Extending oven circuit w/ splice?
cwtaft
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
I am remodeling a kitchen and moving the double oven unit and the stove to new locations. Each is currently fed by 8 ga wire and I would like to splice an additional 15 feet of 8 ga onto each circuit. Is this a reasonable thing to do? What is the recommended way of making the splice? Thanks for your help.
Cyrus
Replies
Keep in mind any splice must be inside a junction box, which must be accessible.
Use connectors rated for the application. For example, Ideal makes a Wing-nut rated for joining two #8 solid or stranded, but their wirenut is rated for two #8 stranded only.
Thanks. What are Wing-nuts? I bought some copper connectors that look like hollow bolts that the wires slide into. I assume that wrapping these connections with electrical tape is ok for insulation? I was wondering about whether soldering would be better or just a waste of time. I will be making the splice in a square metal box in the attic.
What are wing nuts!!!!
Step into the Tavern and have a look around.
You can't swing a dead cat without hitting at least three!!!!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Yeah LoL, like I said wouldn't it be easier for Cyrus, to just buy more wire and make a new run? Safer too
If this is in conduit, going all the way with new wire may well be more cost effective. The extra wire and time to pull it might be less than the time to make up the splices. You'd have to know how long the existing run is, and make a judgement call about how nasty the working conditions in that attic are. If it's Romex, you're stuck with splicing.
-- J.S.
Thanks to all that provided advice. I did strongly consider making a new home run but getting the new circuits into the existing service panel would have been pretty tough because of the way the existing wires are run. Where I am working in the attic is very accessible so I don't think it will be too bad.
Cyrus
Sorry if I steal this thead, but do you guys tape all of your wire nut connections? Do you tape around the terminals of outlets and switches? When I was much younger I worked in a resturant and part of my job was to help and old electrian (he must have been at least 50yr old and I was 17). He always wrapped his wire nut connections with electrical tape and he would wrap outlet and light switches. He said that it was good insurance and when the place got repainted the exposed outlets/switches would be safe. I have always done this. In my new house none of the wire nuts, outlets, switches are wrapped.
ARchyII--
Yea, some of the real old-timers I worked with--guys who installed knob and tube--could not get past the fact that a wirenut alone can make an adequate splice. They'd tape 'em up. A lot of inspectors now think that anyone who tapes wirenuts does it to hide a shoddy job (e.g., bare conductor extending past the skirt of the nut).
I guess there's no harm in it, but I believe there's really no benefit to it. I mean, you're wrapping PVC tape on clockwise (looking at the top of the 'nut), right? So as the tape adhesive starts to soften (like when the splice heats up due to normal current), the stretched tape will start to move, to return to its original length; and it'll "relax" CCW. If the 'nut is screwed on well, no problem. But might it loosen the nut?
On taping around devices, I occasionally do it in an old work situation where there's a metal box and the device is a real tight fit. But most GFIs not have the terminal screws recessed a little, and clearance isn't a problem with a regular receptacle or a switch. Taping over the terminal screws may keep a grounding conductor from accidentally touching a hot or neutral. At least for a while, it will; but eventually, I think the wire will cut through the tape. I'd rather have the ground fault trip the breaker while I'm there, so I can open up the box and rearrange the wires to address the underlying cause.
Cliff
Had an inspector require that we tape all wirenut connections at a FAA radar site. He claimed that it increased their resistance to vibration. I guess it might help some. Maybe not. Hard to say.
I have taped connections in cases where there is a history of ants using wave tactics on the circuits. I have seen an entire 10 by 10 by 4 box filled to the top with dead ants. Seems that a single ant and a bit of moisture can get himself fried if the live surfaces are close enough. When the first ant dies it releases a distress signal that attracts his friends. Being single mindedly brave they march to their death while adding to the distress signal. This cycle continues until either the electrical or insect component fail. The tape keeps our insect friends safe and the boxes relatively unmolested.
That was a really interesting post. Learn something new everyday here at Breaktime.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
> I have seen an entire 10 by 10 by 4 box filled to the top with dead ants.
Perhaps you have an invention here -- an electric ant eliminator. I can just see the late night infomercial now. Do you think that if you stepped up the voltage with a transformer you might be able to do roaches? ;-)
-- J.S.
John
You might be on to something there.
In an other forum a friend of mine was saying that ants where attracked to electric fields. He veified this when is well pump stopped and he found the pressure switch not working because it was jam packed with ants.
I am old fashioned, and do things the way I was taught. I tape all wire nuts, and tape them with the corresponding tape for the circuit, e.g., black for an unswitched hot line; red for a switched hot line; and orange or blue for other coded hot lines; and white for a neutral line. The tape, if brought all the way onto the wire, holds the wire nut snug and prevents anything from poking up into the wire nut and zapping your connection.
I also tape the sides of all switches . While this makes it a bit more dificult for a tester from being used on the switch from the outside with probes, it does prevent a short if one is dismantling the fixture without the breaker being turned off and it accidently makes contact with the side of the box, which is only about 1/8th of an inch away.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Thanks for the info. I will keep taping since it does not take very long and there does not seem to be any downside.
"Wing-nuts" are Ideal's twist-on connector with the 2 little plastic wings on either side.
'strange that they're rated differently than Ideal's Wire-nuts; I pointed out that example to make the point that you have to check that what you're using is rated for the application.
Appropriately-sized split bolts work fine; it's just the extra work of wrapping them, as has been pointed out.
For #8 or smaller I would go with wirenuts. By all means carefully read the packaging to make sure you get the right size for your application. I have had good luck with Scotchlock 2s but I think any major name brand, applied with some skill and a little care, would likely perform as well.
I included the text on split bolts because it was what you had on hand and you had little knowledge of wirenut, wingnuts being a particular brand of wirenut. These simple devices are the work horses of the electrical trade for the connection of smaller conductors. I had assumed, possibly wrongly, that the conductors were fairly large, #8 or larger, when I recommended the preinsulated lug set.
I'm not sure my text really helps but I'll keep swinging if you keep pitching.
What BarryO said.
I will add that if the circuit is run in aluminum, common in this area, that a trip to an electrical supply house for some anti-oxidant compound and a set of preinsulated lugs, saves on time, that are rated for aluminum may be the ticket. If you don't have one a small stainless steel brush, looks like Rambo's toothbrush, will help and are available on the isle with the welding equipment in the big box.
Brush or scrape off any excess oxides. Apply the anti-oxidant thickly and brush again. Wipe hands and apply a final coat just before you insert the conductors into the lugs. Tighten the lugs and do your final stapling or do something else for a few minutes. Recheck the lugs for tightness as the aluminum will tend to creep. Don't over tighten.
Be sure to use proper connectors where the cables go into the box and don't forget to install a cover. You probably knew this last part but I see this sort of obvious failure to get it right at least once a week.
What 4 and barry said but turn off the power!!!!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Fortunately these circuits are copper and not aluminum. Thanks anyway.
I'm no electrician, but why not just buy the entire length of wire and replace with a new home run. why mess with a splice and a box etc. It might not be cheaper, but it will be a better job. Why mess around? Every connection creates resistance and the entire length might be important too. How long is the run? like I said I am not an Elec. maybe you should ask one.
Does code really allow splicing , that size circuit?
Edited 7/23/2002 10:41:03 PM ET by Edgar76b
Insulating those split bolt connections will be the biggest chore. Rubber tape, electrical putty and high quality insulating, electrical, tape are available at most supply houses and some big boxes.
I start by packing the hollows and deep recesses with electrical putty to keep the splice from breathing. This is less important in a dry location but a good practice. Then tightly wrap the bolts with rubber tape, the type with a backing strip not normal electrical tape, paying particular attention to any protrusions or points that may threaten to puncture any insulation. Build up a little better than 1/8" of tightly wrapped rubber tape. The connection should look much more ball like if this is done properly.
Finish off by actually insulating, everything before this is just set up to keep the bolt from cutting the insulation, the connection with a high quality tape. I use 3M Super 33 for the final layers it is tough and stretches well. Try to get at least 3 layers, I go for 4 or 5, of this tape tightly wrapped smoothly and evenly to the entire split bolt. I tell my helpers that they should be able to hold the live joint under water without fear of getting shocked. Plan to use about half a roll of each type of tape on each connection. I use a little less, depending, but more, within reason, won't hurt. Don't scrimp but try to make it neat and even.
To finish the application use your dykes to cut the tape several inches after where you would finish. Don't tear it or touch the sticky side. Let this flag relax for few seconds and then wind it into place without stretching it or touching the sticky side of the tape. Polish the final edge with a thumbnail. Failure to do this final step correctly causes many joints to slowly unwind in time.
You could avoid this mess, it's not that bad after the first one, by using the set of preinsulated lugs mentioned before. They are quicker and easier but still care must be taken to make sure the insulation is not pressed against the wall of the box when the connections are stuffed in.
Edited 7/24/2002 12:01:13 AM ET by 4LORN1
"electrical putty "
Is that the same as anti-oxident?
Electrical putty looks like, and may actually be, common duct seal or rope putty. It should be available at any good electrical supply house in blocks. It won't add much to your connections seeing as that the box will be high and dry. I wouldn't worry too much about it in this case. I mention it only because it improves reliability of bolted connections that may be under water so IMHO it wouldn't be good to discuss bolt insulation without a mention of it.
It would occupy the air space that would breath as atmospheric or environmental pressure changes. In these cases the pressure, given enough time, can cause failure of the insulation and allow the connection to be filled with water. This causes corrosion, heating and electrical leakage.
The anti-oxidant, looks like grease, won't hurt a copper to copper connection, it is vital in any connection involving aluminum, but is not necessary unless the split bolt manufacturer recommends it.
I realize that my explanation was long and probably made it seem more complicated than it really is. I didn't mean to scare anyone off. Split bolts with hand wound insulation are a time honored solution with a long history of reliability that give an electrician a chance to show off his/her skills. The preinsulated lugs are faster, easier and adequate but being a romantic I still , sometimes , use the bolts. With practice it is not unreasonable to completely insulate a split bolt in 2 to 4 minutes including a final inspection. The second one you do will likely take half the time of the first. Get good at it and you may enjoy the process.
To make a splice in 10 ga, I did the following. (This was a splice that was to be in the middle of about a 70 foot run, outside. Not to be stuck in a wall somewhere.)
I cut one long, one medium, and one short leg on the ends of the 3 wires comprising the two cables to be spliced together. Making sure that there was a long and a short of white and a long and a short of black. The greens were both the medium size.
I cut back the insulation far enough that I was able to twist the wire ends around each other, leaving one single, twisted leg about 3 and a half inches long. I then folded that leg, (just the bare copper part), several times, until I had a knot of copper. Crimped it down tight.
I wrapped this with a couple of nylon wire ties, to prevent it from ever unbinding. I use the really thick, tough nylon wire ties. Not the cheesy kind that you can break just looking at them.
I wrapped that in about 20% of a roll of electrical tape. Yes, I ended up with three very large knots in there. And this is why I made the alternating lengths. When I was finished, I had a bundle that, when laid together, was only a little more than one third as thick as it would have been if all three 'knots' had been in the same place along the length.
I then wrapped all three together with pipe tape. Much thicker than electrical tape, and made to resist the weather. Used a LOT of that tape.
I then wrapped it solid, one wire tie at a time, from one end of the bunch to the other, with the nylon wire ties. Alternating the 'head' of the tie, 180 degrees from each other, every time.
Then folded a "Z" into the wire, and flattened it up to itself, and wire tied this together. (To keep the whole thing from ever being able to be pulled apart.)
Now looking like a small log.
I then slipped a piece of pvc pipe down over the whole thing. I filled it to the halfway point with 100% silicone sealant. Then wrapped that end up tight with the pipe tape, and wire tied everything so it would never unwind or pull loose. Repeated for the other end, and was done.
The end result looked a lot like some kind of plastic sausage. No water will ever get into it, and you would pull the actual cable itself apart before that splice would ever be pulled apart.
I was told afterward that the only thing really wrong with my approach was filling the sausage with silicone sealant. Apparently the sealant can degrade the wire, because of a chemical it puts off when curing. If I ever do it again, I will use rope putty instead.
Quittin' Time
I hope your kidding.
Luka ,
By the time an electron gets through that many twists and bends, it is gonna be SOOO dizzy it won't know whether its positive or negative!!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
4LORN1...
When have you ever known me to be serious ? For that matter, when have you ever known me not to be serious ?
; )
Mr T,
All I cared was that for as long as I used it, those electrons still remembered that they were electricity.
: )Quittin' Time