/started?
John
To each his own. Anyone who would decline an offer by me to come look at a job so as to get an accurate estimate of what the job would cost is probably someone I would stay away from working with.
Taylor, I agree that you should never give a ballpark about their job. You can toss out figures for projects that you have just done...
for instance: "Mrs. Saleslead, we just finished roughing a beautiful brick ranch in Sterling Heights. It was about 1700 sq ft and we were able to frame it for $15,500. I'd love to look at your project and see if we could be of service to you....what kind of project are you doing and what is your desired timeframe?"
If she can verbalize the project, I'd immediately start qualifying her by asking "That project sounds like things that we specialize in....what kind of budget are you hoping for?".
If the budget is workable, I'd attempt to get an audience.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
When I do bids now, I specify how many and how much. I was doing an addition for a commercial property and they added FIVE windows. The addition didn't seem big enough for that many windows. The owner said, I didn't add any windows, your bid doesn't specify how many windows. What a crook he was.
Another important item is the 'levels' for example drywall finishing. I have seen people go through their places with flashlights, looking for imperfections. Hello? It's drywall, not a mirror. I list a level of finish on my bids. If they want drywall finished like glass, I can do it, if they can afford it.
If you specify every detail you can in your bids, it helps. Like, ceramic tile, not just tile. They can come in with a slate that will take 3 times longer to clean the grout off of.
You hit the nail on the head. Details, details, details. I spend too much time on estimates but I think that it is time well spent. We include allowances for the quantity of and cost of fixtures, flooring, accessories, etc. Specify finishes & colors. If there is even the slightest doubt that a component of the project may not be "typical", there are clauses that specifically call out the possibility of additional work that may be required upon further evaluation of that component.
For remodels, we now bring with us a digital camera to our site visits prior to preparing the estimate. These pics are invaluable when putting numbers to the work required. How often have you "missed" something in an estimate and had to go back to the home owner and weasel out an explanation to get compensated for your mistake?
Proper Planing Prevents Poor PerformanceOak Leaf Custom Builders, LLC
Jerrald:
Wondering if you have any comments on CSI expanding the Materformat? The new format looks interesting, as they have really expanded the Divisions. At least Division 15 - Mechanical will no longer be such an 800 pound gorilla. The down side is that I have to memorize about 15 more divisions.
Interesting thread regarding the "traps" that an estimator faces. You could almost write a book on the little traps in each division.
Division 1 - Look for legal definations like "Furnish" or "Provide and Install". Potentially, each could mean different things, or they could mean the same thing.
BTW, I enjoy reading your threads. They are very informative and I pick up a lot of usefull information.
Eric
Eric "Wondering if you have any comments on CSI expanding the Materformat?"
Well Eric it's really just an opinion on my part and while I do like the proposed new format over the old one from a pure estimating/estimators-project managers point of view I don't find the CSI format any kind of great help. I much prefer schedule based estimating. In other words essentially estimating the individual nodes on a network diagram. I find that approach a lot more useful especially in that it is essentially designing the work flow as you estimate the costs.
However do feel the CSI Masterformat organization does have it's purpose and usefulness too but it sort of forensic in nature so not very helpful from a managerial point of view. What is does show you is how much money you are spending on lets say Thermal Protection for one project versus another.
The proposals for the new format (and as I understand it there are two competing drafts, versions, or proposals???) I do think will however help organize data better than the older version in that they have those "cross-over" type numbers for stuff that spans more than one phase or division.
I think the CSI system (even with the new version coming) is primarily a relic designed by Architects and Accountants who want to have the data neatly organized from a reporting point of view whereas managerial accountants and project managers will still want something else that show them not what happened but what is going to happen.
The bottom line is however thanks to the powers of relational databases we can have it both ways. CSI estimates can exist right along side of schedule based estimates and one day we should with just a few keyboard stokes be able to switch back and forth right along as we're estimating.
"Interesting thread regarding the "traps" that an estimator faces. You could almost write a book on the little traps in each division.
"
Well I am working on a book and that was one of the things that got me thinking on this. I even thought a database could be built to library the estimating traps that are out there and it could be accessed in much the same way that we would access Unit Cost data so that when you estimated a certain kind of project you could then check the list of "traps" to make sure you hadn't overlooked something.
I think having a real database of the traps rather than relying solely on an estimators experience is a good thing in that"
if you are like me you forget things at times
the lists of traps can be shared with less experienced estimators
the traps can eventually be quantified and you can start to assign real labor times and/or costs to them rather than just good educated guesses making the estimating process even more scientific and therefore less artistic and subject to whim and whimsy.
"At least Division 15 - Mechanical will no longer be such an 800 pound gorilla. The down side is that I have to memorize about 15 more divisions."
Memorize them??!! Geez you're a better man than I am. I certainly don't even have the ones we have now committed to memory and to write out the list I did above I had to look them up. If there ever was a test to name the CSI divisions if I didn't have a computer or PDA to reference I would fail miserably.
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