But I guess thats how they got rich?
Woman calls me from this exclusive neighborhood where you not only don’t get in without the owners calling the secuity gate, you don’t go in the front entrance in a pickup truck! AT ALL! (I have done work there before and get reamed out for even trying!)
So she proceeds to tell me they got my name from a friend of a friend of a friend(yeah, like I know someone that could afford to live there!) and want to do this and that and this and that to their million dollar home. She talked for like 15 minutes before I could even say a word. She then adds they have to do it really inexpensively as she just quit her job to stay home and have their first child. Yeah HER first child as she sounds about 25 while the husband is probably 55. Can you say “Trophy bride”?
I listen and finally tell her I would be glad to come out but there is a charge as it sounds like it going to take a while as a design consultation. She is aghast that I would charge her for an estimate! I told her I understand but thats just how it is. She goes on to tell me the two other guys who had been out didn’t charge but she didn’t like either of them. I told her I knew she would like me and knowing that I wasn’t even interested in this job anymore told her she would even like me more as I am kinda cute. Silence on the other end. 🙂
So she said she would check with her husband and get back to me.
I love some of these experiences sometimes. Great for laughs and would make a great book someday!
Edited 8/13/2008 1:54 pm ET by Oak River Mike
Replies
I don't get it.
She lacked tact in letting you know up front that cost was an important factor in their decision making, but who isn't concerned about cost?
You don't explain WHY you charge a fee to come solve their problems, just say "that's the way it is?"
Someone may have referred you to this person, and you just insulted all of them?
Yeah, nice work!
Mike,
You must have missed the way I wrote it....and see some of my other posts about folks wasting my time.
I charge for estimates and "thats the way it is" Too many years doing this for free.
I asked who referred her and she couldn't give me a name...i.e. BS
Mike
Someone may have referred you to this person, and you just insulted all of them?
Not to mention provided basis for a sexual harassment suit!!
In the future it might work out better if you just make an appointment to speak with both the husband and the wife. Wear your best casual clothes and, if possible, drive over in a nice car.
If you present yourself as a successful businessperson you'll be closer to their perceived level of society. That will get you past the nickle and dime BS and earn you some respect.
If you have a good sales presentation with plenty of photos of your work and you can come up with some good design ideas on the spot, you'll be a shoe in for the job, before you ever talk seriously about money.
Hudson,
Maybe but not worth the time for this one. We have 6 big jobs out to contract right now so I didn't feel like messing with her "remodeling ideas" which may or may not even be a real job.
Mike
In the future it might work out better if you just make an appointment to speak with both the husband and the wife.
Agreed. People abuse us (realtors) like this all the time, so I know the feeling. In my experience, if it's a couple, and you're giving your pitch to only one of them, chances are they're just shopping you to make sure their actual choice isn't screwing them. You're highly unlikely to get the job.
Another nice trick we get is a call asking "Can you come out tonight and give us a CMA?" Sure, I'll just drop everything, spend all afternoon putting together your precious market analysis and pizz my evening away just so you can feel better about the other guy you've already hired. Let me get right on that.
On another topic Jason,
It's come to my attention, many times in the last couple of years, that listing agents here in SoCal don't make any effort to inform potential buyers about the advantages of living in a particular neighborhood.
They seem to be content to sell only the steak, without any of the sizzle. They hold open houses and make up nice color leaflets with glowing descriptions of the home but that's it.
No research. No imagining what else might attract buyers to a neigborhood, then adding those features to the hand outs.
I recently button-holed one listing agent, who was sitting in her listing for a Sunday afternoon open house, on this subject. She didn't like being advised how to present the property, even though I told her I owned a house up the street. Her only response was that all the features I mentioned were easily observable.
What's point of hiring a salesperson and paying them a large percentage of my net profit, if they're not going do any research or use any imagination to create higher interest in my house?
Well, it's not as if it takes a marketing genius to note proximity to parks, schools, shopping, etc. in a flyer. Are those the sort of features you're talking about?
Increasingly, we are having to be careful how we present (or represent) the areas our listings are in. If you make a claim and it turns out to be subjectively untrue, or even just open for debate, you can wind up with your #### in a wringer.
For example - I write "Quiet neighborhood" in a listing's marketing pieces. Then along comes a buyer like the one I had a couple years back, who said she didn't like train noise. In Omaha, home of the Union Pacific. It's pretty much impossible to find such a property in the southern 2/3 of the metro where you won't hear trains.
Or alternately, the house turns out to be in Offutt AFB's flight path. Buyer didn't realize this, their agent didn't tell them, seller didn't disclose it because it's bloody obvious, and we ALL get sued, because the buyer doesn't think it's quiet.
Well, it's not as if it takes a marketing genius to note proximity to parks, schools, shopping, etc. in a flyer. Are those the sort of features you're talking about?
Yes they are. Basic Chamber of Commerce information, easily obtainable and verifiable.
I tried my hand at direct sales when I was young, working every conceiveable advantage of the product into my presenatation, so I have near zero respect for these listing agents whose idea of selling is to put out a few open house signs and sit there with a stack of basic flyers, hoping for a buyer without a broker to waltz in.
"In my experience, if it's a couple, and you're giving your pitch to only one of them, chances are they're just shopping you to make sure their actual choice isn't screwing them. "If you have your systems set up right, that information would be gleened in the opening script when they make their first contact. A well thought out script will dig a lot of that information out and set the tone. We don't have that system in place yet, but its on the list of things to do.
I kinda see where you're coming from. When the first word out of peoples mouths is money I know i'm not getting the job.
My biggest hurdle is selling my company. Anyone can do alot of what I do, but can they deliver the value in things like coming back for problems, staying power, cleanliess on the site, and delivering a quick job? Many people have told me stories of bathrooms being demo'd then not seeing anyone for three days (thats a long time to be crossing your legs).
I just bid a job where the lady wants the toilet moved across the bathroom (corner to corner).
The bath is on the second floor and my competetion told her $150 to move the toilet. Myself and my plumber have no idea how this guy plans to get 4" pipe through four joists and still keep the bathroom on the second floor.
I told her pretty much the only way is if we get lucky and there is some kind of perpendicular joist stacking going on below the floor or possibly a mid span bearing wall since the exterior walls arent stacked.
Bottom line is she may like his price better than mine but he may move her bathroom down into the hallway.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
EXACTLY as I am not in it to do it the cheapest!
Every guy around me that will work without a permit can easily beat me at price.
I know I shouldnt, but i'll go either way on permits as long as the customer understands the potential cost of their choice.
We work the same way regardless of permits or not.
My first four years of business, no one wanted a permit, this its different.
I pull for all my own projects though.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
MSA,
I know what you mean but I cannot afford to take the risk as I am on the local building board. Would look REALLY bad if I got caught working without a permit while I set there imposing fines on other guys that do. Yikes!
But in our area it does add a nice chunk of change to the job cost with signed and sealed plans and the permit being about $2-4k for an average job.
Edited 8/13/2008 1:39 pm ET by Oak River Mike
I'd just a soon get them for all the projects, but I cant walk away from money especially right now. Notice what time were having this conversation. I should be knee deep in a job right now, not talking here.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Yeah me too. It IS hard to walk away from a project when the folks say they do not want the permit and need to do it as cheap as possible. If its a 10-12k project and the permit is going to add say 2-3k its understandable.
Florida just has such strict licensing requirements that I would pay pretty hefty for it and would ALWAYS have a record of doing unpermitted work so I don't take the chance.
Yeah, I am spending my day doing paperwork and consultation write ups so at least I am kind of getting paid to sit here and type. Hey wait a minute, I am telling my boss!!! :)
I spent yesterday writing two estimates (better than nothing) and I have to go try and sell one tomorrow.
Tomorrows sale is to a first time flipper that has almost no idea what shes in for. The house she bought was vandelized by the person that lost it.
He randomly removed parts of the plumbing, took the A/C unit and just to be cute, cut all the wires where they enter the panel and on the inside of the panel.
There's a ton of movement in the brick fascia and a weeks worth of wall prep before a paint brush is even touched.
The house had burned at one time and there is not a stich of insulation in the attic (which she doesnt care about). I think shes in waaaaay over her head.
Did I mention this house is in a nice neighborhood of Detroit? Shes basing everything off of comps without actually going out to see what shes actually competing with.
I think she'll be surprised. She has budgeted 15k for repairs.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Yikes! Good luck with it.
I was at a house not long ago that had the wires cut at the panel. As seemingly small and relatively easy to fix as that would appear, its a HUGE problem.
There was an article in our local paper about how many folks are vandalizing the houses they lose.
I thought about that as a possible market but in our area, I would have to get an AC guy, a plumber and an electrican to do the smallest of work as each requires...once again THEIR OWN PERMIT. Whereby that $15k budget becomes $20-25k easily.
I spoke with my guys and they gave me sight unseen parameters for the initial bid. Were at about 20k right now. Who knows, I come reccomended to this lady, i'll bring the pictures along tomorrow and maybe she'll bring us on board. it would be a nice way to spend three weeks anyway.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
You know for a guy that cries broke, poverty and the financial world is against me all the time you sure work at pushing business away. I mean it is ok with me but if I am not doing much I would go look at a dog house to build. But I guess that is just me.
I am not saying you shouldn't charge for design work etc. but even Sonny Lycos went to the house for free the first time. Then rolled out his charge for design/quote deal from there. What I am saying is that some of these folks may not go with you but still may refer you to others if you are professional, polished, look and act the part of a pro. And not everyone has there act together when they call the first time. But hey, what do I know? DanT
I understand Dan but I refuse to work for free anymore. No one does anything for me for free so I can't afford to either...
Not being bitter or trying to fight just tired of too many empty calls that lead to no where except for me out my own time and gas at $4 a gallon. I feel that I have a good feel for what these calls are and act accordingly.
Like I said before I have been pursuing other career options. I tried to get out of the biz as I dislike the "lostunbillable time" in construction but got a handful of good jobs so I am working them but am going to do so on my own terms.
I tried to get out of the biz as I dislike the "lostunbillable time" in construction but got a handful of good jobs so I am working them but am going to do so on my own terms.
I understand your point of view very well. You'd like potential clients to treat you with the respect you've earned in your community, as a craftsman and a responsible contractor.
Some people are raised in families where respect for, and friendship with others is taught by example. When two such people marry and have financial success they're a dream for any of us to work with.
The problem is that we can't teach others to respect us like that nor can we demand it. When they grow up in families where perceptions of social differences are prevelant, they will see the world like that until something rather powerful happens to correct it. That "something" isn't going to be you, not unless you're willing to kiss that job goodby and become Dr. Phil instead.
That's why I offered you that previous advice about presenting yourself as someone of similar status, a successful business person. It dispells the notion that you're of a lower social and economic background, while allowing you to speak freely about the fine work you and your company do.
So get away from your identity as a tradesman. Present yourself as successful businessperson and a social equal who just happens to be in construction.
Of course that won't always work either. You're not going to click with everyone. If you're a good salesman, working mostly on referrals, you'll write between one quarter and one third of the contracts you go after. If you do better than that, you're golden.
The rest of those meetings are part of the time you must invest in order to find the good ones. Accepting that fact of life is a necessary part of discovering the kind of positive attitude which will carry you through the time wasted on tire kickers and other BSers.
Edited 8/14/2008 8:12 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson,
You make some very good points. My problem is I am not a salesman. I tell people what stuff will cost and thats it. Either they like it or they don't but there is not pressure from me, no sales pitch, etc. I am just not good at sales.
Some guys have said how they take a contract with them and try to get folks o sign it then...I just can't do that. I am more like a "have a look and see what you think" guy.
Sure its a flaw when you are self-employed...I admit it.
My problem is I am not a salesman.
My error there. Selling is usually defined by the ability to close deals. That's not what I'm talking about.
I should've put "salesman" in quotes or indicated that it's not so much about "selling", just making a good impression and presentation. When you can speak with your clients as a social equal it becomes easier to "sell" your ideas as well as your prices. Nice casual clothes and an friendly attitude of equality are all that's needed.
I spent years believing that I made the best impression by wearing my work clothes to first meetings with clients and presenting myself as a skilled craftsman.
I have to admit now, that doesn't necessarily work in your favor, unless you're going to visit another tradesperson or similar blue collar family.
"When in Rome...."
Edited 8/13/2008 6:33 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Mike, I am admiring the way you are taking shots and rolling with the punches. That tells me there is some hope and therefore I'll chirp in. If I had seen a hint of defensiveness, I'd have passed. First, it's obvious that you were hoping to get a few chuckles from your story, while venting a little too. I'm really not sure why you feel a need to vent though. Nothing about your lead tells me you had something to be frustrated about. Let me tell you how much different we would view that call. I'm on board with Jon and Stepehn and those that think you goofed. I would be estatic to get that call ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT WAS IN AN EXCLUSIVE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT DIDN'T ALLOW PICKUP TRUCKS THROUGH THE FRONT GATE!Maybe I've been humbled or maybe I know where my bread is going to get buttered. I'm running a business. My business is service. Someone that has a nice house wants service. Yes....I'm thrilled to go meet them...on their terms. Once there, I'm going to do my best to understand their needs. Then, I'm going to assess whether we can serve those needs. Then, I'm going to go home, put together a proposal and take it back out there and go over it line by line. Actually, I won't be doing all that but my designer/estimator will and she will be loving life as she spends time with this lady. Will our price match their budget? I don't know and I don't care. Will we be "selling" her? NO? Will we be informing her? Yes! We teach our clients about our business, our services, their needs, their wants and we teach them how much things cost in the real world especially. We talk about things and they ask questions and we give answers. Every objection, including price is our opportunity to teach them more about us, and how we can help them satisfy their needs and benefit from our services. Sales is giving. To understand that, you probably should pick up Jeffrey Gitomer's Little Red Bible or at least subscribe to his e letters. Does this mean that there are no bad clients? Of course not. You just didn't really tell me anthing that led me to believe that I wouldn't want to see her. In fact, I would love to be the third guy in. Usually, the other two have already taught her that her budget is half what it needs to be. If we are the third, we have a golden opportunity to come in right smack dab in the middle and make a nice profit on the job...doing it our way and pricing it our way. I understand your frustration about not not wanting to go to sales that don't lead to closings but that is the nature of sales in the remodeling business. Your attempt to sell a design package should include a formal presentation of the benefits of that package, not some lame attempt over the phone to extort a driving fee. YOur idea might be right but your execution is lacking. Hire a commission salesperson...someone who loves the job. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Well said Jim. That kind of attitude I would hire!
Thanks Jim...Good points.
And actually we have been looking for a salesperson like you and I talked about in a previous thread...just can't find one that will work on commission.
Gotta keep looking.
Mike
I'll find you one in a week guaranteed! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Mike,
Youve had some outstanding advice here. You need to pay close attention to what you are reading. Learn from the mistakes & succes's of those that offer comment.
Now quit shooting yourself & then whinning you don't have work & the economy is lousy, it's not your fault you have no money.
It is completely your fault. Get mastering the seven decisions that determine personal success by Andy andrews. Read it, do the exersises. Repeat.
You keep complaining you aren't a salesman. If you have any intent on a succesful business career (no matter the industry)you need to learn to sell yourself."this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
you know mike,
i have been thinkingPersonally-- I don't like meeting new people--- i certainley don't like selling, i hate endless conversations about color samples etc. so--there are parts of our industry I would be really bad at---kitchen remodeling for examplePerhaps YOU have been pursuing the wrong aspect of our industry??????In my case--- i have gravitated towards a part of our industry where the ability to solve problems trumps my dislike of meeting new people.when a prospects roof leaks--- they don't much care about the relative charm of prospective contractorsthey DO care if I return phone calls promptly, If I make firm appointments and show up for the appointments on time and most of all--if i solve the problem.
Perhaps a segment of the industry---that's kind of un-pleasant----roofing, or replacing water heaters or something-might be a good fit for you????perhaps it's just me-- but i find that $$$ comes from solving unpleasant problems for other peopleI would be horrible at designing kitchens----but I do know that your $100K annual target is childs play in the roofing industry----if THAT is what's important to you.personally $100K isn't my goal------actually throughout most of my early career i was happily noodling along closer to dovetails $15K/year---with tons and tons of free timeknowing what i know NOW-- i could make that $15K in a month---if that's what i wanted to do--but it's NOT what i want.
looking for problems to solve,and charging accordingly, is much more lucrative than wondering why people won't charge me a design fee or pay for estimates.
best of luck to you----i gotta run and solve somebodies problem today,
stephen
well said....
some people are "people people" and some aren't
people will always deal with people they like.... "best for the job ain't even a close second"
p
That is so true. The gal I have doing our sales LOVES SELLING! She loves, Loves, LOVES Selling! It a huge game of life for her. My wife commented exactly that today, telling me that she's amazed at how aggressive, determined and how much fun she has selling. Then, later, the gal starts asking me if maybe we should slow down on the lead acquistion because she's afraid she's going to sell so much she'll overwhelm me. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I've been fighting slow/no/low profit sales for three years in MI and she's worried about selling too much and growing too fast hahahahahaha! I just told her that I'd much prefer to double up our advertising and double our sales if she has the time to sell em all. I also told her not to worry about production. I know from this site and other advertising that I'm doing that I can get all the quality help I need. If the nation was bustling in construction projects, I'd be worried about not meeting her production schedule but there are too many quality people prowling the streets. I'll bring them in from the midwest if I have too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I agree most definitely with what you say and have approached clients with much the same. My ex husband loved to sell because he loved to talk to people. I love to get out and meet people. I love to go to their houses and I am proud of who I am and what I represent. I believe that I can spend time with people and learn what it is that they want and see if we can make a good fit for them. Usually we can, sometimes we can't, but if we can't, I usually can make a referral for them.When I make a referral, I just gave a colleague of mine some potential earnings. I've given referrals to a few fellow tradesman I know who've run with a job I could do nothing with or wanted nothing to do with for one reason or another.To get into a good part of town, to get my truck or car seen there? To get my sign in the yard? To get to know them and possibly their neighbors? You better believe I'll be there!Class is a hot button issue in our society, but this is about making money, not venting our social concerns or issues, its about business. Sometimes I take my partner carpenter, from a very poor family who never has caught onto class consciousness, sometimes I don't. I carefully consider how to weigh the potential impression I make.Some people are put-off by fancy trucks, some people are put-off by no trucks and some people think people with old trucks no matter how nice are creditless scum. Who knows? But the fear of the unknown should never stop you from making money.Actually a little sales training would help some people who have questions or confusion about "closing". Closing in effect really means weeding people out. You do that the minute you talk on the phone with them -- you qualify them and when you go out you qualify them again. You get them to move closer to your side and then as soon as possible tie them up. If they are ready they will be ready when you are, if they balk, then you move on, but not until you know the signs.Too much to explain here. I'd suggest to anyone to get a good reference book on sales and scan it through, you'd be surprised at how basic so much of it is. Its really just about meeting people, having confidence in yourself and empathizing with their needs enough to know where you can fit in and then making that fit work.
Jim,I wish I had your confidence and trust in others. Certainly sounds like it makes a successful venture.Maybe when I grow a set.Glenn
Glenn, whats so hard about hiring others to do a job that they are better at? I hire plumbers because I can't plumb. I hire salespeople because I can't sell. I hire remodelers because I can't remodel. The only thing I'm good at is custom rough frames and that's not a viable business. The guys here are doing it for 1.75 to 2.25 per foot on houses that I'd want to charge at least 6 per foot for. I don't want to frame houses with a crew, then go home in the same car as them and sleep in the same house with them in some slummy neighborhood. I could make more money as a cashier at the Mobile station than custom framing. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
"Glenn, whats so hard about hiring others to do a job that they are better at? I hire plumbers because I can't plumb. I hire salespeople because I can't sell. I hire remodelers because I can't remodel."Yep, like the old saying goes - "Hire people smarter than you are and let them do their jobs."Todd
Let them do their jobs is the key. They appreciate the responsibility. They are motivated and hard working and I couldn't have found a better foundation for a remodeling company. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
You're right. I've seen plenty of top level guys micromanage people who are brighter/more capable then them. Leads to P*ss poor morale.Todd
Todd,I do hire subs and try like hell to get people smarter than me.That really isn't hard to do. Just of question of confidence.Glenn
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is: what are you good at? What are you excellent at? What are you marginal at? Are you focusing 80% of your efforts in the area that you are excellent at? Are you delegating the areas that you are weak at? If so, you are on the path to success. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Well, I don't have much business right now. While advertising might be a way to get my name around, I'm not comfortable with it.Have a couple of customers that I have done repeat work for, but smaller stuff. But it pays.
I am starting the process to do an addition for my parents. I've been the onsite guy for someone before, working and dealing with the subs that he hired. But this is the first time that I met with the archy, got my mother (OY!) to a kitchen designer/sales guy, hiring subs, scheduling and working the job everyday. I am working with a friend dong the foundation, I'm doing the insulation, drywall (probably have someone else spackle), paint, kitchen, trim, flooring.I've got Joe Carola looking at the plans to frame it. Really looking forward to that, if he'll just call me back. HERE THAT, JOE!I would love it if this project opened doors and opportunities for me that I don't have right now.You say you hire remodelers? I don't understand. Is that your business? I have always felt that I need to know more than anyone else if I'm in charge.I realize that the plumber and electrician have it all over me, but still feel I don't know enough to tell them what to do.But I'm slowly getting there. I do have great support from friends in the business, so I'm not drowning yet.And I always have Breaktime!Glenn
"You say you hire remodelers? I don't understand. Is that your business? I have always felt that I need to know more than anyone else if I'm in charge."My 30 years was spent primarily framing custom frames including the decks, walls, roofs, sheathings, cornice, siding and exterior millwork including all flashings and trim. That's my forte. I don't have the tools, nor the patience to go inside some lady's house and rip out here bathroom and redo it. So, I hire someone that does. They worked in that field for many more years than I have and have better skills, better judgment and better tooling. How do I fit in all this? The same way Henry Ford owns Ford Motor Co. He doesn't attach steering wheels and I don't set tiles. Henry Ford was accused of being too dumb. In a court proceeding he had to prove his intelligence. After a bunch of trivial questions by the lawyers intended to prove that he doesn't know much, he answered them "I don't have to know the answer to that question. I have a button in my office and when I press it I can summon the greatest minds that the world has to offer. Anything I wish to know, I ask them and they will immediately begin researching the answer till they get it for me."His answer proved he was intelligent enough. Your statement regarding advertisement tells me you don't understand what advertising is all about. Let me ask you this. Do the closest 1000 people living near you know that you are a qualified contractor and could help them solve their remodeling needs? If the people closest to you don't know, how would you expect someone from ten blocks away to know? How do you know about Coca Cola? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Jim,"Do the closest 1000 people living near you know that you are a qualified contractor and could help them solve their remodeling needs?"That's probably my problem. I see so many guys who do better than me, be it craftmanship, speed, success, that I think self-confidence is probably holding me back. The old fear of failure.I know all about hiring people smarter than you are and managing them, the theory if not the practice.I think I'm just not confident enough in my own abilities.Glenn
(please note: the following is a digression - I think you make valid points, and I'm enjoying learning from your posts. But I just have to take exception to your choice of example!)
How do I fit in all this? The same way Henry Ford owns Ford Motor Co. He doesn't attach steering wheels and I don't set tiles. Henry Ford was accused of being too dumb. In a court proceeding he had to prove his intelligence. After a bunch of trivial questions by the lawyers intended to prove that he doesn't know much, he answered them "I don't have to know the answer to that question. I have a button in my office and when I press it I can summon the greatest minds that the world has to offer. Anything I wish to know, I ask them and they will immediately begin researching the answer till they get it for me."
His answer proved he was intelligent enough. He was intelligent enough to be an antisemitic supporter of Hitler!
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
yep few people know what a moron Ford was... just goes to show you anyone can get rich even an idiot
p
Sometimes I think a vision, determination, tenacity, and personality are much more important than intelligence to succeed in life and business.
I agree. I also think intelligence can stand in the way of progress. Instead of getting the job done, some people spend too much time intellectualizing it and finding reasons why it won't work Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
partial insomnia tonight....
Developed into great thread with your comments, even for those of us not pros in the business, pretty good education on construction business subjects that are beyond my capability.
One line that struck me in a later comment that I had to grin about was - Do the closest 1000 people living near you know that you are a qualified.........- yeah, they do, and that I work (or at least give advice) 'free'. Just in the last few weeks neighbors came over to ask how to fix an iced up fridge, another about the starter on his car, another to ask to use my metal lathe for one quick cut, still another to weld the handle bars for the kid's trike, another to weld their weather vane, can I dump my grass clippings on your compost, do you happen to have a 14mm tap, etc.
Advantage is to know folks in the neighborhood 2-3 blocks away and everybody watches out for eacy other, maybe that is payment enough<G>.
However, too #$&^%* many 'gift' zucchinies (SP) every year?
junkhound,
when blue wrote the line regaurding wether the 1000 closest people to you knew what you did-------------
i chuckled alsoI didn't appreciate that starting out 20 some years ago but by 10 years or so ago--I had realized that concept was critical for me. I talk pretty often here about most of my work coming in a 10 or 12 block radius
Even when I work outside that radius---it is almost always as a referall from within that area.Helper and I finished a job yesterday-----we were there 5 days and it is about 15 minutes from my home
we got the job--among other reasons-because the customers brother in law referred us---the brother in law lives 6 blocks away from us--and we did a project for him this spring
the brother in law got our name---because HIS neighbor referred us---we did a project for them las summer---and a previous one 9 years ago
THAt neighbor--got our name from another nearby referall--and so on.
for me-- that immediate vicinity thing is one of the keysin fact 3 years ago, I sold my long time home on a quiet side street----and bought a bigger home, bigger lot---at one of the major interesections in the neighborhood.-- I knew it would be good advertising. I would guess about half the neighborhood sees my truck or one of my signs every day--they see the house is beautifully maintained--the yard beautifully kept up--and the message sinks in.I gotta know the neighbors--and the neighbors neighbors---and what everybody does---and so on i had a deal with neighboring girlscouts at each house I owned
" when you are selling girlscout cookies-- I wanna be FIRST on your list--- if anybody buys MORE cookies than I do---you come back and I will top their order"- I usually start out with 12 boxes
the mom loves that
same type of thing with local baseball teams, the parish bulletin, what ever fundraiser the nearby kids are involved in.If the community is going to support me- I have to support the community.the nearby school secretary called yesterday-- i roofed her house 8 years ago--she wants something very minor done--- i will do it today-in the rain if need be--probably take 5 or 6 minutes----" remember Stephen-- i am a paying customer-I want to pay you for this"think I am going to charge her---of course NOT.
she is the school secretary in close contact with half the families in the neighborhood--and she will spend the next week talking about how good I take care of hergot to take care of the communitystephen
However, too #$&^%* many 'gift' zucchinies (SP) every year
There is a small lumber yard nearby that always has funny quotes, etc on thier sign.
A recurring saying is:
It's zuchinni season. Don't look your neighbor in the eye
How do you pay her? Base + commission?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Commission only. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I'm envious of how easily (it seems) you were able to follow "your cheese". I'm kinda stuck in michigan. I have 5 kids and 7 houses so i'm not going anywhere.
I'll just have to weather the storm out.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
ENVIOUS? EASY?Just cash out everything and leave MI with nothing and start over somewhere with no network, no contacts, no tools, no ability to work onsite and yes...I guess that is something to be envious about LOL!
Part of leaving the cheese is finding different opportunities in MI. That might mean opening a shop up in one of those abandoned manufacturing shops. Or opening an auto repair facility. Oh wait....you need a license to repair cars in MI!!!! Just thinking out loud...here in TX we can get all kinds of folks to come to our driveway and fix our cars on the spot.
i left home with no direction known once or twice although i did not have 5 kids and 7 houses. When does one know when the ship sinks. I really hope things pick up there for you from what i read i dont see much blue sky there for awhile
Well, 6 years ago our glorious governor told us "and in five years......you'll be blown away".
Didnt think back then, she was referring to tumbleweeds in the streets.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
"people will always deal with people they like.... "Especially people with money that can afford to choose. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
"listen and finally tell her I would be glad to come out but there is a charge as it sounds like it going to take a while as a design consultation. She is aghast that I would charge her for an estimate!"
Why not take the trip out there, meet the potential client, briefly sell your company, get an idea about what they want to do, and then tell them there is a design consultation charge? Telling them outright over the phone seems jumpy, especially when you know that the budget is an issue.
BTW- do you really charge for "estimates"? We charge for design and proposals, but I can give an estimate in about 5 seconds.
Finally, what do you to earn by potentially insulting a client (and the person who referred you to them)? I've wanted to speak my mind many times, but for the exception of one minor time, I've held back. I can tell you right now that the temporary gratification of making a snide remark would be long gone, but the assurance that there is no one out there who I intentionally insulted gives me a lot more security.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Problem being HO's dont know the difference between an estimate and a proposal.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Exactly as if I give them something in writing, THATS the final concrete price in their eyes.
Jon,
Yes, we do charge. I do not leave my house anymore unless I know at least my expenses are covered.
Within the past few years, I have made over 30 visits to projects and after I spent 20-30 minutes with them, they were all excited about my crendentials and how I was such a nice guy, then I tell them a ballpark price and its WOW! OK, we'll call you...never to hear from them again.
I appreciate being in the homeonwers shoes but I just can't afford to spend that kind of free time anymore.
Sure, maybe the wrong clients are calling me but I can't control that.
Oak river mike,
if you have only encountered 30 people like that over the past few years---at 20-30 minutes per person---or even 2 hours per person count yourself lucky--you are certainley money ahead of me on that. Very, VERY easily i have often encountered 30 people a MONTH like that and for a while last summer--after a hail storm- i was encountering more than 30 people a WEEK like that---at an hour or so per visit. hail storms aside---what i have come to implement over the last 3 years or so----is pretty much "By Referall Only" If a prospect calls---- I try very hard-and very friendly----- right then on the phone to find out how they got my name.If it is a referall I will do back flips for em--but I want to know WHO the referall came from( partly because I want to send a short handwritten thank you note to the person who gave out the referall).
a prospect that comes as a referall has a closing rate for me of waaaaaay over 50% but a person who got my name through an adv. or something---closing rate under 33% so basically i am willing to gamble unlimmited time on writing proposals for referalls-----but "other calls" i will often try to politeley excuse myself from the situation. If a call is from a referall---and i DON't want the project really--because it IS a referall i will STILL bend over backwards for the prospect.Really---take a look back the last few years at the jobs you actually SOLD----the ones that actually paid your bills-----that is where to spend your time---not running out writing estimates for anybody who blindly calls you. You MIGHT want to polish up your phone skills and your "brush-off" technique though--because what you described sounded a teenie bit rough.
best wishes,
stephen
Very good point Stephen as all of my great jobs were secured by folks I had known or knew me one degree removed yet most of the "cold calls" I get are much less lucrative.
I still dislike working for free though! :)
Thanks!
Mike
Like Stephen said, if you've made 30 visits in the past two years that have not led to jobs, I would think you're doing well.I think, as a whole, that tradesmen who form their own "businesses" do not charge enough and they fail to consider just how they're spending their time. However, I don't think you can get away from working for "free".I'm getting caught up on financial work today- who's paying me for that? Ultimately, our customers are, as we factor in a certain number of hours per year for overhead. Still, I cannot send a bill for this work to anyone, so I guess that means I'm working for "free".Sales is an essential part of every business, and most businesses will have to be prepared to spend time on prospects that won't buy. How would you respond to a car salesman who approaches you on the lot and, before he answers your questions about a car, makes you sign a Proposal compensating him for the time he will spend with you?All that to say, if you can get paid for any client or potential client meetings, more power to you. It's your right to do that and I'm glad it's working out for you.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
Very true as well. I guess when you work out the numbers, its not that bad. I just hate the idea of doing something for nothing yet EVERYONE elses charges me for their time. I mean, you call your vet to ask about a condition with your dog and the next thing you know, two days later you get an invoice for $20.! I guess thats why I feel my time has a price.
But you do make some good points...
Mike
jon.....<<<<BTW- do you really charge for "estimates"? We charge for design and proposals, but I can give an estimate in about 5 seconds.>>>>we don't charge for estimates eitherbut i pretty much tell them we don't do "estimates"we will prepare a Proposal .... for a fee
for this woman ... i would have met with her ( unless i had eliminated her by the telephone qualifier )i think it's best to lean towards the on-site visityou never know..... i blew a guy off last yearthe crew that moved in one week later is still working there 18 months later
complete gut/remodel of an old victorian
a face-to-face would have landed that job for us.... i have no doubt of itMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You blew it bigtime. You not only insulted yourself, you insulted the (possible) unknown person who did the recommendation. You don't have to work for free but it doesn't cost you a thing to be polite. It may cost you plenty for being nasty. The crack about being cute was totally uncalled for. It could very well come back to haunt you. Good luck.
Im just wondering how cute you really is;]
Want to see a pic big boy? ;)
Can you imagine the kind of person who cant afford what he buys, then destroys it, when he has to give back?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Oak River Mike,
Whoe there buddy. You missed a selling oppertunity..
First you listened to what she said without considering other things. Like body language, circumstances, and knowledge.
25 year old trophy wife? She's afraid of making a mistake and doesn't have the experiance or judgement to know when she's being treated right..
All she knows is she is afraid that people will take advantage of her.. that's why she started off on the defensive.
When dealing with people like that you need to work them. Grant them the deferance they think their money gives them. Don't waste your time either.. Be polite but be direct, whaty sort of budget did you have in mind ofr this sort of job? I'd hate to cut corners and give you cheap materials if you're thinking a better quaility job but as you know nothing good comes cheap..
That statement does two things..
Puts them on the defencive, Oh I can afford good stuff, and puts all the low ball guys out of the game..
It also set's you aside as someone who's not to be fooled with and what's better for you, makes you a consultant rather than a contractor.. consultants make far more money than contractors..
Thanks for opening this dialogue, and for having the cojones to state your case openly (for all to see, and for some to attack!). I completely sympathize with your viewpoint, but am learning a tremendous amount from all the helpful advice given here! Why I love BreakTime!
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
The first "referral" I got was such a nightmare, I wonder who was trying to stick it to me!
As for places that can't bear the sight of a lowly tradesman, or his vehicle .... well, be nice and give them directions to Home Depot. You have to have your rules, too!
Vague or shifting specifications, a focus on price, and wanting things 'free' all are red flags. Sure, there are folks who are nervous, never having worked with a contractor .... but there are also price-shoppers who exist to make life a real chore. After awhile, you get to know the tune, even if yoo only hear a few notes.
A possible approach, the next time, is to tell them you're on a ladder, in an attic, etc .... and ask if you can call them back in a few minutes. This gives you a chance to switch mental gears to "consumer 101." When you call back, you'll have a better attitude for explaining what you do, how you do it, etc.
As for the details ....
Nothing is as misleading as the voice on the phone. Many a 'little girl' has turned out to be an aging granny.
Money is tight? Of course it is - but don't let that distract you. After all, they're living nicer than you, so they need to think in terms of giving you a tip - not asking for a price break! (Like that will ever happen).
Edited 8/14/2008 9:34 am ET by renosteinke