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Euro Building

KaiserRoo | Posted in General Discussion on August 17, 2006 04:55am

Hello to all,

Just got back from a trip to Germany and noticed some major differences in the buildings. What are some of the differences that you guys have noticed and think are better ways of building? Lets see what we can come up with.

Can anyone tell me where to get info on the built in shades (rolladens?) and the windows that can open like a casement hinged on both the bottom and on the side depending on the way you want it to open.

kaiserRoo

 

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Replies

  1. rez | Aug 24, 2006 01:45am | #1

    Greetings K,

    This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again.

    Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.

    Cheers

    We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world.  Where there was nothing, now there is something.
    Forrest - makin' magic every day

  2. User avater
    james | Aug 24, 2006 03:33am | #2

    Marvin makes the windows you are looking for... Installed two yesterday and boy were they heavy.

     

    james

  3. VaTom | Aug 24, 2006 04:25am | #3

    Can't help you on the shades, although some are available here.  My sister had some installed 15 yrs ago.  Hasn't used them in the last decade.

    Recently got some pix of a new house, Saarbrucken area (near France).  I was expecting hollow clay tiles.  Not anymore.  Haven't yet heard how the insulation program works.

    I routinely use Danish weatherstrippings.

    PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

  4. WayneL5 | Aug 24, 2006 04:31am | #4

    I took two vacations to England.  While I did not watch buildings under construction, I was struck with the plain view that homes there are built to last.  There was no vinyl siding, asphalt roof shingles, painted pine trim.  All the materials were durable.  And there was not a single disposable home in sight -- no mobile homes.

    1. VaTom | Aug 24, 2006 04:40am | #5

      And there was not a single disposable home in sight -- no mobile homes.

      Mobile homes are disposable?  They seem to last forever here.  Must not be enough tornados.

      Friend bought one, cheapest used one he could find at the time.  10 yrs later he's still living in it.  Gawdawful ugly but hasn't fallen down yet.  Rotted floor gets patched or he'd end up under it.  

      Still hoping...PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

      1. Lansdown | Aug 24, 2006 04:49am | #6

        But is it a double-wide?

        1. VaTom | Aug 24, 2006 05:02am | #7

          Whazzat? 

          Stick two of 'em together?  I know a guy who did that too.  Then he put a common roof over them.  And cedar sided the outside.  Looks like a house... until you go inside.

          Lots of work- no equity.

          This is the south.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

    2. piko | Aug 24, 2006 08:51am | #8

      And there was not a single disposable home in sight -- no mobile homes.

       

      not true - you just may not have seen them.

      BTW, my Brit FIL called N American house "shacks"...about sums it up, actually.

       All the best...

      To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.

       

    3. user-197115 | Sep 06, 2006 04:17pm | #34

      We do have mobile homes, they just put them on sites that you would probably call trailer parks. Some are no better than a caravan, normally reserved for towing on the back of the car for holidays, but there are some really nice ones, double width, gardens and everything. They don't appreciate in value like a brick building though, and you never own the land it's on, so I can't imagine why anyone would want to actually live in one.

  5. hulkster | Aug 24, 2006 04:40pm | #9

    Hi! I too have been in Germany and Austria for a while, and marvel at the construction practices there. The roll shutters that are quit common there are easily available here (just Google roll shutters). What I am looking for, is a supplier of clay load bearing blocks such as ThermoCellit blocks. http://www.greenspec.co.uk/html/products/thcellit.html
    I am planning on building an Austrian style house in this method. When I get home, and I see 2x4's, a couple of metal wind braces, some foam, and then vinyl siding, I want to cry.

    1. myhomereno | Sep 06, 2006 06:54am | #27

      Hi HulksterFinally somebody on the forum who is going to built the "good old German way".
      I am originally from Germany and really like the way the houses stand up to the elements over there.
      Good luck with your project!!!
      Martin

  6. CVBReno | Aug 24, 2006 08:39pm | #10

    I just love those two-way casement windows you see everywhere in Germany.  They seem to be built really well, the handle and latch mechanisms feel smooth and solid.  Must be really expensive, though.

    I visited the Cotswold region of England this summer, and saw some guys building a couple of new houses in one of those picture-postcard villages.  The new houses exactly matched the 400+ year old ones next door, with 12" thick limestone walls and stone (not slate) roofs.  Another new one had a very elaborate thatched roof with decorative scallops and straw bird (or dragon?) sculptures on the ridgeline.  I was amazed that there are still come old-world craftsmen around to do that!  I just got out of the car and watched them for a while.

     

    1. Lansdown | Aug 24, 2006 08:47pm | #11

      Just came back from Russia, everybody is retrofitting with them. Having the MIL house (in Russia) done now as well.

  7. bergsteiger1 | Aug 24, 2006 11:11pm | #12

    I’m an American who lived in Germany a total of 16 years, so I have observed a lot of homes and building products over there.  It is my impression that most of their homes are built to last, however insulation is still a pretty new concept.  I lived in a townhouse (built in 1982) for a while that had a cement slab for the upper floor ceiling/attic floor with no insulation anywhere.  I did have the double-hinging windows (and a door).  They generally worked very well, although they sometimes got out of whack and then you had your heavy window or door hanging on only one of the connectors and had to fiddle with it to get it back.  None of the ones I have seen had screens, mainly because they would have had to be on the outside and that is where the roladen is installed.  I had to build my own very thin screens, but had to have a friend in the states mail me screening as I could not find any – even though I lived in a fairly buggy area along the Rhine (Rhein) River.

     

    The roladen shades were nice if you wanted total darkness.  But they are not very good insulators, since the box/header over the window takes up most of the thickness of the wall and is basically open to the air.  They might be useful in hurricane country.

     

    Maybe things have improved since I last lived there in 2000.

     

     

    I also had not seen mobile homes in England until I got to the coast of Wales where there were a number of groups of them near the beaches.  Perhaps they are used as weekend or vacation homes.

    1. GregGibson | Aug 25, 2006 02:27am | #13

      I lived in Wales for a couple of years.  One thing I noticed, on new residential stuff, was that they still build solid masonry walls, not brick veneer.

      Also, their fascia material is some sort of painted steel, and I don't mean coil-stock.  It was solid, heavy gauge steel. 

      Yep, built to last.

      Greg

    2. KaiserRoo | Aug 27, 2006 10:51pm | #14

      We just came back from the Stuttgart area, and took a day trip to Kaiserslautern where i used to be stationed. We noticed that some people have installed screen material. I never had a screen while stationed there and had the double hung casement that worked well. Never had any bugs.

      I agree that the houses seem to be much more solid and the materials much more durable. I'm not sure how well they are insulated but it was quite hot when we were there a month ago. No one had AC's and few had fans.

      KaiserRoo

      1. geilerzimmermann | Sep 06, 2006 11:46am | #33

        If you have to do any remodeling you are screwed since floors, walls, and cielings are concrete. If you have ever noticed any retrofitted wireing is always run on the out side of walls with those funky looking industrial switch housings.

        If you want to move a wall, well you get the idea. It is what it is.

        mark

        1. KaiserRoo | Sep 06, 2006 10:26pm | #37

          I did notice that while there. Also noticed that the home we stayed in had one room with the cork floor and it seemed to have some "give" to it. It was laid out like tile.

          KaiserRoo

      2. BowBear | Sep 06, 2006 04:55pm | #35

        I lived in Fellbach, north of Stuttgart for a while and helped the HO to remodel parts of their house.

        The house attic was insulated with cinders.  The house was built in the 1950/60s with a clay tile roof.  It made work in the attic running wire etc quite simple.  We lifted off the tiles over our work area and had lots of headroom. After we were finished we set the tiles back on, from inside and the roof was back.

        The house was framed with what looked like 6x6s with thye space between te beams filled with clay tile and others being filled with rubble and mortar.

        We ran wires by chiselling out a trough in the tile or mortar, laying in the wire and covering with what appeared to be plaster.  all the walls were papered and then painted.  To repaint we'd pull of the paper, usually in one sheet, repaper and then paint.

        I always thought there could be a business vacuuming out the cinders and replacing with cellulose.

         

         An ex-boat builder treading water!

        1. KaiserRoo | Sep 07, 2006 12:26am | #38

          We stayed with my wife's aunt in Hepsisau which is SW of Stuttgart I think. As someone had mentioned, the living areas are not so spread out and there was plenty of fields and trees and orcheds with the many fruit trees that were used for Snaps. Her cousin has a couple Jack Russels that he uses to hunt wild bor. The aunt has chicks so my daughter enjoyed getting eggs with her early in the morning.

          KaiserRoo 

        2. KaiserRoo | Sep 21, 2006 03:27am | #39

          Hey guys just another thought about Germany. Did anyone notice that there were few pick-up trucks. Many regular cars would instead pull trailers on hte Autobon. They seemed to be quite sturdy and well made. I wonder how they compare to the trailers you could get here.

          PS my wife's cousin said that it has only been recently that they could no longer have beer at lunch while at work. Now that's a little too PC!!!!

          KaiserRoo

          1. myhomereno | Sep 21, 2006 04:10am | #40

            Until probably the early 1990's it was common for construction workers to drink beer while they were working. These were mainly brick layers and tile setters. Today there is no more drinking at the work site. If you get caught you get fired from the job. Competition is very high.I don't know about cargo trailers but car trailers in Germany are great. I remember years ago having a BMW M6 on a tailer and blasting with 160 km/h over the Autobahn. I used a BMW 535 for towing. This set up was so stable you won't believe it. The trailer tongue does control the braking force of the trailer. When the towing vehicle brakes, the tongue on the trailer sort off compresses a spring which in turn applies pressure to the trailer brakes. The are no electric trailer brakes. Easy and efficient set up.

          2. KaiserRoo | Sep 22, 2006 05:13am | #41

            Think you can get the name of the trailer? I just compare the trailers I have seen on RT 93 going to New Hampshire vs what i had seen on the autobohn and it seemed  as though the advantage was Germany. What about the same type of trailers being available in Canada?

            thanks to all for the information it was a fun topic

            KaiserRoo

    3. myhomereno | Sep 06, 2006 07:06am | #28

      Hi Bergsteiger1Where did you live on the Rhein River? I am from Remagen, between Koblenz and Bonn.
      These days the Rolladen (Roll Shutters) have insulation inside their boxes, usually 1 1/2" Styrofoam. They do work well IMO. I the summer you close them and it will keep the heat out of the house. In the wintertime they work as a insulator from the outside, not as much heat loss. They also dampen the sound a bit. Not the prettiest thing but they have their purpose.Martin

      1. bergsteiger1 | Oct 22, 2006 02:51am | #44

        Sorry, I have not been back to this post for a while.  I lived in Worms am Rhein and really enjoyed it.  I certainly miss the plentiful and inexpensive wines.

        1. wrudiger | Oct 22, 2006 05:21am | #45

          Yes, but you have the plentiful and inexpensive - and excellent!! - beer instead.  I'll never forget that doppel-bock I had a few years ago in Fussen - ah, great memories.

  8. timkline | Aug 28, 2006 12:21am | #15

    http://www.marvin.com/?page=Tilt_Turn_And_Hopper

     

    carpenter in transition

  9. wooderson | Aug 28, 2006 12:31am | #16

    I just got back from a summer in Germany/Austria.  What I noticed about their houses was the doors.  Instead of the whole slab going inside the jambs, they have doors with rabbetted sides.  Half of the door goes inside and the other half lays on the outside.  It makes for a solid-closing, and good looking door. 

    1. KaiserRoo | Sep 05, 2006 05:53pm | #18

      I too noticed the doors with the rabbited edges and the lockset that even had the old skelliten key/hole. The doors have little or no trim around them. The entrance doors were much thicker than what we have here and of much higher quility and design. Also the entrance doors had only a handle no knob to turn. Interior doors had the latch levers.

      The entrence and many of the garage doors appear to be of high quality on so many of the houses even in the farming areas or small villages. I guess this it due to it being the focal point. I'll try to post some pictures. I wonder how much the door would cost me in this country? I wonder how much and how long it would take to build a home like so many of the ones that are over there here in southern new england?

      KaiserRoo

       

    2. myhomereno | Sep 06, 2006 07:12am | #29

      These doors are nice to look at but most of them or hollow core with veneer glued to them. Even most of the interior door have a weatherstripping on them. You will never hear one door rattling.

  10. reinvent | Aug 28, 2006 12:38am | #17

    I worked for a small company that makes those tilt turn windows you describe. Very high end solid mahogany construction (68mm thick), double gasketed, triple pane etc. Not cheap; around $800 or so for your average sized window.
    I personally dont like them. The tilt dosent really give you that much ventilation and the turn is in the living area. If you have one near a table, chair, or couch you can not open it. They will be in the way.

    1. KaiserRoo | Sep 05, 2006 06:01pm | #19

      I agree with the tilt turn as for it opening into the living area and being a problem and without a screen it would be a problem here with bugs. I am impressed with the way it works. When I was in K-town we had a dormer with that type of window so it did not interfer with the living area.

      I also noticed that many of the floors were different heights and had no transition like a threshold so watch out for your toes. Also they had wood, or perhaps a laminate type finish on the ceilings that look like wood planks.

      KaiserRoo

      1. myhomereno | Sep 06, 2006 07:39am | #31

        Hi KaiserRoo
        My tilt and turn windows have bug screens.
        BTW where is K-town, I have read this before on Knots.
        The ceiling covering you refer to is T&G, mostly fir.

        1. KaiserRoo | Sep 06, 2006 10:24pm | #36

          K-town is the US Army name for the city of Kaiserslautern where they just held the world cup match between Italy and the US. My two dogs are Dachshunds the older one is named in part for the city of K-town and the movie The Usual Suspects. His name is Kaiser and the other guy is Baron. My wife named Baron because she kicked me off the naming committee after I said let's name him Count De Bone or even Count Chocula. They are both chocolate and tan short hair minis. Kaiser likes to hunt and Baron likes to eat whatever Kaiser finds. Baron also love to lick toads and then push them around with his nose.

          KaiserRoo

    2. Adrian | Sep 05, 2006 08:15pm | #21

      Where was that? I read about a company that was doing it in wood in Chicago I think; mid-west anyway.

      We have a small cmpany doing them here in a very good grade of vinyl; German-owned, all German equipment. Nice operation ( I toured through)....we're doing our house next year (http://www.polytechproducts.com/).

      On Euro-buidling....I went to the big wood shows in Cologne and Hanover a few years ago. One of the things that caught my eye was the automated wood framing set ups.....using material similar to 2 x 4's, but they were dovetailing in headers around doors, windows, etc, had robot nailers putting the sheathing on.....then they were cutting out the openings with CNC chainsaws. Pretty cool, and looked very solid.

       

       

      Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

      Edited 9/5/2006 1:20 pm ET by Adrian

      1. User avater
        rjw | Sep 05, 2006 08:33pm | #22

        I wonder how long the average person stays in a home there.In the US it's 5- 7 years, and people think of their house in terms of "investment.""If I'm only gonna be here x more years, any "improvements" only have to look good for X+1."

        Fighting Ignorance since 1967

        It's taking way longer than we thought

        1. myhomereno | Sep 06, 2006 07:42am | #32

          People stay in their houses for a long time, I believe the average is about 20 to 25 years.

        2. User avater
          Crash | Sep 22, 2006 06:35am | #42

          I wonder how long the average person stays in a home there.

          My landlord in Holland just turned 60 and he's lived in the townhouse next door since he was 4.  The only reason he's here is because his family's farm house was destroyed in WWII.  "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography."  Ambrose Bierce

           

        3. BowBear | Sep 22, 2006 11:13pm | #43

          Having dinner at a friends hotel in the Algau near the Austrian border, i asked him how long his family had been in the hotel business. About 600 years ws the reply, but not this hotel, we started in that building pointing out the window, just down the hill.An ex-boat builder treading water!

      2. reinvent | Sep 06, 2006 01:59am | #23

        http://www.archop.com

    3. myhomereno | Sep 06, 2006 07:32am | #30

      I have the "EUROLINE" brand tilt and turn windows in my house, I love it. They are easy to use, quiet and very easy to clean. When you use the tilt option nobody can open the window from the outside, so you can keep it like this when you leave the house and don't have to worry about burglary.
      Move the handle to the horizontal, open the window inwards and it is easy to clean. There is no stupid handle to rotate like on a casement window. This always reminds me of starting an old car where you have to put the handle in the crank and turn it to start the engine.The only downside on these windows is the price: They are expensive. I have some windows in 5 ft X 3 1/2 ft and they cost about $1100 CAN a piece. But I think it is worth it. The same window would cost me in Germany only 1/3 of that, they are mass produced over there. I went to the place were they built them and everything there is state of the art. The tooling, hardware and extruded beams are all made in Germany. The only local item is the glass.Martin

  11. BryanSayer | Sep 05, 2006 06:42pm | #20

    I was in France and England last year, and what I noticed is that a large number of the houses had plumbing on the OUTSIDE of the building.

    Doesn't seem to practical here though...

  12. darrel | Sep 06, 2006 02:08am | #24

    While tooling through Scotland we noticed the following major differences in housing:

    No 1-acre lawns.

    Houses used stone, masonry and roof tile as opposed to vinyl and asphalt.

    Lots of high density areas surounded by plenty of wide open green spaces.

    That and no screens. I guess they don't have bugs in Scotland.

    1. ncarey | Sep 06, 2006 03:38am | #25

      While tooling through Scotland we noticed the following major differences in housing:...Houses used stone, masonry and roof tile as opposed to vinyl and asphalt.

      In much of Europe, building with anything but non-flammable materials is illegal — a lot of cities and towns have burned over the last 1,000 years or so. Consequently buildings are of masonry and roofs are metal or tile.

      Further, when you build with labor-intensive and costly materials, it pays to think truly long term. Also, zoning regulations tend to required building in a traditional style in many locales.

      1. User avater
        rjw | Sep 06, 2006 05:47am | #26

        >>In much of Europe, building with anything but non-flammable materials is illegal — a lot of cities and towns have burned over the last 1,000 years or so.The first recorded building codes in the US were in colonial Boston, when they banned thatched roofs and wood chimneys!

        Fighting Ignorance since 1967

        It's taking way longer than we thought

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