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I think it’s safe to say we’ve all done jobs we wished at the time had never come along. Whether it was because the customer cheated you out of some well earned cash or the job was just one headache after another. Basically well-learned lessons not wanted to be repeated.
So my question is have you ever had a feeling, no red flags, just a gut feeling that you may want to avoid doing a certain job?
Earlier this year I had one of those gut feelings. I met with this gentleman about some light repair work on his house and a couple out buildings. He was a referred by a friend that I talk with only a couple times a year. After getting the specifics about work to be done this gentleman and I talked on various topics, and at one time in the conversation he said he was a lawyer and “got out of the game” and is now happy doing freelance writing. While running the numbers in my office for the bid I realized something didn’t feel right but had no specific reasons for my apprehension, so I went ahead and submitted the bid anyway. A month and a half after submitting the bid I get a message that he would like to go ahead with the work (my bid specifically says not valid after 15 days). Now my apprehension has grown to the point that I’m not doing the job, period. To make a long story short, I recently spoke with the referring friend and admitted that I didn’t do the work I had no valid reasons for not doing it. Well I guess my intuition was not without merit, our lawyer buddy was disbarred for drug abuse and a few other things were “odd” in that household as well. The job may have gone fine, but I would rather not do the work and wish I had, than do the work and wish I hadn’t. Now if I could just get a feeling about those winning lotto numbers.
Call it intuition, a sixth sense or just a gut feeling but have you ever decided to avoid a job because of it?
Scott R.
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Scott
Nurture this intuition, use it to find customers who you respect and you'll be very sucessful. The more experience you have the more you realize sucess in business is not determined by the job but by the people involved.
Terry
*Anyone who wants to dicker on the price, I'm walking. I've had too many customers tell me I'm not expensive enough (that is happening less and less). I'm not talking about someone who want to negotiate the price down by changing the job parameters.Rich Beckman
*I had a carpenter on a job tell me one time when MacDonalds will negotiate prices on their BigMacs, he'll bargain price his work. Otherwise, its pay what he says or "eat" elsewhere!I like that analogy.Mike
*When I still owned my sons company we had a division we called the “condo division”, only because most of the small jobs were done for condo and home owner associations - about 121 of them. We dissolved it because we got to busy in the remodeling end.Anyway, after I sold the company to the boys, I started my present company and most of my work is for the same associations. However, after reading about a consulting company that “fired” what they called their “non-producing” clients - the 80/20 rule - I did the same. Told the property management companies that serviced them that I would no longer do work for what ended up being about 35 associations. Then I raised our previous pricing structure and another 30-40 “fired” me. Now I have a nice group of about 50 associations where we’ve developed a good relationship and the point where most of the Work Orders state “Repair & Invoice.” Condo and home owner associations act the same as private people who want/need something done. The cheap ones (indicative by the selling price of their units) chisel and will often hire the painter themselves wanting you or I to only do the carpentry end. Those in the high end district want me to do the carpentry “and” do the painting myself (knowing I cost much more than a painter) or sub it out and put my markup on it and write the painting specs supervise the work.Those newbies in the industry would be very smart to realize their value, and market themselves only to those who appreciate their work, work habits and caliber of character. When providing “services” , it is a 2-way street, so be appreciative yourself of those good people who call upon you, and grow while developing a base of clients who are also deserving of your services.
*Scott RYou have brought up a sensitive subject that I have wanted to discuss via this forum.We all seem to be striving for the day when we can say that we do no advertising, that all our work comes from "word of mouth". Most builders view this as the highest level of operation, I believe. Since starting my own company, I have spent the entire advertising budget, excepting business cards, on gifts to past clients or supporters as reward for referrals. Here are my questions:Question 1. If the referral doesn't result in a contract being signed, do you still gift the person who gave you a recommendation? After all, they did what you said you would "pay" them to do. (After I complete a job I give the clients some business cards in a folding holder to make it convenient for them and offer the gift of a night out.) It isn't their fault that you didn't close the sale.My Answer 1. Yes, I think you should. Which brings me to my next question.Question 2. What if your best past/current client refrers you to someone your gut feeling tells you is the client from hell? When they ask you, "Did you get that job?", how do you say, "I decided not to work for one of your best friends because of my reaction to him personally"? "And by the way, since you mentioned it, can I get some more refferals?"Answer 2..........Thomas
*Thomas, Question #2 has happened to me quite a few times. One customer is great and they refer me to a friend who appears to be well, lets call it like it is...a jerk! I tell the friend I am really busy and jack the price up so if I HAVE to endure them, they'll wait until I'm totally caught up with other work (likley 3-4 months) and they'll pay a lot of extra $$$ for my work as I know I'm in for some grief. And if I really have a bad feeling about it, I'll just tell them it'll be a LONG time before I can get to their project. (maybe 6 months or longer) No one wants to wait that long... ...and when the original friend asks, I say "Sorry, I really wanted to help them out but was really busy"Mike
*I agree with Rich. If they start dickering, that is a red flag. I have only had one client dicker on the original price. It was that way through the whole project. It just made me insist on more upfront. It made me learn how important it is to have almost everything in writing. I came out fine, but it was the only stairway I built that I did not enjoy doing.
*I try to find out as much as possible talking to a customer before bidding. Listen for tell tale signs of the never satisfied customer. Had one with an antique car, I know little about them but he proceeded to tell me about the restoration horrors he had. Like they repainted it 3 times before they got it right, and the seats were done over twice etc...This was one of those customers who loves the phrase " Thats unacceptable" and I just haven't come up with a come back for that, and I also didn't have a bid.
*In my first fe years of business, I'd work for anybody. In my last few years of business I don't work for most people that I come in contact with.If the client meets my standards, I'll give them a "bid". If they dicker, whine and agree, I'm okay. Remember, if they don't intend to pay, they don't care how much the price is!blue
*Scott,If I didn't listen to that little voice I would have been eaten by the loins a long time ago.Trust your feelings.Now, if your feelings tell you that EVERYBODY is out to get you or that aliens are living in your attic, see a shrink.Ed.
*Edward,No aliens in my attic..........there are, however, some black helicopters staying just out of sight no matter where I go!Thomas
*I recently turned down a fairly large job (for me anyway). The husband is a car salesman (no offense Jeff Buck), and I just didn't like him. I could see this job going around in circles. May have been a good job, but my gut tells me when to bail, and it was literally GROWLING at this one (or maybe I was hungry). Our guts tell us more than we care to listen to, and are right more times than not. My gut instincts have sure kept me from serious heartaches before, so I'll keep trusting them.James DuHamel
*Great topic...one hard to articulate since it isn't based on science.I trust it. Saves my ass on a regular basis. And I think the best policy with explaining to your client why you didn't bid the work of their friend or referal is to be honest, "It didn't work out, wasn't a good fit". I've seen that work as more of a compliment to my good client rather than an insult. That gut feeling is also called intuition. Women know all about it and they trust it more than they trust their hubby. It is something I had to learn to listen to also. When it fails me, (rare) a good contract saves me.The very worst situation is one I refer to as a "Stealth Customer". This is the client who appears to be one thing right up to where they sign the contract, then, before your very eyes, turns into this evil, screaming being who now thinks the contract gives them title to your life for a minimum of 8 hours a day,/7 days a week, until the contract is complete. Happened to me about 9 years ago........sheez...still makes me shiver to think about it....Ever happen to any of you guys?
*Three times over a period of thirteen years I inner into agreements in carpentry work. And when I started the work the customer became unreasonable with demanding perfection.In my opinion if you agree to the contract a customer have the right to expect and demand quality. But perfection is something that need to be pay for.In all three cases, I left the job with out receiving any payment at all. I do not like to do buisness this way, but sometimes a customer will leave you with no alternative.Larry
*Did I type "loins"?I meant "lions". You know, the king of the jungle?Eaten by the loins..........Man, I need a vacation. And it's only January 2nd.It's gonna be a loooooong year.Ed.
*Mark, I had one that caused me to stop remodeling. The job got dragged out due to lack of a mason (it's tough to find a mason to lay 1000 brick when things are hopping). I finally got a mason in there moonlighting on the weekends. but he dragged it on, and on, and on. I went through three PMS cycles and chose framing over suicide. The client stills owes me $2500. My lawyer at that time told me to forget it....Man, I wish I had some sort of legal knowledge/insurance back then. I know one letter from a lawyer would have forced some sort of settlement. I didn't know enough then to ask for a simple letter....with a big threat that I knew I couldn't live up to. I couldn't justify laying out a retainer greater than my collection problem.blue
*Blue,In my state, that sucker would get his ass sued in small claims......Don't you have Small Claims in your state?P.S. Gotta brother who's a Lawyer........
*Probrably feel like hell either way, Ed, ......no matter how you typed it.
*Mark, can a Corporation sue someone in small claims court?Having a brother who is a lawyer is great. What is his specialty? If he is an expert on medical law, would you trust his knowledge about divorce law? Will he travel to other counties, or othe states?Certainly having a brother who is a relative helps you tremedously, but it still doesn't mean that you don't need some other plan for dealing with the day to day realities of construction contracting.blue
*> Certainly having a brother who is a relative helps you tremedouslyLOL! What is the alternative!!Rich Beckman
*I did a small job when I first started and didn't get paid so I went to my local bill collector, who if anybody (and has a reputation to match) could get what was owing. But he struck out. My wife use to work for a lawyers office and went to see a friend of hers. The lawyer said that since I altered the structure from its original state I am liable for the house for ten years. It will be a cold day in hell if they think they could win. My gut instinct kicked in from that day on and when I look at a job and I know its just something to run not walk to the nearest exit I throw the job in my million dollar drawer. If you want it done it will be a million dollars minimum.
*here's one that's kind of related...FIL was dealing w/ a contractor in PA who related a story about a job he had done a while back.Only met the husband 1 time when they signed the contract, thereafter the guy was always away on business. The wife would always tactfully change the subject when asked what her husband did for a living.The job proceeded well and the checks kept coming and none bounced but still no hubby. (project was a very nice 2500# home, FIL Drove me by while telling this story) The contractor kept working since the money was there, and finally the house was finished. After they moved in he got a call from them inviting him to dinner. He was real curious to find out about this guy, or maybe he didn't want to know. Turns out the guy was a leading scientist in the development of the stealth fighter/bomber. He literally could not leave Area 54 till the project was done. He didn't say wether he met the aliens or not!!Mr T
*Instincts get honed by hard experience sometimes. I listen to any hint of warning my guts give me and either charge accordingly or walk away, depending.It's like learnig to skate. You fall down and when you get up, you're thinking, "Well, now that's one of the ways I've learned how NOT to do it!"Or when I was skiing beyond my ability once in Steamboat, I managed to break both legs. Rotational hairline fracture is what I think the doc called it. You can still walk on it unless you bang it (which hurts like Well...) and unless you put a rotational torsion/torque on it. So I skied the rest of the day because I was going to get my money's worth out of the ticket price and didn't know yet that they were broke, just figured 'em for bruised.Anyway, the pain made me a very care and precise skier with beautifully carved turns instead of a barnstorming mogul pounder. It made me a much better skier. Same with relationship in home improvements. It can take a little pain to recognize or train and awaken those instincts. Call it an innoculation. Now Blue, are you afraid of all needles because you've been vacinated? ;>)The way I deal with that sub problem and scheduling is to do the small items like that myself when it isn't worthwile for a sub. I can control my own schedule better. Of course with my back gone, I'm having to learn to be a better manager too. I don't forsee myself laying too many bricks in the future.
*The gut instinct is important, but remember that it goes both ways. When I speak with someone new, I tell him the worst possible scenario and exactly what my expectations will be. I may or may not dicker on price, according to what I think the price should be. In essence, I try to scare the person off because I don't want anyone working on my job who isn't going to deliver what I need.My biggest problem is people who want the job and claim to have better skills than they really do. This is also the guy who gets into money and "perfection" issues, because his first try isn't acceptable and he has to do it over. He starts thinking that I expect perfection, because he lacks the skills to do competent work in the first place, and that the money isn't enough because he can't complete the job the first time around.I don't want to find out after he's on the job that he can't deliver. As to lawyers (and brothers who are relatives), we all think that we're right and that having a gun in our holster would get us what we deserve. Some times that's true, other times not. I will only sue someone who tries to screw me. An honest mistake, or basic incompetence, I let pass. No one can go through life suing everyone who doesn't meet every expectation. It just isn't good for the soul, and we learn that we aren't always right.On a final note, I never expected that I would say this, but Orlo isn't as crazy as he seems.SHG
*SHG<That second to last paragraph about Lawyers was very good. One of the things I admire about my brother is his reluctance to sue. Reluctance based on the same premise that you state. Mistakes. Also, Will you win? Or to be more precise, What will you win?Piffin's definition of: "Instinct get honed by experience" was also very good.Yeah, blue, corporations can sue in small claims. I highly recommend it......if you have a case.
*I know a lot of people who have won judgements in small claims court, I don't know any who have collected. In NC, anybody can go to small claims court, you just have to represent yourself...Intuition, bad hit, heebie jeebies, it's worth covering your butt if you feel somthing like that. The times I got burnt were times when I had bumped up my prices 'cause I didn't feel quite right. I'm not quite sure how to interpret that...One I didn't catch: framer stiffed me for a weeks work, $320 in '89. I reported it to the NC Industrial Commission (a whole 'nother story) they took it to court and won! I was supposed to be satisfied they won, why would I want any moola? Ten years later, I get a check for $926. The guy finally filed a tax return, and, thought he was getting a refund. Hey, I called it a "re-fun", paid for a wek at the beach...
*Bucksnort,Not a bad return on investment.There's a cop out west who owed me about 550 back in about 1979. That would be worth 3-5 grand if invested right for all this time. About six months after he stiffed me and I had finally given up, he pulled me over for applying a rather liberal interpretation of the speed limit to my vehiclar progress over his road. He was curious at first why I was standing there smiling while I handed him my license. After he looked at it, his jaw dropped and he said, "Oh shgit, it's you. Take this and get out of here. I'm busy" He then RAN back to his patrol car and headed the other way. My memories of this have been priceless - not that I wouldn't mind having the money but it's the only debt I've ever needed to write off -not including friends and family, of course.I suppose that I've also got to figure in the savings on the fine and increased insurance costs on my otherwise unblemished record.
*Has anyone here worked on commercial/industrial jobs (multi-million $)?I have sat in on some meetings with the contractor, architect, developer and client project manager that would blow your mind. We did a job building a call center (100k sqft) for a very well known security firm and the amount of screaming, cursing, physical threats and threats about litigation was just outrageous. Makes that homeowner who wants perfection seem tame. In the end everyone acts like nothing happened, its actually pretty comical when looking in from the outside.
*Sometimes it's just a game to them but it can be an expensive one.
*> I know a lot of people who have won judgments in small claims court; I don't know any who have collected.Billy, EXACTALLY! Once awarded the judgment it's your responsibility to get the money. Without that knowledge a person is just wasting time seeking judgment. I learned that the hard way.I know a guy that had a similar case as yours. He did work for a Dr. that stiffed him out of a couple grand so he filed a lien on Dr's house. Since a lien on real property is only valid for a certain period his wife would renew the lien like clockwork. After 14 years the Dr. tried to sell his house, but guess what he can't get clear title. The Dr. wanted to bargain and pay only the original amount. No deal the contractor gets the accrued interest and a sweet taste of justice. I love happy endings.Scott R.
*Scott, Your 100 percent right, if any one doesn't want to pay a judgment, you'll normally spend more money trying to collect it if this person understand the law. This can also work both way. If someone sue you and with a little understanding of the law you can make this person life a living nightmare.And probably will spend more money than he/her will never collect. I know this because I've been sue 7 or 8 times myself. I also have one more thing to say about this subject. Depending upon the situation or problems, somethings it better to go ahead and pay before it never goes to court. I found this out the hard way. I was ones sue for $1500. and ended up pending $5000.fighting with the attorneys and courts.I should have just went ahead and pay the $1500. and then went on with my work. I'm not a attorney, so these are only my opinions.Larry
*Scott:I never lost money on a job I didn't get.
*I'm not exactly in the same boat, but sort of. I often have prints come across my desk that I don't want to bid. The red flags for me are:1. Drew their own print, or had a friend draw it on autocad. (Or one of those $19.95 programs from K-mart)2. They mention they'ry getting a bunch of bids.3. They're acting as their own GC (Sometimes bad, sometimes no big deal)4. They want something wierd. (Like the guy who wanted to set his floor trusses directly on the foundation, and figured the house would hold them down)5. They ask if we're price competitive, or if our lumber is as good as "brand x".Unlike you guys who own your own businesses, I generally have no choice as to whom I quote stuff to. So I jack up the price, Make them wait a long time for a quote, and/or exaggerate how far out we are, etc. Sometimes it helps to think of it as a "game", as Piffin mentioned. But I'm sure it doesn't feel like a game when it's your own money on the line.
*Never forget or overlook the "people factor".You are always better off with no work than with work that bleeds you dry.
*1 Nay ?