So: sidewinders are lighter, have the wide part of the base on the work, and don’t fill your pouch with sawdust. Sure, I’m not a framer, but I never find myself saying “Damn, I wish my saw had more torque to cut this wood.”
Ok, since I don’t have much cred as a rough carpenter, I’ll add that our framing subs use only sidewinders.
I’ve yet to hear a good argument for the worm drives. So ‘splain it to me well!
Replies
Its a Ford v Chevy thing.
To me it's more like a compact pickup vs. full-size pickup thing, but then I could never stand using sidewinders. I tried, I really did, I had a sidewinder when I started out in Michigan, but as soon as I moved west I got my hands on a worm drive and never touched a sidewinder again. The power, the left blade, the rear hand position, what's not to like.
The weight is the only thing that really stops it from catching on everywhere. I like to use worm drives because of the blade being on the left. I found out that they now make sidewinders with the blade on the left as well, but I can't afford to buy another saw right now.
"The power, the left blade, the rear hand position, what's not to like?"
That's easy: the left blade and the rear hand position and the extra weight that is needed to produce the power.
This is akin to a football game. In football, you have big hulking linesmen and have fast speedy running backs. If you could only choose one, which would you take?
Me? I'd take 11 fast speedy running backs. Yes, occasionally, I'd wish I had those big hulking linesmen but I wouldn't fret because when I failed to score on that rare occasion, I'd only win the game 185 to nothing...instead of 192 to nothing.
But, I concede that occasionally a heavy hulking, rear handed, left blade saw would be perfect.
This is akin to a football game. In football, you have big hulking linesmen and have fast speedy running backs. If you could only choose one, which would you take?
C'mon blue.....at least compare apples to apples......
Lean, quick running back, or a stout powerful one?
Gimme the guy with the 36" thighs over the one who needs the linesmen to clear him a path anyday.
Sidewinders are great for cutting 1X fascia. And if that's all you cut, then that's all you need.
A wormdrive will handle anything you throw at it though.
I own the Bosch and the Skil Mag.....couldn't GIVE me a sidewinder.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I only use worm drives. They're great for walking the joist and cutting of the excess. The saw just hangs down in line with the cut.
I like the old argument, "wormdrives are heavy". Good god man, we are framing, everything is heavy :-)http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
Good god man, we are framing, everything is heavy :-)
LOL...yeah....I never understood that either.
I also find a wormdrive better balanced than a sidewinder, which negates the extra weight.
Just like a properly balanced 24oz. hammer doesn't feel as heavy as a poorly balanced 20 oz.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I broke in on sidewinders. PC's and Milwaukee's Switched to worm drives when I hit the west coast and owned or operated every brand on the market I think. Last two I bought have been Dewalts, now I pick up a standard confirmation worm drive and man does it feel heavy and awkward!! Just in what you get accustomed to having as the extension of the hand I think. I still like the "cutting off the floor" method of of operation though.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I still like the "cutting off the floor" method of of operation though.
Old habits die hard.
Used to work for a guy like that.
On my second or third job with him, I couldn't take it anymore and built a set of sawhorses.
He worked off of them for the remainder of the job, thanking me everyday for making them.
Next job we start....he's back to working off the floor again.
The half hour it may have taken him to slap a pair of horses together just wasn't worth it in his eyes.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Take a hint. You did such a good job on the first ones, he was waiting for you to do it. =)
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/15/2009 12:12 pm by Ted W.
LOL....true enough.....but at the same time, this guy was notorious for not taking the extra few minutes to prep, that could save hours worth of labor.
When tiling, he wouldn't set up a wet saw....he'd run the field and allow someone else to go back and handle "the few cuts" afterwards.
Never set up a compressor, hoses and nail guns for roofing.....and again....would only run the field and leave cuts for others, later.
Standing walls.....wouldn't layout interior partitions. We'd go back and cut them in later.
He was "the master" at doing those things that would appear to the homeowner that alot got done in a short amount of time.
In reality.....we would spend twice as long tieing up the loose ends that would have been easier and faster to incorporate had we done them as we went along.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Half hour for a set of horses?! It must be the wormdrive slowing ya down.
I wouldn't work a minute on any framing job without a set of horses. Where would I set the plans to study them?
And I don't relish the idea of bending over and cutting off my foot. Thats just crazy talk LOL. I don't mind cutting off my foot...I have a spare but the bending over scares me.
I'm sure each culture creates their own methods of dealing with the tools attached to their hands. I can't envision doing the things I do with my open faced sidewinder with a worm. It's just no possible. And I suppose it works that way in reverse for those that are used to the worm.
I did try a worm drive once. That was enough for me. I also tried a blade left once. I couldn't get the saw through the 2x4 LOL. That was enough for me.
I hate heavy when light works!>G<
When you get in a hurry and are doing things with the saw most people don't do it handles better because you hand is behind the blade more.
You can push it hard and it will go straight and not bog down.
Some framers do things with saws most people would never dream of doing.
Will Rogers
For framing I like the worm drive. Being able to get behind the blade gives me a better sense of control. When I used to frame I could support the edge of a board with my foot and make my cut. Things like that would be hard to do with a side winder.
However, now that I work in a shop mostly I would have a hard time parting with our Festool plunge sidewinder and straightedge.
".....I could support the board with my foot and make my cut. Things like that would be hard to do with a sidewinder"
I learned that method from a book by Larry Haun, it became my preferred way.....with a sidewinder (though I prefer a blade left) ......guess I didn't know any better
You know me, I'm not a pro. I started out in the midwest using only sidewinders.
I managed to jam up the trigger on my sidewinder (You do need to turn a saw off after you turn it on... right?), I read on FHB about wormdrives, and decided to take the plunge and buy a REALLY GOOD SAW.
I bought the Rigid wormdrive based on it's review in FHB. Man, that thing weighed a TON compared to all the other saws I've used before. BUT... you never notice the weight while you are using it! In fact, the mass - combined with its longer liner arangement (vs offset box of a sidewinder) help you make cuts straighter and more stably.
Here is what that means in actual terms: With the sidewinder, I had to snap a line, then set up the shooter board to make the cut. With the worm drive, I snap the line them make the cut. A worm drive cuts straighter for me.
That extra torque also came in handy when I was cutting through 3 layers of roofing!
PS - I can't use a hammer to save my life, but I have no fear of making a straight cut overhead one handed with that saw. It just feels right in the hand while it's cutting.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Edited 4/14/2009 2:22 am by xxPaulCPxx
Biff
Power and they cut straighter since it's not trying to twist on you all of the time.. your arm and the force required to push them is all in a straight line compared to the offset of the sidewinder.. for what it's worth I have both.. Weight wise The weight can be used to a good advantage if you always cut downhill (prop up the wood with your foot and cut downward)
However the mag plate and other features of the newer Skil saws reduces weight somewhat..
Edited 4/14/2009 3:52 am ET by frenchy
Lot's of comment about the worm drive blade being on the left and the handle being more inline with how you push it, but Milwaukee, PC and most cordless sidewinders now have those features as well. I have 2 PC sidewinders and a Mag 77 worm drive. The PCs both have the blade on the left and the handle toward the back, inline with the cut. I use the PC sidewinder most, but when I need extra torque I grab the worm drive.
Another thing about the PC sidewinder is the plate (foot? sole? bed?) is wider and cast metal, while the Mag 77 is narrower and stamped. The stamped metal is far more likely to get bent when it drops on a corner, thus making for a wobbly cut. But the cast plate doesn't bend out of shape, thus better for precission cutting. There's nothing like thinking you have the angle set at, say, 22.5 deg. only to find the cut is closer to 20 or 25 deg. With the cast metal plate of the PC sidewinder, that's never an issue.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
Meet me at House & Builder!
Worm drive saws last much longer
Worm drive saws last much longer>>>>>>>>>>>>.
If you remember the oil!>G<
Longer than what?
One of my sidewinders is an old P-C my dad bought in the 50s. It still works just fine.
My understanding is the worm drive will last longer because it runs at a lower RPM
I can't believe how many are still yammering about the blade on the left and the handle in back, must still be living in the dark ages.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Not the dark ages, time to use a real saw! Lol
I'll add that our framing subs use only sidewinders.>>>>>>>>>>>
This old framer prefers them. I never understood why people like to pick up them heavy old worm drives.
What's to explain--after the worms are ready for market, you round 'em up and your drovers drive 'em to the rail head. It's heck when they stampede though!
Here's another analogy. A sidewinder is like a unicyle. You control it from way up high, and it won't do everything, but because your hand is above the blade you control the saw.
A worm drive is like a Harley. Heavy and powerful, much more comfortable just going in a straight line than in doing anything finicky.
I have a few of each type of saw, and usually grab the Harley. I mean wormdrive ;-)
Use whatever is comfortable for you. Both types cut wood just fine.
I've been doing this for over 30 years now, and have only used a wormdrive a few times. But I'll match my results with a sidewinder to just about anyone.
Maybe one of the reasons I'm not keen on worms is that the one we had when I started was an OLD Skil 8-1/4". It was a heavy beast.
It's one of the few tools I've had stolen that I don't miss.
OLD Skil 8-1/4". It was a heavy beast >>>>>>>>>>>.
That hasn't changed!!!!!
Even when I was young and strong, I hated that saw.
Partly because I've used sidewinders since I was about 10 YO or so, I think.
We only dragged that thing out when we needed the depth of cut it could provide.
It is the gear ratio that give power verses speed.
Jeez and here I saw the title and all I could think of is dirt goes in the front end stuff comes out the back end ...worm goes forward. Best explanation I had of worm drive.
because of the worm drive they won.t kick as bad when you hit a hard knot. on the west coast all the pro's use skill 77's . one contractor had a makita worm drive and It didn't feel right. someone said the motor ran in the oposite direction as the skill. with a skill 77 you instinstively brace your wrist when you pull the trigger. the makita twisted the oposite way.
What, you didn't catch enough heat with the truck washing thread, so now you want to start again?
Personally, I prefer blade left sidewinders (I'm right handed) but they do tend to make you eat more sawdust (the bags get full also)
Bring it.
Biff I always get a kick out of the emotions that this topic always seems to bring up. It's like the Ford/Chevy argument on meth.
I like a worm drive. Period. I just like them better than sidewinders. Not because it's more powerful or more durable (which they are, without a doubt) but simply because it's more comfortable for me. My guys all like sidewinders. I'm the only one. But I kinda like it that way because nobody ever steals my saw. I really think all that matters is that you use the saw that's most comfortable for you... and at the end of the day when everyone gets real honest with themselves, I'd have to imagine that that's the only real reason any of us use whichever saw it is that we use.
But there's no doubt that, in general, the current crop of worm drive (or inline) saws do last longer than the current crop of sidewinders. I know this because I buy the saws for my company and we got through more than our fair share of them.
And while worm drives are also clearly more powerful, I've yet to have one of my guys come running up to me to borrow my saw because his side winder couldn't finish whatever cut it was he was trying to make. Don't think I'll hold my breath on that one either. The only time I think the power issue really comes into play is when cutting compound miters for rafters in nasty stock or LVL's. When the sidewinder would probably kick out of the cut, you can usually get a wormdrive to plow through. But really, that's minor if you ask me.
And to be fair.... I wouldn't show up at a job without a sidewinder in my truck. There's just some cuts I don't want to be making with a wormdrive. Overhead "surgery" type cuts come to mind.
I'm with you on your post. Whatever works.
I've got the "new" Milwaukee that I'm testing for JLC and that thing is big. It is about 2" longer than the Ridgid. But I kind of like it.http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
The last thing that I'd want is a saw that lasted longer than my sidewinder. The new saws with cast bases are what I really want. But my 1980 Milwaukee refuses to quit, and the last thing I'd want is some wormdrive that's going to outlive it.I'll still walk 50 yds to my truck through the drizzle to get that Milwaukee, rather than use my partner's clumsy wormdrive.And I don't get all of the theoretical "more powerful" wormdrive talk when I've cut an entire timber frame with sidewinders, complete with beveling the hips -- angled rip cuts through hardwood being some of the most taxing cuts you could possibly make with a circular saw.
AitchKay
I own Both a worm drive and a sidewinder. (Skil 77 & Mikita) both have their place.. I did the vast majority of the work on my timberframe with the Skil but there were times the Mikita comes into use..
Oh, The big 16 inch Mikita was also used so maybe I should say that I have a Skil 77, 2 Mikitas and a small Dewalt battery powered.
Please note that the big Mikita is pushed from the back like a wormdrive.. (even though it's a sidewinder)
I wonder, is there such thing as a "big" worm drive?
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/15/2009 3:59 pm by Ted W.
Skil made a 10" worm drive many years ago.
Yeah.....but too many FHB readers/Lowes patrons complained it was "too heavy".
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Skil actually made a 12" at one point too. I've been trying to score one for years now. Last fall I missed one on Craig's List by about 5 minutes.View Image
And I don't think Big Foot is a homemade video any more?<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Can't help myself...
""Explain worm drives to me""
Well try this link, best I could find.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gear-ratio4.htm
Edited 4/15/2009 6:25 pm by dovetail97128
I have a couple of each....some guys prefer each for different reasons. I couldn't care less , i use both. I find it funny when people say a work drive cuts straighter ?? They both have blades and i can cut the same with either.
Hey, I can use either too, but let's face it the worm track better.
Sure, we can drive a Ford and keep out of the ditch but that doesn't mean it holds a line.