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Ever build a castle?

CloudHidden | Posted in General Discussion on June 9, 2004 06:27am

Got a fun design project going with one part that’s stumping me. It’s a battlement coming out of a dome. The part I haven’t yet set on is how to get up there. They wanna use it as part sunning deck, part party deck, part observation deck, etc. So they wanna be able to get people up and down easily. That indicates stairs rather than ladder. That eliminates most hatches…just not big enough and don’t work so well with stairs. Don’t want to build a structure up there to hold a typ 6’8″ door, be/c it’d be visible above the merlons and mess up the openness of the roughly 20’D keep. (Dontcha love the names of the parts of a castle!)

The room below will be a library/tv room, and below that will be the kitchen, so the stairs will almost certainly follow the curved wall of the tower rather than come straight up the middle. Waterproofing will be important. Location is OH, so snow loads and snow melt is also a consideration.

So the question is, anyone see any approaches to deck access that would suit this situation. I have yet to find a product or setup I’m happy with. Hoping I’ve just mis-googled and the perfect solution is just a click away.

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  1. DougU | Jun 09, 2004 06:33am | #1

    Cloud

    I know that you dont want to have anything stick above the floor(I'm not building a castle so I dont have to learn the lingo!) but I dont see another solution, think of how light house keepers had to get access to the roof. Not what your looking for but I need the typing practice.

    Doug

    1. StanFoster | Jun 10, 2004 06:24am | #32

      Cloud:    That is an awesome design.  Several good ideas so far...I personally would build a spiral stairway wrapped around a column that goes right up through the center of the circular deck. That would be so pleasing to the eye..it would be a focal point.   I would design a cylindrical structure that stands centered on the deck as an exit point to the deck.  This could mirror the parapets on the outside curved wall.   Or...could be capped with a dome to mirror the other areas of the home.  I think this would make the deck look awesome and also more finished....and also solving the weather proofing as well.  Here is a typical column supported spiral that has tenoned tread supports mortised through the post.

      Stan

      1. User avater
        CloudHidden | Jun 10, 2004 02:33pm | #33

        Thanks, Stan.

        1. ian | Jun 10, 2004 03:23pm | #35

          Cloud

          thinking laterally, the water/snow load problem is that faced by yachties all the time, how to keep water out of the cabin. 

          How about a setting the stairs into the curved wall of the room?  you could utilise the space underneath for book shelves, hi-fi, TV, and even windows and lounges once the head room was restored.  (you did say the central room was to be for TV/entertainment?)   At the top design a hatch coaming consisting of a 3-4ft high door that opens outwards into a shallow drainage pan.  This door would be large enough to get out of if you had to access the roof whilst it had snow on it.  The rest of the opening could be a telescoping hatch coaming mounted on rails.  During summer you would roll the hatch back so that a person walking up the stairs just emerged into the sunshine.  The edges of the coaming structure would function as the safety rail arround the roof opening. 

          BTW, I assume the roof will have a slope of between 3 and 5% so that the rain will drain off. 

          Ian

          1. mitch | Jun 10, 2004 03:56pm | #36

            "Just a point of view Cloud, but the merlons make me want to have a cigarette....."

            had to look at the picture again, and yeah, i see what ya mean. ;-)

            m

        2. maverick | Jun 16, 2004 02:04am | #44

          Trying to determine either hatch or door. Why not both?

          As you get to the top of the stairs you open a 3 foot tall door then open the hatch to reveal the last few steps.

  2. rez | Jun 09, 2004 06:46am | #2

    Is it possible to design a curved stair and an opening without a covering. Just opens up unto the deck like a square hole with a drainage system that takes rain outside the walls? Like level metal grill steps atop concrete steps that slant to a gutter mechanism? The stairway hall would be like an outside enclosure?

    Could be insulated and weather tight at the door at the base of the stairs?



    Edited 6/8/2004 11:53 pm ET by rez

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 09, 2004 04:26pm | #11

      >Could be insulated and weather tight at the door at the base of the stairs?

      Sort of like a big chimney. Useful idea, but the rest of the plan is tight enough that we couldn't give up that much room at that location. Wish we could. I've wanted to do that kind of atrium for awhile.

    2. ian | Jun 10, 2004 02:59pm | #34

      Is it possible to design a curved stair and an opening without a covering. Just opens up unto the deck like a square hole with a drainage system that takes rain outside the walls?

      you mean something like the hatch in a submarine's conning tower? 

  3. User avater
    JeffBuck | Jun 09, 2004 07:19am | #3

    inside out castle stairs.

    You'll have to fly me over to England to freshen up on such things ...

    but I remember roing round and round working our way up many a castle step.

    I can see the same thing fitting in here ... 'cept instead of a tight ..."inside" spiral ...

    It goes around the outside of the turret ... then just opens onto a level deck landing ... well protected inside the tower walls.

    There's going to use this for outside activities, right? ... seeing as how the deck is ... uh ... outside.

    So who's to bitch if ya step outside on the first or the last step ...

    I'll take my design commission in belgium beer.

    OK ... castle design ... make it Scottish .... Traquair will do nicely.

    (don't be cheap .. send all 24 bottles.....)

    Jeff

    Buck Construction, llc   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 09, 2004 04:23pm | #10

      My first proposal to them was just that. I curved the stairs up the inside, exited over the dome roof, then another stairs outside like you described. Avoided the water problem entirely. They prefer a solution that doesn't take the platform 7'6 above the landing. It also made the library/tv room kinda tall. I liked the effect, but they weren't so sure. They wanted closer to 3' or 4'.

      Still, after some time mulling it over, I haven't found anything that handles water better and gives them more usable space up top. Think I may just have to convince them that the alternatives are worse.

      As for the beer, it's here chilling. Come an get it. Anyone else who took the time is welcome, too. And if we aren't here, just let yourselves in...the key's under the....shoot, youse wouldn't bother with a key, would you?

  4. PhillGiles | Jun 09, 2004 07:50am | #4

    The classic (as shown here) is a derrick; however, leaping forward 900 years, the same thing could be accomplished by gas shocks or a pneumatic cylinder at the end of a lever.

    .

    Phill Giles

    The Unionville Woodwright

    Unionville, Ontario



    Edited 6/9/2004 12:55 am ET by Phill Giles

    1. PhillGiles | Jun 09, 2004 07:54am | #6

      Wrong picture.

      Phill Giles

      The Unionville Woodwright

      Unionville, Ontario

      1. User avater
        JeffBuck | Jun 09, 2004 07:57am | #7

        so what ever did come of that watchdog and the ethics code story?

        JeffBuck Construction, llc   Pittsburgh,PA

             Artistry in Carpentry                

        1. PhillGiles | Jun 09, 2004 08:00am | #8

          ?.

          Phill Giles

          The Unionville Woodwright

          Unionville, Ontario

  5. gordsco | Jun 09, 2004 07:53am | #5

    Rez's idea sounds pretty cool. If I got it right. The interior stairway curves upward to a weatherproof door. Walk through, The stairway continues up the outside of the wall and enters through the Drum Tower deck, just inside the Parapet.

    Just a point of view Cloud, but the merlons make me want to have a cigarette.....

    -quick subject change-

    Is that a Hummer in the driveway?

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 09, 2004 04:38pm | #12

      What you mention is essentially how I read Jeff's, too, and matches my proposal to them. I think I'll just have to convince them that any other is costlier.

      That's a non-specific SUV. But coincidentally, their specs included "garage space for two Hummers." They don't have them but might someday and wanna plan ahead. Nice people who I'm enjoying working with.

      1. gordsco | Jun 10, 2004 01:32am | #21

        Very cool project Cloud, an exposed interior stairway leading to a single door high in a curved wall could be visualy spectacular.

        In the less is more department, do you remember that FH issue with the no stringer stairway that hung off metal brackets built into the wall? 

        Naaaa, would be too frightening to climb.

        1. User avater
          CloudHidden | Jun 10, 2004 01:49am | #23

          >do you remember that FH issue with the no stringer stairway that hung off metal brackets built into the wall? 

          Yes. And with this being reinforced concrete walls, wouldn't even need brackets. Fun, but undoubtedly intimidating to many potential party-goers.

  6. kostello | Jun 09, 2004 08:55am | #9

    seems to me that you need 2 towers a gate house and a drawbridge!!!

    i wanted to put a drawbridge on our house but that idea went the way of the dodo, not surprisingly

  7. User avater
    aimless | Jun 09, 2004 11:08pm | #13

    Have you thought of stairs partway up to a water-proof hatch, or a door with threshold, followed by a couple of stairs to finish the ascent out in the open? You just need to provide drainage for the outside stairs out through the wall. It won't eat up any more deck space than open stairs would.

    All of the castles I visited in Scotland had military purposes for their towers. Stairs were steep, uneven in rise (purposefully) and twisted in a direction to favor the swordarm of the master of the castle if he was fighting from above defending. Lookouts and archers are expected to be able to make that last little bit on the ladder themselves.  I did visit at least one that had a little structure above the stairs so you didn't need to climb. Just make the structure in keeping with the tower - looks like a little baby tower popping out the top. From the ground you can't see it because the tower is so high the angle is wrong.

  8. CAGIV | Jun 09, 2004 11:53pm | #14

    I don't know about the up part, but how about a brass fire pole on the down stroke?

    you said party deck right?

    stick the pole +/- 10' out the top, design a plug to cover the floor, and you got yourself a stripper pole ;)

    on a more serious note, anyway you could do the stairs on the outside of the building, wraped around the dome?

    Team Logo

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 10, 2004 12:10am | #15

      Thanks Amy. Thanks Neil. And thanks for the link you sent, KRIESEL. Contemplating all.

      >anyway you could do the stairs on the outside of the building, wraped around the dome?

      Stairs on a compound curve would be a real pain.

      1. stonefever | Jun 10, 2004 03:21am | #27

        Several comments:

        1.  A spiral staircase seems called for - but at what radius and centered upon what?

        2.  This deck you mention and its uses as you describe, is this how you expect it to be really used?

        3.   Your outside 3D perspective is impressive and says a lot.  However, where have you gone on the inside - meaning a cross section across the middle?  It most likely is where you're working now, asking the question as you have, but I'm getting to how the inside of the central dome is diminisioned.  Not meaning to get into your design intellectual property, but more of whether a second floor is being/can be considered.

        If you have room for multiple floors inside that central dome, I'm thinking the stairs could have a greater radius on the bottom, increasing up to a central spiral inside an enclosed room within and on the same level as the deck.  Exit/entrance would be from that room onto the deck thru an exterior door.

        But this may cause for the central dome to be larger than what you've drawn.

        My overall concern is for just how this space will be used.  How easy will it be to service/store items on that deck.  How will that chaise be brought up there and where does it go in the winter?

        Don't get me wrong - I think this is a really neat concept.  It's a question of marrying that concept with practical use.  Maybe a hoist/lift/dumbwaiter in the center?

        1. rez | Jun 10, 2004 03:33am | #28

          Guidelines:

          <So they wanna be able to get people up and down easily.>

          <Don't want to build a structure up there to hold a typ 6'8" door, be/c it'd be visible above the merlons and mess up the openness of the roughly 20'D keep.>

          <so the stairs will almost certainly follow the curved wall of the tower rather than come straight up the middle.>

          <They prefer a solution that doesn't take the platform 7'6 above the landing. It also made the library/tv room kinda tall. I liked the effect, but they weren't so sure. They wanted closer to 3' or 4'.>

          1. stonefever | Jun 10, 2004 03:36am | #29

            Go ahead and shoot holes in my balloon.  I don't care!! G.

            I'm going to have to email you my posts first from now on.

      2. UncleDunc | Jun 10, 2004 04:17am | #31

        >> Stairs on a compound curve would be a real pain.

        Oil refineries have been doing it for years.

        http://www.ishii-iiw.co.jp/seihin/sub/kyu-kei01.jpg

        http://www.asahigas.co.jp/e/topics/img/topi03_09.jpg

  9. fingers | Jun 10, 2004 12:33am | #16

    My brother -in-law worked on a very high end house on the ocean where the owner's instructions to the builder were "make it look like a ship".  (There was essentially no upper end to the budget on this project)  Anyway on the roof was a widow's walk, and to access it, you went up stairs and came to a ship's wheel on the wall which was connected to a hydraulic cylinder, which opened a glass covered hatch on the widow's walk.  It was very cool, however I guess this owner doesn't want any thing sticking up above level of the floor/deck.  Good luck. Hve fun!

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 10, 2004 01:51am | #24

      >Anyway on the roof was a widow's walk

      A widow's walk would be VERY cool looking here, be/c it could easily extend along the peak of the barrel vault. We'll see if they wanna spring for it.

      Thanks to everyone.

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Jun 10, 2004 02:38am | #25

        submarine stairs..might google it and see what flies out of the ointment..I used some in a manufacturing shop back in PA..they (at the time) had an assortment of layouts, and hatches.. 

        Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

      2. JohnSprung | Jun 10, 2004 03:56am | #30

        Consider that access is only needed in good weather, so it could be from the outside.  Look at it not from the point of view of the defenders of the castle, but rather from that of the enemy.  Disguise the stairs as a siege engine, complete with big wooden wheels.

        -- J.S.

  10. Gabe | Jun 10, 2004 12:52am | #17

    Cloud,

    I think that I would lean towards a skylight assembly as the hatchway. Spiral staircase around a center pole would fit in. The skylight would be rectangular and would be hinged on the long side of course. It would open like a coffin lid.(sorry about that)

    The dome's battlement would have to have scuppers on the perimeter to allow the water to drain free from the enclosure.

    The doom's design shouldn't have difficulty handling the snow loads and the center pole could provide added structural strength.

    Just a few thoughts

    Gabe

  11. Snort | Jun 10, 2004 01:05am | #18

    How bout something all outside, like steps to a mountain observation deck. Up between two of the "spokes" over the dome to the shadow of the parapet overhang. Do a landing, then steps that spiral up to a landing at a notch in the parapet, which is at floor level of the tower?

    Could be metal or shot crete, or both! Be real easy to defend, too LOL

    Then, just add the pneumatic tube to get my beer up there<G>

    Don't worry, we can fix that later!

  12. mike4244 | Jun 10, 2004 01:10am | #19

    Install a hydraulic elevator.

    mike

    1. User avater
      aimless | Jun 10, 2004 01:17am | #20

      I thought about that too - but you need a way to escape if the power goes out.

      1. fdampier5 | Jun 11, 2004 04:24am | #40

        Aimless, with my forklift upright as a (frieght) elevator, if the power goes out you step into the elevator and move the lift lever slowly into the down directiion. the pressure bleeds off and the elevator lowers just as smooth as a baby's butt.  In fact the only time you actually use power is on the way up!  If power should ever go out  you simply reverse direction and settle back down. 

          You could make a battery back up system but to my way of thinking simpler is better..

  13. User avater
    aimless | Jun 10, 2004 01:45am | #22

    Yeah,  I saw that after I posted. Great minds?

  14. fdampier5 | Jun 10, 2004 02:49am | #26

    You might consider my solution to a similar kind of problem..

       I designed a elevator that when it raises acts as it's shelter, fall protection but when it is lowered retracts flat. 

      The roof and three sides  are a really thick piece of  ploycarbonite. 3/4 inch on sides and 1 inch thick on the roof.  You would need to do something like a ship does with scuppers around the edge that drain water and melted snow off..

      To raise and lower my "elevator"  I use the upright from a forklift driven by a 110 volt pump to drive the hydraulic pump..

  15. DavidxDoud | Jun 11, 2004 12:50am | #37

    I'll bite...my suggestion is a spiral stair in (for want of a word I don't know) a 'silo' - -

     this silo (maybe 6' in diameter) is integrated into the battlement wall,  appearing as a half-round projection - - possibly it runs all the way to the ground floor,  but from the second floor,  you open a door,  enter the silo,  ascend the spiral staircase,  exiting onto the deck through a door - - the shelter for the exit door is integrated into the merlon design - - it probably would have a bigger silhouette, but because it is at the perimeter,  it should not be an intrusive feature - -

    "there's enough for everyone"
    1. Treetalk | Jun 11, 2004 03:45am | #38

      whos' going to live there anyway..the telletubbies?

      1. User avater
        CloudHidden | Jun 11, 2004 04:14am | #39

        Hey hey, none of that!

    2. MarkfromBoring | Jun 11, 2004 09:07pm | #41

      Cloud-

      Idea 1. Would a double wall on the turret be possible?  I am guessing that the turret with such load requirements would have a supporting wall or sections.  If the platform is 20 feet in diam. how large is supporting dome. You could have a stair case up the outside the supporting wall to a landing with access to the double turret wall. 

      Then circular staircase up to landing with access to turret platform.  The double wall turret could provide storage lockers or closets for barbeque, chairs, folding tables, umbrellas, games, sound system, tv,etc.... oh yeah and mini bar.  If the "guard rail" of the turret is too high or wide due to storage areas or the access point raised viewing or sitting area could be incorporated.  See  attachment I then II.

      Idea 2.  Inside stair case to Turret wall (could be like the bottom of a fire escape). Circular staircase inside turret to landing under turret platform. Open hatch raised by hydraulic lifts much like a cover for a pickup bed.  Lift up step ladder extension with hand rail and you have access to turret platform.  See attachment III.Anything I put my mind to, I could do..... given time, money, etc....

  16. User avater
    CloudHidden | Jun 15, 2004 10:45pm | #42

    Here's the solution of the moment. Gonna bring a door from the tower (curved stairs on inside of tower) to the roof. Then curve stairs up the outside of the tower and have them come up the inside of the battlement. The engineer will let me notch the main dome where the door comes out to save about 4' on the tower height. Not shown in the drawing, be/c it's a pita to render. Added the widow's walk...client loved that, so thanks for the idea.

    1. User avater
      GoldenWreckedAngle | Jun 15, 2004 11:02pm | #43

      In keeping with the style:

      http://www.trebuchet.com/Kevin Halliburton

      "The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)

    2. User avater
      JeffBuck | Jun 16, 2004 02:07am | #45

      Looks like I have to come and get my beer .....

      JeffBuck Construction, llc   Pittsburgh,PA

           Artistry in Carpentry                

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