This might be Tavern material…dunno. Good story but I’ll boil it way down.
Suppose you knew a place that accepted refrigerators and ac for disposal. They charge extra to recapture the freon. What would you do if you found out for sure that they were just snipping the lines, period?
Bad enough that they are charging for a service not rendered. Worse, hell of a stack of refrigeratos…hello ozone.
EPA? Bugging me.
Todd
This 654-sq.-ft. ADU combines vaulted ceilings, reclaimed materials, and efficient design, offering a flexible guest suite and home office above a new garage.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
turn them in.
but what proof do you have?
A "bud" who works there. Guess that's not "for sure" but he's got no reason to lie, I don't have any doubts.The bud in the middle of this is part of what I am chewing on.Todd
Edited 8/17/2006 3:03 pm ET by todd
WTB there's a long list of criminal to go with that...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the EPA and IRS needs to talk to these folks...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Like Imerc said...
EPA and IRS...
A good heart embiggens even the smallest man
DEQ (Department of enviornmental quality) My brother had to call them once about an issue he was having with his neighbors and long story short the DEQ told him if they have to come out for any reason they will slam them with a heafty bill up front for dealing with stupid people.
Turn them in, if you're reasonably confident of the info.
Absolutely turn them in. There's got to be licensing and oversight for an operation like that, so just find out which agency handles it and drop a dime. We barely have an environment left to trash.
Todd.... I'm generally from the "Live and Let Live" school of thought, but I wouldn't bat an eyelash at turning in that azzclown to whomever will listen.
Let's see,,,if I remember correctly from my HVAC class... the EPS has substantial fines- and shares the bounty with anyone who reports such deliberate releases.
So- do you want the $$$$ ?
its like $5000 per incident
For that money gimme the info and I'll fly over there and turn them in tomorrow.
you say "ethics"
I'm like most live & let live... I don't care who you sleep with or what you smoke... but this involves us all, I don't even see a line you are cross'n... it's like call'n the fire dept when you see fire....
u know what you should do without ask'n don't you?
p
His only dilema is that his buddy was the source and works there. Hopefully he will not be implicated. I do not have a big problem with a onetime deal but if someone is charging to dispose and dumping it they should get bit by the big dogs.
I had a disgruntled employee turn us in for pumping a sediment pit in the hangar into the drain with a sump pump. Local guys came out checked our system which had a secondary pit downstream to intercept any grease/oil. Further checked sewer manholes for any oil stains and we were clean.
We washed airplanes in the hangar sometimes when it was cold.
man i understand... unhappy people seem to have all the time in the world to make other join their club...
happy people just don't seem to have the time or the will to make trouble for someone else...
i do have a problem with reporting anything I didn't witness for myself... but then again if there is nothing to it.... no harm....
in your situation i bet if there is a next time someone reporting something about you they won't even follow up on it...
p
Thank goodness I am no longer in that life. I was VP and Gen mgr of a fair sized company. After we were cleared I called the city manager who lived two doors over and asked if he could find out what was going on but he said don't sweat it. It was nice to be connected but even nicer to be disconnected.
Bob
You don't need to tell the authorities why you suspect them. Just tell them someone tipped you off. If the investigation finds there are no violations then all is clear. If they are in violation they are stealing from legimate businesses and the public.
think about it like this, when I was doing HVAC I had schools, paperwork, equpiment regulation I had to follow, why can he get away with it. and I cant
I'm with everybody else. If you're fairly confident in the info, turn them in. Not only are they hurting everybody (think about how many more would die of skin cancer, through no fault of their own, if every place did this), but they are unfairly competing with outfits that do things properly. Any way you look at it, it's just not right.
Thanks for all the replies. I am a little surprised, seems to be unanimous. Based on some Tavern arguements, thought there would be some nasty debate whether "freed" freon is actually bad stuff.I've read on other boards that this is an EPA issue and there's a 15 percent "reward" to the rat. You HVAC pros would know best.The $ would be the last of my reasons for reporting this, although like everyone else I could sure find a way to spend the dough. If proved true, would seem most fitting to donate to a worthy environmental charity.A bit puzzled about one aspect - ex-employees. Unless the owner is doing the job himself (which he's not), seems like disgruntled workers would be motivated to blow the whistle. Then again, I've seen other situations when management exposes staff to their illegal actions...dumb.I know this is serious and I know what's the right thing to do. It's just tough...ain't my nature to be a snitch. The soul searching process will take a while. Thanks again,Todd
I wonder if the company has a written policy describing the correct method of disposing of the Freon & then indirectly guides the workers to do it the incorrect way thereby putting the weight of legality on the workers shoulders.
Doing it the right way is the only way.
I wonder if it would be better if your friend was the one who turns them in. If YOU turn them in, and hes an employee, he might be implicated. If HE turns them in it would certainly look better for him.
Boss: Excellent!John: Don't know, didn't ask.Todd
I'm not saying I'm the bravest or the most ethical person in the world, but I think I would discuss it with the friend/informant before proceeding. I'm thinking (based on the previous employees argument) that maybe the situation is not totally like it appears here. Maybe they only "clip it" on difficult cases, while doing most correctly. Or maybe it happened one time, or maybe the person heard from another. I would ask why the employee keeps working at the place. If the management is unethical enough to defraud all the customers, they will certainly be unethical when they treat their own employees.
I would also investigate what reporting the situation would involve. Could you be dragged into the situation yourself? Our court system is based on the accused being able to confront his accuser, so you never know.
one clip is too many...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
One clip may be too many, but convicting them of one violation somewhere in the past is probably next to impossible.But a forewarned environmental agency can probably do some survellance to catch them in the act if it is a regular occurance. Which will be tons easier to prosecute.
I think it would at least be wise to give the original informant a heads up and perhaps the opportunity to report the problem himself. Tell him you've discussed it (anonymously) with some other folks and they were pretty unanimous in saying it should be reported.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Which refrigerant is it? If this is F12 it is worth it's weight in gold (almost) in the repair market. Why would anyone want to dump it?
Bud’s comment was something to the effect of “all we do is clip the lines…I know it’s not right but that’s what we do.” Sounds like standard practice to me. Interesting that the Freon loaded stuff was positioned in a spot that was pretty much hidden from view. Don’t think that’s a coincidence.I don’t know anything about types of refrigerants, doubt this place does either. Whatever is common in old ac units and refrigerators.I know that the IRS conducts surveillance…stands to reason the EPA would if they had sufficient interest.Never considered being drawn into a litigious situation. Maybe that’s a valid point, considering the eroding of “whistle blower” protection in recent years. Maybe the Sierra Club, National Wildlife Federation, etc. could offer some solid legal advice.I am starting to feel even funnier about this…are those helicopters outside?Todd
freon is accountable for...
used, reclaimed or lost...
when you hit a certain % of loss the EPA is all over yur case...
licensing is required to handle it and forms are to be filled out and given to the EPA...
WTB none of this is being done...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
In theory, if they're licensed to dispose of the stuff they're probably subject to inspection at any time, without need for warrant or "probable cause". If they're not licensed and they're accepting refrigerant stuff for disposal then they're breaking the law regardless.Re litigation, anyone can sue anyone for pretty much anything. Whether they can prevail in court is another matter. Your best defense it to keep your own nose clean and stick to the truth as you know it, without "elaboration".(About those helicopters: Is this company by any chance a Halliburton subsidiary?)
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
having a valid license is what brings on the helicopter delivered inspectors...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Don't know about Haliburton but the thought has occured to me that they have all the stuff to make me a Hoffa real easy...Todd
called in anonamous tip...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
If you know about this and you ignore it you become schmegma. No one wants to be schmegma, trust me on this.
As far as your friend, would he be your friend if he was sleeping with your wife? Cause hes kinda sleepin with everybodys wife if hes cool with this.
Edited 8/18/2006 5:24 pm ET by MSA1
I suspect that the friend may have confided because he was uncomfortable with this, and is looking for confirmation that it's a "real" problem.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
And the real ethical dilemma is: if someone calls in an anonymous tip, and the place gets shut down, and Bud's out of work, who's going to feel guilty? Yes, we all know and agree on the right thing to do. But do you feel comfortable doing it? Is Bud comfortable with the idea that you might lose him his job? Or is he going to come visit you with an AK47, because he'll know you did it???? Or maybe that's not an issue, in which case, your path is obvious.
THAT's the question. Are you willing to accept the consequences of doing the right thing? In fact, that's the major dilemma that everyone faces every day. We all know in our hearts what the right thing to do is, but sometimes we don't have the guts to do it. Whether it's reporting a drunk driver, picking up litter, or stopping a fight.
>THAT's the question. Are you willing to accept the consequences of doing the right thing?Agreed that this is the real question. It's easy for others to tell this guy what to do, seeing as that action has no negative consequences for them. But it could have negative consequences for the whistleblower. At what point does doing the right thing become doing the wrong thing? Should he put himself at personal risk to benefit all the rest of us? I'd bet we can all think of situations in our lives that give us pause. I know I can.