Exposing old brick without losing heat?
Howdy folks;
I’ve gotten some good help from many of you already, so I figured I would annoy you with some more questions =) . The building is an all-brick church from 1895. We’re turning it into a single family residence of about 3000+ sq ft. Right now the focus is on insulation for the ceiling and walls of the sanctuary, and we’ve settled on framing in from the brick and spraying about 3″ of icynene on the walls, and 5″ on the ceiling (the back side of the original roof sheathing). The sanctuary will be about a 30 foot to the peak, and be roughly 30×48 in area. We’re located in central Illinois, and I’m paying the premium for icynene to make heating and cooling the place manageable. So far so good.
The problem is the look of the interior. We’ll be covering over a lot of interesting and attractive red brick. My wife is really sad at losing the look entirely, and I’m trying to come up with a compromise that keeps me from basically wasting the benefits of the icynene. So far all I can think of is:
1) use radiant heat in the floor to keep the heat low
(versus forced air).
2) only expose partial areas of brick, and only do it midway up the wall (over 8ft below 20ft) so heat can remain trapped up higher.
3) Seal off any place air penetrates the brick too easily.
There aren’t too many interior brick walls – the bell-tower has one and there’s a chimney. Those would be two places we could expose with a bit more weather resistance. Other than that though, Any advice on how to expose brick without giving up a well sealed house?
banned from the nail gun
Replies
Bump.
With solid brick walls like that, there's not really any way around covering them up. And brick is not a great insulator. Radiant heat should be more comfortable at a lower air temperature than forced air heat, so your heat loss would be lower. Insulating the ceiling is very important, as is sealing up air leaks in the structure. But still, you'd be living in a partially uninsulated house, and if you insulate some walls but not others, I think you'd get drafty areas in your house.
I live in a mostly uninsulated house right now, and I've done all I can to minimize air leakage. I've also insulated all the rooms I've done major work on, and they are definitely more comfortable in the winter and summer.
zak
"so it goes"
hey zak, thanks for the bump;
I keep going back and forth, and everyone has a different opinion. Everyone agrees that brick's a bad insulator, but I get a lot of opinions of just how bad it will be in day-to-day life. I guess the good news is leaving the brick exposed it relatively cheap to try out. So the most attractive finish (at least to me and the wife) is also the one requiring the least effort. If need be we can always frame out and spray the stud bays.We're dead set on putting a lot of money into the ceiling insulation. I don't think we'll regret that. But I've told my wife we need to be careful about which walls and how much of the walls we expose.I've also learned about a slower-forming variety of icynene that you can literally pour into a cavity... I'm wondering if there would be a way to drill a series of small holes into the mortar over an exposed area of brick and inject the wall with icynene. It wouldn't be nearly as good as a "real" insulated wall, but it would be significantly better than nothing... I think. =)What climate are you living in without insulation?------------------------
banned from the nail gun
"I'm wondering if there would be a way to drill a series of small holes into the mortar over an exposed area of brick and inject the wall with icynene. It wouldn't be nearly as good as a "real" insulated wall, but it would be significantly better than nothing... I think. =)"
That sounds like a risky experiment. Also not reversible.
I liked your idea of sealing the lid really well, then see about the walls later. If you get the convective losses taken care of, the thick brick walls may perform better than you think.
I live in Florida with non-insulated walls now for 5 years but lived inOhio with the same situation, un-insulated massive exterior wallsfor 40 years before.
Insulate the ceilings period. Has excellent pay back. Caulk around all windows and penetrations. (DO NOT caulk any weep holes in the outside walls or below the windows.)
Enjoy the exposed brick.
DO NOT, (yes I am shouting), put any insulation into the brick walls as this will create a vapor barrier whcih may force water vapor into your home.
Suggestion: visit Building Science.com for discussions of vapor barriers, drainage planes, and how thermal mass benefits your heating/cooling bills.
Enjoy!
All I ever Needed to Know I learned in Kindergarten- Robt. Fulghum
I'm living in eastern washington sans insulation. Probably not all that different in temperature range from where you are, just less humidity. I do have the advantage of the cheapest electricity in the nation though, at around 2.5 cents/kwh. If electricity was more expensive I would have been forced to blow in some insulation sooner.
I don't think it will be unbearable to live with exposed brick and no insulation, and if you keep your future options open, you'll be ok.
By the way, will your nail gun privelages be reinstated once you actually buy one?zak
"so it goes"
Heh... maybe I'll have to change my sig when I actually do get the gun...Here's a general theory question:
It's really important to insulate the ceiling because heat rises.
However, doesn't the heat just get trapped under the ceiling and leak out your walls just as eaily if they're not insulated? The heat want to go up, it runs into the ceiling, so it just rolls around the edges (through the walls) and keeps on going up.Or is heat a lot less prone to going sideways than up? Anyhow, I can probably get my wife on board to do just the ceiling along with radiant heat in the floor. We can tackle walls as the need arises...------------------------
banned from the nail gun
hot air rises
heat goes from hot to cold regardless of the direction
try to get rid of any unintended air leaks.
Like Paul says, hot air rises, heat radiates equally fast in all directions. But heat loss is greater where delta-t is greater, that is, the difference in temperature between surfaces. So when you have all that hot air up at the top of the room, it will tend to lose heat faster than the cooler air at the bottom of the room, if the walls and ceiling are all the same temperature. Radiant floor heat minimizes the thermal gradient of the air, although some convection is unavoidable.zak
"so it goes"
This is all really interesting info. I think I'll try and get that vent pulled out and get a read on how thick the wall truly is. I know it gets thinner up in the attic (well, where the attic used to be before we exposed it), so the majority of the structure is the "full" thickness (whatever *that* is).Regardless, I'm hearing some sage advice from you guys. I think I'll focus on the ceiling insulation and use radiant floor heat. Do the walls later, as needed. Ooh.. one question - do they make radiant panels that I could wall mount without risking a singed guest? As for exposing the brick - what sort of sealant can I apply to prevent the crumbling and dust on the inside? I've heard of marine sealers, shellacs...------------------------
banned from the nail gun
I don't know the construction of your brick walls... but i'm going to guess at least 3 courses deep maybe 4 or 5...
these walls aren't bad for heat loss or for cooling... there is very little thermal bridging in your brick walls... there is an air gap between courses and your bond course (about every 7th course will never fall against (line up) with another bond course... so you should have at least 2 air gaps between courses (3 course wall) maybe as many as 4... these gaps are there for a reason... thermal bridging, and mostly moisture control... if water gets past the outer course of bricks it should find it's way back out before it ever gets to the inside... plus your inner courses are usually not the same brick as the outer courses... they will be less fired and not need the wear properties of the outer ones plus they were cheaper and above all they suck up water big time... you can hose down an old brick wall and wait minutes before any water will ever make it to the ground...
you never want to seal or paint these old bricks.... inside maybe... outside never they need air and painting is the worse thing you can do
I'd leave as many as you like and don't think you'll have cold walls if anything you might have thermal mass
p
Hey pony;
Your post had some really interesting info. I'd like to figure out precisely what sort of air-gaps we have and how our brick was laid. I'm not sure short of communing with the dead builders (circa 1895) how I can figure that out. I may have mentioned I put in a dryer vent, but when I was making the hole in the bricks didn't notice any significant gaps.I like the thermal mass point you make. The walls should be excellent at absorbing the radiant heat. My post to pony also mentions trying to impregnate the brick walls with icynene, if only to improve their R value slightly. If I could do that, it shouldn't effect the outer brick's breathing, but I'm no expert. I think a lot would depend on how they actually ran my brick.Anyone have X-ray vision? Any devices out there that can see into the walls?------------------------
banned from the nail gun
I don't know the brick type but given the date of the building you have lime puddy mortar... this stuff is self healing if you'll notice you have no expansion joints in your brickwork... this is because the lime mortar is only about 250psi and it moves...and adjusts itself... and as i said for small cracks it'll self heal...
if your walls at the base are about 12" thick you have 3 course walls and 2 air gaps... if you look at your bond courses (where you only see the small end of the brick) they should be every 5th to 7th course from a known point from inside & outside you'll see they do not line up (in to out) unless you have a 5 course wall which isn't unheard of at the bottom of a tall wall... how long of a pipe did it take to get the dryer vent from inside to out? this should give you a clue... by the time you get to the roof line chances are the wall is thinner (fewer courses than at it's base)
I've done alot of old buildings and always left as much brick showing as i could...
p