Whenever I put on my harness, I can’t help but wonder what it would be like to actually fall wearing one of them.
That can’t feel good.
Almost always (not in all circumstances; at times it is an encumbrance) I do feel safer wearing one, but I strongly hope I never have to test one.
So. . . what’s it like?
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Replies
I can tell you what it feels like to fall NOT wearing one!
would that help?
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Nope. I wear the thing whenever I'm obliged to by law, so an unarrested fall is unlikely for me.
Most people don't ever get trained in rescue and retrieval in the event of a fall. A lot more crucial than one may wish to contemplate.
Re
"
I can tell you what it feels like to fall NOT wearing one!
would that help?"
Inquiring minds want to know!!! Work related? Ladder? Roof? etc.
I feel like I am still dodging the bullet. Grew up on a farm and did stuff I should have never gotten away with. I am more cautious in my old age but still scratch my head and count 10 fingers with nails.
First time while I was in school still. I was hired by an old couple to paint a house and got the idea that it would be easier to paint the gable end fascia from the roof instead of constantly moving the ladder. I was reaching down under me too far with my fine butt up in the air when a gust of wind removed me from the roof. I flipped as I fell about 14' into a 4-5' tall bunch of hedge thorny bushes. got out of it with nothing but scratches and took the day off. I wa salready in the bush before I knew I was falling.Then there were a couple ladder rides that don't count for this discussion.Then there was the time my roof jack cut loose from the sheathing. it was the bottom one and I knew I was going. It was 26' down to a pile of rocks and rebar ..Time slowed down to a crawl while my gut tightened up so you couldn't have stuck an ice pick into it.
As I went over the edge, I had time to think about how much it was likely to hurt and to wonder how the jack could have come loose from under me.It's a wonder I didn't tear the fingernails out on my left hand. My fingertips and knuckles were all shredded from raking across the shingles for a few feet.I had one single 2x12 access plank sticking out that happened to be right under me about 5-6 feet down. BOTH of my feet landed squarely on that and I fell into a balance crouch like a wrestler as I watched my hat, tools, wristwatch, etc tumble slow motion all the way to the bottom.The owner/builder was nearby and he had called out something like, "Are you OK Paul" three times before it registered in my brain, then all of a sudden that time slow down snapped off and I heard all three at once and I was back in normal time, and answered, " Uh, yeah, I think so..."One more fall - where it happened fast - I was sweeping some light snow off a 3/12 to get started. good enough footing up above, but the bottom 6' was bituthene slippery ( back when it didn't have the walkable texture) I was using a push broom and staying back from that, but I spaced out for a second and without thinking stepped on some frost on that stuff. I slid off the roof completely verticaland came to a point wjhere it seemed like I was suspended in the air for a second just immediately off the edge of the roof before starting my descent. I looked down and saw the broom handle sticking up straight between my legs and thought, "Oh boy, this is going to hurt"Next thing I knew I was laying down in the snow and ice with the wind knocked out of me and my partner leaning over me to ask how I was.
I had come down in the verticle position, but focused on using my legs to kick that broom aside, so I didn't land so well, but once I could breathe again, I found I was not hurt and went right back to work.Funny thing how your mind processes stuff like this.
The one where I could have dropped 25' onto rubble left me with nightmares about falling that sometimes still come back to haunt me. After starting with this thread, I dreamed last night that a guy I know had fallen off a staging up that high, and the fall itself took interminably long time to watch.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
All the stuff that happens to us is usually not completely suprising when we look back at it but dont realize it till it is too late. I dont do much high work but still have not bought a harness for construction.
I hunt and wont climb my tree without my harness on.
We were demo'ing trusses on a 1st floor garage last month and we were at the last 2 trusses up against the main house. The one framer did not nail the bracing off well enough and both trusses decided to lay down while 3 of us were standing on the one.
When everything stopped moving, all three of us were still standing on the bottom chord and felt fine. The guys 9 feet below us (3 of them watching) were freaking out.
I think it is better to be in the situ than watching it from a stress perspective. (naturally not from injury perspective)
Fall would have hurt but looking back, we really could not have done it much differently from a safety perspective but the one guy who we counted on made a little mistake. Fortunately we dodged a bullet.
Now all the treestands for deer hunting you buy come with a safety harness. You read through the instructions and they tell you that you aren't going to be able get out by yourself, so you must carry a cell phone so you can call someone to rescue you if you fall!I thought about that a bit, and decided I'd rather take my chances hitting the ground, rather than relying on having a signal, getting it out of my pocket, etc.
fell without one last spring didn't feel to good ended up in hospital for four days and they gave me a new elbow. Still don't wear one but am much more cautious than before. I never used to think twice while on roofs now I do.
I've fallen with a rock-climbing harness. Only about a 5 foot fall though.
Nice snap to the groinal area.
The worst of it is that you end up singing soprano.
I've started wearing a harness for roof work now. I have two: one is a classic fall-arrest with the rip-out, shock-absorbing stitching.That's the one I'm wearing in post 114802.54 (inside a sweatshirt with a hole cut in the back, and without the shock-absorber).My preferred harness, though, is a tree-worker’s harness -- that’s the one she’s wearing in 114802.62.I rig that harness with a 7/8” dia. nylon rope going all the way over the house and down. That usually gives you a LOT of lateral travel, and safely, too.I tie in to the main rope with a Prusik ascender knot tied in a loop made from a 6’-8’ length of rope. Play around with the exact length -- you want the loop to be as long as possible while still allowing you to reach the knot easily to slide it up and down the main rope. I usually work with tension on it to keep the Prusik worked up properly. If I’m not going to keep tension on it, I tape the knot so that it’ll keep its shape.That rig is a fall PREVENTION rig. It would snap your neck on any significant fall, but if your feet slip while wearing it, you’ll land right where you were working if it’s rigged right.The older I get, the more I subscribe to the Terra Firma rule: The more Firmer, the less Terror.Aitchkay
My preferred harness, though, is a tree-worker’s harness
I have a full-body rigger's harness with seven connection points,
View Image
but my favorite for working is a New Tribe work saddle, designed for arborists by the best manufacturer of recreational tree-climbing harnesses.
View ImageView Image
http://www.newtribe.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=162
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/7/2009 5:34 pm ET by Riversong
I will pass on your kudos to my ex brother in law. ""...by the best manufacturer of recreational tree-climbing harnesses.""
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"...by the best manufacturer of recreational tree-climbing harnesses."
Actually, I think they're the ONLY manufacturer of recreational tree-climbing harnesses. But they do make a great saddle.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
He is a very talented and brilliant guy. Has several items that are one of a kind that he has invented and marketed.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Got a clue as to who made that arborist's rig my daughter's wearing? It's not all that clear in the pic, I know.Aitchkay
Edited 1/7/2009 9:26 pm ET by AitchKay
I've had a couple of close calls with a ladder. I learned to extend them higher than you think you need about 35 years ago, when the feet of the ladder I was climbing dug down into the sand. I could see that the ladder was slipping down off the bottom chord of a pole-barn truss. I was closer to the top than the bottom, and the feet dug in more and more whether I climbed up or down. I kept on going, and caught the bottom chord just as the ladder fell.The latest was a few years back, when I was installing bed mold between the frieze and soffit wrapping around the exterior of a bay. Steep site, scaffolding wouldn't work, so I used a series of extension ladders, including HO's. HO set up ladder #2 for me, but didn't fully engage the rung locks. I stepped from ladder #1 to ladder #2, and ladder #2 collapsed. I let go and turned away as the ladder crashed through the window, inches from my face, and I managed to backhand ladder #3. I hung there, one-handed, until the HO came out and set up another ladder for me. It was surprising that, what with the angle of the ladder and the weight of my tools, etc, I was unable to self-rescue from there, or even get my other hand onto a ladder rung!My 50 (plus)-year-old shoulder didn't like that too much-- I was sore for a couple of months, but no permanent damage.So, like I said before, the older I get, the more I subscribe to the Terra Firma rule:The more Firmer, the less Terror.Aitchkay
This guy fell in a safety harness that was too loose. He'll live, but will sing soprano at least until they put the family jewels back in the bag. The top part of the page gives the story, but the lower pictures are very graphic. You were warned:
http://bangedup.com/bu_posts/Loosefittingharness.pdf
Kowboy
Edited 1/7/2009 11:36 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 1/7/2009 11:38 pm ET by Kowboy
thats not right, i wonder if anybody snopesed that?
I haven't fallen into a harness but i have a friend who has. He was working in a shipyard in san diego when he took the fall into his harness. he was not discovered for over an hour and he kept himself from having problems by alternating massages on his thighs until he was rescued. there is a techinique that is taught now at better fall arrest programs, and it helps if you are conscious.
i have every reason to believe this individual, he was very young when this happened, early twenties, and very athletic, started at wide reciever for arizona sun devils.
one thing i havent heard mentioned in this thread yet is that when you do rescue someone from an extended period in a harness ( long enough for legs to "go to sleep" or become numb) it is important to keep them vertical after rescue to slowly reintroduce to the system blood that has been deprived of oxygen.
if you were to lay someone down after rescue it may be possible for the rapid flow of oxygen depleted blood to the brain. this could possibly be a problem so try to keep them on their feet for 15 minutes or so. this may require assistance, so if the situatiojn arises be prepared to communcate this.
talk about falls, check this out!
http://tinyurl.com/7aghom
You don't have to be at the top of a ladder to get hurt. I was on the FIRST step of a 6 ft step ladder working on some wall board on an 8 ft wall. For some reason. I went over backwards onto a concrete floor. Landed on Butt, shoulders & back of head, sorta like a parachute landing fall. ladder fell on top of me. Man, did I get a knot on the back of my head. ER Doc daughter said that ladder falls cause more deaths than you care to count.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
that's one of the reasons i love our alumapole setups.... like having sidewalks in the sky... we work the first three feet of our own roofing jobs from the alumapole
then we use roof staging every 5'Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You got it -- no better way. I'm used to the correct answer being, "Can do!" And in the current economic climate, there's all the more incentive to say that.But really, since I don't have anything like the full alumapole set-up, since I don't have all that many scaffold frames, it makes more sense to say, "Let me get back with you. I think I've got just the guy for you."Contract it out to a competent, well-equipped crew, don't half-kill yourself trying to do it all yourself, and things will go better.A "sidewalk in the sky" beats risking your life any day. And even though I know my ropes, and was hardly risking my life last time round, my old body still ended up surprisingly sore. I went to the chiropractor 3 times in the next month, just from all the twisting, contorting, and the unfamiliar rope-tug on my midriff all day.Now, d'ya think I can practice what I preach? Here, less than an hour's drive from Motown, there's an awful lot of incentive to say, "Hey, I can do that!"We'll see!Aitchkay
mike- I am with you--- I am much more interested in not falling AT ALL-- than surviving in a harness life for me got better when I started using 9o degree roof jacks-- with numerous reduntant lifts and doing the bottom edge from a pic no alumapole set up yet but If I can figure out how to efficently set up and take down a set on finished houses I may get a set up this year---in the meantime I am comfortable on werner pic on ladder jacks
stephen
The amount of knowledgeable people on this forum always amazes me!You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Pretty cool, isn't it?Aitchkay
we had 3' extensions welded to a pair of our alumapole brackets...
so we can set up on the roof slope Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Lost footing in a tree wearing one, only about a 10" drop 'cause I keep the rope taught in trees.
Grandpa never wore one, died from a ladder fall.
When I redid Mom's roof, no way she'd let anybody over 5 ft up without a harness.
no way she'd let anybody over 5 ft up without a harness.
So, you only hired midgets?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
So. . . what's it like?
I haven't taken a fall in a fall-arrest harness (wouldn't ever want to) but have taken plenty of whippers in climbing harnesses on dynamic rope (much nicer).
Fall arrest harnesses are designed to minimize whiplash of the neck, but that requires dorsal (between shoulder blade) attachment of the lanyard. Falling on such a system leaves you dangling where you can't grap the rope and makes it nearly impossible to self-rescue.
Also, numerous studies and many examples have demonstrated that hanging immobile in any kind of harness for as little as 5 or 10 minutes can result in loss of consciousness and death in as little as 20 minutes (harness hang syndrome, suspension trauma, or harness-induced pathology). For this reason OSHA requires that any time fall-arrrest equipment is used, a rescue plan needs to be in place.
Short of that, you can improve your "hang time" chances by keeping a short sling and a carabiner on hand so that you can rig a stirrup for your feet and keep tension on your leg muscles (provided you're conscious and able to do this) and remain in a sitting position. This will extend the time before lower extremity blood pooling robs your noggin of oxygen.
If you find yourself falling in harness, don't try to grab the rope, cable, or lanyard, as I've seen a worker cut his finger off when he went over an eave and had his hand wrapped around the retractor cable that he was hanging from, with his finger pinched between drip edge and cable.
Like with seatbelts, statistically you're much better off wearing fall arrest at height, but they can kill you as well.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/5/2009 6:24 pm ET by Riversong
"Also, numerous studies and many examples have demonstrated that hanging immobile in any kind of harness for as little as 5 or 10 minutes can result in loss of consciousness and death in as little as 20 minutes."The safety class I took quoted that figure for the old waist belt fall arrest system, not for "any kind of harness". . Do you have a source to cite for that?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
He's entirely correct with his last post Paul.
The safety class I took quoted that figure for the old waist belt fall arrest system, not for "any kind of harness". . Do you have a source to cite for that?
I have dozens of reliable sources, including the French researchers who did the first laboratory investigations of this phenomenon. It's widely recognized in the American and European rope access community (professional work on harness), and OSHA has issued strongly-worded warnings and guidelines.
I am, among many other things, a rope rescue instructor and a former wilderness medical instructor and wilderness search & rescue technician.
Just google any of the three names I cited for the syndrome and you'll come up with lots of good reading. It's also called "orthostatic intolerance".
Start here: http://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib032404.html
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/5/2009 6:40 pm ET by Riversong
I guess that means you had better have someone to help if you do use one>G<
I have taken 3 tumbles off roofs without harness, that is why I paid someone to reroof my house!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re. taking 3 tumbles off roofs.
Ok with number 1 but what happened for 2 and 3. Good you hired someone else. You finally got the message but how in the he** did you not get killed going over 3x.
been around on 4 falls1st one.... one of my helpers lost his balance on a 6 pitch.. so he turned around and ran off the roof... not a scratch2d one... my kitchen salesman was measuring on someone else's job.... it was cold so they had covered the basement opening with plywood and tar paper to keep the heat on the new slabhe stepped backwards and fell thru and spent 6 months in traction3d one.... i was helping a homeowner on his own house.... we were installing solar collectors on his staging.... 2x10's on roof jacks as soon as he stepped on one of the planks the roof jack pulled out and he went right off the roof... fell between two 5/8 rebars sticking up about 3'
he was lucky .... only broke his leg instead of impaling himselflast time was last summer... we were installing 2x10 floor joists 10' above a deck for a screened porch... i was the monkey in the middle, walking the joiststhey were nailing the joists on with 12d spikes thru the band joist.. i stepped on one and it disappeared.... he had 4 shiners... missed the whole dam thingluckily i fell between two joists, caught one under each arm, and only got multilple scratches and a wrenched shoulderthat was strike two for him.... strike three was about two weeks later...
but my shoulder still hurtsi've often heard about straight hammers being better for stabbing into the sheathing on your way downi still use a claw hammerMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/5/2009 9:38 pm ET by MikeSmith
that was strike two for him.... strike three was about two weeks later...
What was strike 3?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
fell between two 5/8 rebars sticking up about 3'
That's why it's required to cap all vertical rebar stubs.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
his job , not mine... and with that force the orange plastic caps would have killed his tooMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Re falls
I was only around on 1. Townhome
We had a guy from the company teaching our new framer how to build the partywalls (they were a UL system that went up thru a 6" slot between the units.
Picture a 120 foot long building with stair holes every 20 feet and a 6" slot next to the stair hole for the partywall. After a few days they were 6 divided units with open stair holes.
The only people who were in the building when the stairs were not set were the partywall guys and the company had been doing it the same way for years. Our framers came in and set the stairs right away when they started backing out each unit so there was little opportunity for someone to go thru the hole (little is the key word)
Well the guy training the framer walked right behind me into the hole. 2 stories into the basement. Crumpled up and did not move on his own accord for 3 days.
Ended up fine other than some short term memory loss but I had to be the one to call his dad and tell him his son just got airlifted out. It was a rough 3 days for me so I cant imagine what it was like for his family.
Ever since that day, if I saw an open stair hole without safety rails, the framer got his #### chewed out and no matter what he was doing, had to cover it securely
I be a klutz!
2 falls were one story, 1 2 story.
Learned a little on each. The most important lesson, stay off the roof !
Well, thats good that you kept on learning. I've read your posts and you impress me as someone who has a clue. When you wrote you fell off 3x I was a little miffed but I am sure i have done the same stuff over and over and expected different results for a while. lol
Frammer,My son did the 2 story thing. NO safety harnesses, no workers comp.Compound fracture of both wrists, left elbow, rt knee and compound fractures of rt foot. Also tore ligaments in his left knee. They worked hard to save the rt foot and now my son wishes they hadn't.He's talked to guys with similar injuries and they eventually fuse the bones to help with all of the pain. He also has talked to vets with prosthetics who get along well without pain.One thing I notice as I've aged is that my balance ain't what it used to be. I don't trust myself much on ladders, etc.Be careful out there guys.Pete
Pete, I am lucky, in that in all my falls, I have only one sprained ankle to show.
Young and dumb, that was most of my problem!
Thanks
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I can see how hanging in a harness would stress a person. Good thinking.
"For this reason OSHA requires that any time fall-arrrest equipment is used, a rescue plan needs to be in place."I just took an OSHA 10 course and don't remember seeing that statement, though be it one should be in place."Shawdow boxing the appoclipse and wandering the land"
Wier/Barlow
"For this reason OSHA requires that any time fall-arrrest equipment is used, a rescue plan needs to be in place."
I just took an OSHA 10 course and don't remember seeing that statement
Under 29 CFR 1926.502 (d) (Fall Protection Systems Criteria and Practices), OSHA requires that employers provide for "prompt rescue of employees in the event of a fall or shall assure that employees are able to rescue themselves." This should include identifying rescue procedures that address the potential for orthostatic intolerance and suspension trauma. Rescue procedures also should address how the rescued worker will be handled to avoid any post-rescue injuries. View ImageRescue procedures should include the following contingency based actions:
If self-rescue is impossible, or if rescue cannot be performed promptly, the worker should be trained to "pump" his/her legs frequently to activate the muscles and reduce the risk of venous pooling. Footholds can be used to alleviate pressure, delay symptoms, and provide support for "muscle pumping."
Continuous monitoring of the suspended worker for signs and symptoms of orthostatic intolerance and suspension trauma.
Ensuring that a worker receives standard trauma resuscitation1 once rescued. Some authorities recommend that the patient be transported with the upper body raised.
If the worker is unconscious, keeping the worker’s air passages open and obtain first aid.
Monitoring the worker after rescue, and ensuring that the worker is evaluated by a health-care professional. The worker should be hospitalized when appropriate. Possible delayed effects, such as kidney failure, which is not unusual in these cases, are difficult to assess on the scene.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
By the way, there are two types of fall-protection:
fall-arrest systems, designed to stop a fall with non-injurious force
fall-restraint systems, designed to prevent a fall
In the latter category are travel-limiting lanyards, guardrails, cages, cable and rope grabs.
Not falling is always better than falling and being caught.
Note that if a restraint system is used, there is no need to provide for prompt rescue under §1926.502(d)(20), since there would not be an arrested fall.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Taken several falls in climbing harnesses but never in an industrial situation.
One of my early falls taught me the need for dilignence and double checking everything even when you're 'sure' you had it set right. Was in the Tetons climbing some of the crags near the Grand Teton. A goup of us had been going at it for a few days so when it came my time to move on up I pulled up my shirt so the belayer could look at my perfectly tied know and harness strap doubled back (if not doubled back it'll slip out) and there it was, the harness strap hardly even even slid through the 1st time. 10 mintues later I was hanging in that harness after slipping off a ledge 300' above a pile of 3' square boulders.
Needless to say I double check every time now and that was more than 10 years ago.
If you want to know that that was like.., every time I knew I was slipping and then next I knew I was at the end of the rope. Happened too fast and the slack was short enough that my mind never had a chance to record it.
I fell but didn't make it to the edge of the rafters, just picked myself up shook it off and went on. Never fell off the edge of the roof and I don't climb much anymore. (old man)
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I fell but didn't make it to the edge of the rafters, just picked myself up shook it off and went on. Never fell off the edge of the roof and I don't climb much anymore.
That's why we carry long-handled straight-claw hammers - to slam through the roof sheathing as we're sliding towards the edge ;-)
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Another possible fall-arrest danger.
There was a story on the inside back cover of FHB years ago (I was a charter subsciber for the first five years of publication), I think they called the column "Great Moments in Building History" or some such.
Well an old-time carpenter told of how he got nervous working on a steep roof, so he tied a rope around his waist, tossed it over the ridge, and told his helper to tie it off to something secure.
Then when he ran out of roofing nails or something, he sent his helper to the lumber yard to get some more. Soon after he heard his PU truck fire up, the old timer found himself - for the first time in his life, he said - falling UP the roof.
Fortunately for him (and his helper) the younger guy remembered just as he was starting to drive away that he had tied the rope off to the rear bumper.
Rule for using a vehicle as an anchor: take out the keys!
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/5/2009 7:00 pm ET by Riversong
I saw a harness system that seemed to automatically retract the slack on the current "This Old House" project. It was never mentioned as far as I can remember. I heard a motor like sound whenever there was slack in the line, yet the line was easily pulled out. Seems like a good system.
It's a fall-arrest retracter, and they come in either cavle or nylon strap versions. They are designed to keep the slack to a minimum (if you don't mind a constant tug at your back).
But the guy I mentioned who fell off a roof and cut his finger to the bone was using one - improperly.
He was on an entry roof that sloped up into a vertical wall and the retractor was anchored to the wall right where it met the roof, rather than at shoulder level where it should have been. Then he compounded the error by working about 8 feet laterally from the anchor on an icy 8' shed roof. So when he slipped, he pendulumed on that 8' of cable (the retractor is designed to arrest as soon as a sudden load is applied) and he was hanging on to it dangling over the edge before the retractor caught his fall.
Now he's hanging on his weight with his finger caught between the cable and the roof edge. Fortunately, he started yelling and other workers on the ground were able to lift his weight long enough for someone to grab a step ladder and disconnect him from the system.
When I showed up with the ambulance, he was still screaming.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Well, I guess the moral of the story is falling is always bad. :-|
Harnesses are available with leg releases to buy some more time.
They are called a retractable. They have to be hooked directly to the harness, no lanyard used.They are good but you have to be aware of its lenght, they make for a nasty,scary,sometimes dangerous situation when they stop you suddenly.
Miller Fall Arrest Co. has a retractable lanyard which works as you mentioned
Hey- I met a guy that that actually happened to!
His wife got in the car and started driving. Dragged him up one side of the roof and down the other.
She only realized what was happening when he hit the ground.
But she must have loved him- she stopped!Amateurs talk strategy, Generals talk logistics.
I guess he was lucky she didn't decide to back up after that.
"Rule for using a vehicle as an anchor: take out the keys!"..And then clip the keys to a 'biner attached to the safety rope itself! I'm a big believer in "No-Thought Insurance."Aitchkay
I was told that lie when I started carpentry 20 some years ago. Trust me from experience you don't have time to slam your hammer the through sheathing. My thought on the hammer issue is to spud yourself between the eyes thus knocking yourself unconscious. If you fall your brain triggers a response of oh s*** and you usually stiffen up before you hit the ground followed by the breaking of lots of bones. So if you knock yourself unconscious you will be like a rag doll thus minimizing your injuries. It is like a drunk driver they usually never get hurt in a car crash. Though I don't recommend trying it.
Edited 1/6/2009 10:58 am ET by silvertip
Speaking from personal experience as someone who has tried that trick with a shingling hatchet I can attest to the truth of what you say. Very large old gambrel roof barn 30' +/-eaves, working on the 24/12 pitch when the toe board gave way. Spinning, rolling , sliding down to the eave line below which was the farms scrap pile.
I tried to bury the hatchet into the roof. Damn near took my left thumb off when I hit it, still carry the scar that wraps 1/2 way around the thumb. Managed to spread eagle myself in the last few feet and catch the last toe board flat footed and hot stopped. Spent weeks picking red cedar shingle slivers out of my torn up body and weeks wearing a splint and wraps on the left thumb.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I bent the handle on an Estwing 28 like a putter when I was going off a shed dormer..it works. It bent sideways as the claw was buried under 1/2" CDX, and the shaft went over the subfascia with me ( 140lbs at the time) hanging on fer dear life. Both hands.
I broke two of them in 3o yrs..one was a backhoe set a stabilzer on it..and another I was yanking up a door cut out on a bottom plate..the claws held, but the head parted the shaft.
That first one went back to the yard and replaced, and they let me keep it, so 2 buds, did the same..finally, they kept the broken hammer.
My roofing hammer now ( anything but shakes) is an estwing mason hammer ( 20 oz) with a notch cut in the end for nails..better than a tinners hammer IMO.
But then again, I just blatted my thumb all to hell using it to hit a tool that wasn't meant to be hit.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I sunk the rip claw of a 24 oz Vaughan through the CDX three stories up.Only reason I'm alive today. Despite others having different experiences, this can be done. Hammer was in the loop at my side, I was about 3/4 of the way to the ridge when I slipped, arrested at about halfway down the roof.I'm quick when I'm scared. <G>[edit for spelling]
Edited 1/6/2009 9:49 pm by Catskinner
Speaking from personal experience as someone who has tried that trick with a shingling hatchet I can attest to the truth of what you say.
I had the opposite experience.
As a college student in the early 1970s, I usually ran out of money by Christmas break and was pretty desperate to make a few bucks roofing. My father set me up with some shingling (on new houses) but unfortunately it started snowing as I was working alone. I kept going hoping to finish the section I was on.
Then it started really snowing and I decided to quit. When I stood up to leave, my feet went out from under me and I went sliding down the roof. I had heard the old story about putting the roofing hammer through the roof deck and I began slamming the deck as hard as I could. On about the third try the hammer went through the sheathing and I held tight with both hands, stopping the slide.
Crawling like a crab, I made it to a window on the side of the roof, climbed in and went home. I finished the roof a few days later--after shoveling off the snow. The hammer was an Estwing guaged roofing hammer, which I still have. Funny thing was that I didn't have time to rotate it so that the blade would go into the roof deck; instead, I slammed the head of the hammer through the plywood.
so my claw hammer would have worked as well ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No Mike, ya need the arm behind it to drive the head in the punch hole..youse be a skinnier than I.
But then again..adreniline is a powerful drug, thats how I beat Buck at arm wrasslening with my tooth pick arms..I was scared..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
"so my claw hammer would have worked as well ?"
Mike:
Yep, as long as you didn't hit where the truss/rafter was. What also helped was that they used some pretty thin and flimsy plywood in those days.
In my first summer roofing (1967), I fell off of four roofs. We were doing a Levitt development in Laurel, MD and one of the models was about an 8-in-12 pitch. Being young (17 yrs. old) and impatient, I had no time for scaffolding and "rode" the roof instead. Sometimes, the shingles were pretty sandy and I'd slide off. These were one story houses and I never got hurt. My two brothers and I often jumped off the roof, particularly if there was a mason's sand pile to land in.
My younger brother (16 yrs. old) fell off the same roof twice in the same day. The second time, he comically waved "bye-bye" as he slid down the roof. The plumber inside the house thought he was playing some sort of game. In terms of safety, things were different in those days.
In my mid-twenties, when I thought I was invincible, I used to jump from one roof to another, which scared the heck out of my co-workers. I kind of enjoyed getting them all riled up.
One time, however, I underestimated the distance. After running as fast as I could and leaping over the gap between the roofs, I splatted against the wall of the house, which, to my chagrin, was made of brick. My partners were horrified at the sight and ran to the edge of the roof to see if I was okay. When I grunted that I was alright, they burst into laughter. I was pretty bruised up and my "gap-jumping" days were over.
My sixth and final fall came when I was in my early forties. By this time, I had become careful and would not dream of jumping down 3-ft, much less off of a roof. In this case, I put a wishbone-shape bracket on my ladder to protect the gutter. Unfortunately, my foot got tangled up in the bracket as I stepped off the ladder with a bundle of shingles on my shoulder. As I stumbled, I had to let go of the bundle which dented the gutter. I grabbed the gutter on the way down and pulled it partially out. So much for protecting the gutter! But I had a pretty harmless 8-ft. fall, landing on my feet. I remember upon landing looking around and hoping no one saw this ridiculous moment. No one did and I went back to work--after removing the bracket from the ladder.
At 59, I still work on roofs occasionally. Needless to say, I'm a lot more careful these days.
Edited 1/6/2009 3:49 pm ET by Mudslinger
While cluelessly and carelessly nailing felt on a roof 32 years ago the paper I was standing on pulled loose and I began a high speed tarpaper tobbagon ride. With straightclaw hammer in hand I went down spread eagle on the roof and reached out for the only toeboard around which was above me. I doubt I was strong enough even then to put the claws through the deck but no doubt the claws on the toe board saved a tumble. Still use that hammer but with no illusions of poking it through a deck in a fall..
I was told that lie when I started carpentry 20 some years ago. Trust me from experience you don't have time to slam your hammer the through sheathing.
It's no "lie". The problem is you don't have enough experience falling. If you were a rock climber and had fallen a hundred times on a rope, you would no longer be in that state of fear which closes off perception and prevents conscious response.
I've used my hammer to arrest a fall. And, because I've fallen on rope many dozens of times, I can remain aware and in control as it occurs.
It's like the difference between a typical driver who starts fishtailing on a slippery road and a race car driver who does it all the time.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Your saying that experience falling with safety ropes on for allows one to think more clearly when falling without a rope on? Interesting conclusion. Not one I would support and I have fallen under both circumstances. I would think that the more one became accustomed to having a rope save them the longer the mind would take to process the fact the non-existent rope isn't going to . Never have fallen hundreds of times however since I learned to walk..
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Actually, Mr. Riversong is correct.I've got more time going into places that people are dying to get out of than I will care to recount. Out of that, I will say that familiarity does breed a certain ability to evaluate your circumstances quite thoughtfully. You'd be amazed at how slowly you experience an event that looks really fast to everyone else.
I've had that happen both ways - sometimes where it all goes into slo-mo, and others where it was over before I knew it was happening.I do think experience, training, and luck all have some input, but the way adrenaline causes reactions and changes our perceptions of events is strange and unpredictable. it would not6 surprise me if a guy who has stabbed his claw to prevent a fall one time never got a chance to do so the next time.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not proud of this one! we were setting the truses and gables ten foot walls on my present shop in 97. We had everthing braced as summer storms are frequent. I was inside on a ladder with tip at the top plate. The horse flies that year were brutal. As we lifted the gable inplace my friends on the outside on scaffolds watch as after i slide the gable in place I swatted at a horse fly trying to eat my face. the ladder was on a bit of saw dust and the ladder just started sliding away. Below was a door with rebar lying tied. I push as hard from the wall and managed to fall inside the floor area. But I smacked my right eye on the rung of the ladder and glasses bent not broke. My eye was "compressed" and couldn't see for a week. I had perfect parellel brusies from hips to shoulders from the edges of the ladder. A cracked right rib sore wrists gash on forehead.My friends watching this said it lasted about a minute and I agreed. I Guess it said ###En horseflies on the way down.
Later that day my neighbour who was helping, stopped his wife from coming over and eating my a#s out, cause the bobcat dude nicked a retaining wall. He told her "not much point going over now he's already taken a beating" than explained what happened. She saw me a couple days later and her jaw dropped. I just muttered I'LL fix the wall. nothing was ever mentioned about the wall again.
I now carry a can of fly be gone and I always try to get the first shot at the flies. and have resorted to setting a small smudge fire to keep them at bay.
Now wasps don't get me started
Your saying that experience falling with safety ropes on for allows one to think more clearly when falling without a rope on?
The experience of falling is much the same until the rope stops you. If you rock climb with the notion that the rope is going to save you, then you'll almost certainly end up hurt because you won't take charge of your descent - fending off obstacles, aiming for a safe landing, making sure you don't get flipped upside down...
The responses on this thread have already described the two experiences of falling:
not knowing what happened until you hit the ground
everything moving in slow motion with lots of time to think
The time I totalled my van into a car that went through a red light and crossed my path when I was going 50 mph on a rural highway, it all happened in a split second. But I remember calmly thinking "I'm going to total my van". And I braced myself against the steering wheel and held on for the impact.
Just like that race car driver I spoke of, when I first got my license I would go to the high school parking lot on winter weekends when it was empty and pull 360s in my dad's car until I was comfortable pulling out of any skid. Ever since, when I've accidently gone into a skid, I've been able to calmly countersteer and pull myself out.
There's nothing like practice to get one to the point of being able to remain calm and controlled in an emergency.
I would think that the more one became accustomed to having a rope save them the longer the mind would take to process the fact the non-existent rope isn't going to .
Only if you let yourself become complacent on rope, which is the greatest danger and one I've preached and taught and had articles published about. With or without a rope, it's first and foremost our own responsibility to protect ourselves. The rope is just a form of insurance which you may have to cash in on.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I am well acquainted with the slow motion sense of time passing. I had 20' of 24/12 pitch roof to recover and try to save myself and the whole event was over in a seconds on a clock yet took minutes to my inner sense of time and have been though enough other situations to know that sense. When I posted was thinking more along the lines of habitual body memory. Ever drive a new car that has different door handle or ignition key locations?
I find myself reaching for the accustomed location out of long term "body" memory. I would have thought that becoming accustomed to having a rope stop your fall repeatedly would have the same unintended consequence in "body " memory.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
My recommendation is that if you do use one that you fasten it so that you hit the end of it's limitation before hitting the ground. A friend of mine witnessed some nitwits trying one out but if he had fallen he would have hit the ground before he took up the slack. We have all kinds of old war stories that we share periodically.
My recommendation is that if you do use one that you fasten it so that you hit the end of it's limitation before hitting the ground.
That's not a recommendation - it's an OSHA requirement:
1915.159(b)(7)
Personal fall arrest systems shall be rigged such that an employee can neither free fall more than 6 feet (1.8 m) nor contact any lower level.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
>>My recommendation is that if you do use one that you fasten it so that you hit the end of it's limitation before hitting the ground. That's not a recommendation - it's an OSHA requirement:
And a lot of people forget that the lanyard will deploy another 18"-24" so that has to be figured in the equation.Just had a class last month where they dropped a 240 lb weight without a shock absorber and it was 5200lb of force. With a shock absorber it was only 1800lb. I had always prefered the yo-yo before for mobility but not anymore.Where there's a will, there are 500 relatives
We had to use a safety harness when we were installing data lines inside a building.
Nobody knew how far you would fall before the retractable device would stop you.
I was elected the test dummy. I was hooked to a beam and stood on the edge of
a table and pushed off. It stopped me after falling less than 2 feet. There was no
problems with the harness but you need someone to get you down at this point.
Only know about the "without" version.
Left foot hurts every step every day.
Joe H
I am a lines man for a cable company. Never had a fall arrest deployment but have had several training courses and have been lifted to give a feeling of what the "hang time" would be like. even a gentle lift is very uncomfortable. three pieces of advise
1) take a course on fall arrest systems. they explain some pretty useful aspects of the system and the user responsibilities
2) make sure your harness is properly adjusted every time you put it on. a loose groin strap is going to cause you a world of hurt even in a short fall.
3) if you work alone alot invest in a system that snaps on to the harness that is basically a sling system that you use if you are hanging. one hooks on to each hip and the two parts deploy manually to form a sling that will support your weight on your feet rather than your groin. Let me know if you need a brand name.
Good advice. I almost never work in harness or at heights alone; our outfit has the good sense to try and avoid that. I once got a concussion from falling 9 feet, and remember wandering around randomly before trying to seek help, all by myself.In those cases when I am alone, I work extra hard on not falling, if you catch my drift. I was rolling out some tarpaper alone and the homeowner advised me not to fall. I replied:"Rule #1, actually, is don't fall. Rule #2 is: don't fall! Rule #3 is get something done."I'm pretty divided on the idea of using a harness while alone, for rescue reasons. The rope increases the annoyance factor, which I do believe increases the odds of having an accident at all. Maybe I'd get used to it if I were harnessed every day, but I spend maybe 5% of my working time harnessed.
"The rope increases the annoyance factor, which I do believe increases the odds of having an accident at all."That is a natural thought that most of us have, I think.but it is wrong. Once you get used to safety equipment of any kind, you find yourself freed up. Your mind does not have to spend half its energy on preventing falls and you suddenly have an extra hand - that one that you didn't realize was constantly clinging to something for balance or fall protection - so you end up getting more done and are more relaxed doing it so you do a better job safer.At least that is my experience, having done it all both ways.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Was trained and wore harness while doing bridge work. Never took a fall but figured the harness stopping me would be a tad uncomfortable :-0
In 1975 I was up about 30 feet (working alone - a half mile from civilization in the woods). I had a Bosuns (sp) swing belt on with the line tied off to a tree on the ground. Broke through the structure I was on (geodesic dome strut).
Fortunately I grabbed on to another strut on the way down. Hung around at the end of my arm for a bit, then started lowering myself to the floor. At the end of the rope, I was still 6 feet off the darn floor and then had to undo the buckle to drop the rest of the way.
I've got a roof to do this spring and I'm still thinking of hiring it out!
-Paul
When I took a climbing course we learned how to use a Prusik knot to climb a rope when all else fails. If you have two short loops for foot support after a fall, you should be able to use them for this as well.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prusik_knot
If you are using the harness correctly, you can't fall more than a foot. You are supposed to keep the connection to the rope short, as you go. There shouldn't be any chance of falling more than a few inches. If you were to drop any distance, it could break your back. Many that use harnesses haven't been trained. Using them in the wrong situation or not keeping them adjusted could cause severe injury.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
If you were to drop any distance, it could break your back.
Fall arrest harnesses are required by OSHA to limit the impact force on the body to 8kN (1800 lbs force) and are specifically designed to minimize chance of injury. The neck is much more at risk than the back due to whiplash, which is why a rear or above-the-head attachment is mandated.
The limit of survivability (LOS) in a fall arrest is 12kN (2650 lbs force) and dynamic rock climbing ropes are designed to limit fall forces to 9 kN (2000 lbs force), which is more than work-site fall arrest systems allow.
It's not the fall arrest system that's going to hurt you but the object you hit before it catches you.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I know what it's like to hang from one...
AitchKay
strong little fella !Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Taught him how to pick up girls, too.Aitchkay
I'm used to "hangin' out" too.
Edited 1/6/2009 8:00 pm ET by Riversong
Excellent, Dude!AitchKay
Anyone try a bungee?
I was wondering... when's the last time you paid your gravity bill?Aitchkay
when's the last time you paid your gravity bill?
If you mean when was the last time I took a fall...
I gave up falling. Can't afford it.
But when I was supervising a Mutual Self-Help Building program, training and overseeing a group of nine young families building nine houses for each other in one year, I was the only one who ever took a spill.
One time, I had secured a site-built 2x4 ladder onto the second floor deck with a couple of duplex nails so everyone could go up and down safely. But, unbeknownst to me, someone had un-nailed it, moved it, and then put it back without securing it again. So when I climbed it, it slipped just as I was at the top and went out from under me. I landed unharmed on my feet, but my brand new down vest (first down garment I ever owned) snagged a nail and ripped.
The other time, we were laying subfloor on the second deck, and there were several full and half sheets of plywood scattered on the joists. As I was trying to keep an eye on what the crew was doing, I stepped back onto a half sheet whose edge was not quite on a joist. The sheet flipped up, hit me in the butt, and the sheet and I went down between 16" oc joists without touching. I once again landed on my feet, to the suprised looks of the folks working below - and immediately said "There's a good example of what not to do on a building site".
For the rest of the year, the group would joke about Robert "going down on a half sheet".
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
So are you telling us that's you rappeling down a windmill? What's the story behind that picture? Having some fun or were you up there working on it?
So are you telling us that's you rappeling down a windmill? What's the story behind that picture? Having some fun or were you up there working on it?
That's one of the 11 commercial wind turbines in Searsburg VT, near where I used to live. When it was built in 1997, it was the largest wind facility in the eastern US.
Green Mountain Power is required to do an annual rescue training, so as a local firefighter and rope rescue instructor I talked my way into joining them. It was quite a view from the top of the 132' towers, and a fun rappel to the ground.
It's funny isn't it? There is nothing builders seem to like more than discussing experiences that have almost killed them.
I've only came off a roof once and landed right in a pond. Nice soft landing but so cold I couldn't reply to the crew on the roof calling to see whether I was all right.
I wish houses had fall protection anchors permanently situated on roofs and gable ends - much as higher buildings do for window washers.
I fell on one when running a highlift, back in my twenties. The pallet I was using broke, and I went in between the forks.
Hurt like hell, and bruised me up pretty well, but I'm guessing it was a lot less painful overall, than hitting the concrete deck 28-feet below.