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Discussion Forum

Exterior door, jamb gap water issue

bluegoat | Posted in Construction Techniques on February 23, 2012 09:12am

I have an exterior 2nd floor deck door.  The original door was wood, the new door is fiberglass.  The new door is slightly narrower than the original.  Looking at the door from the outside there is a 1/4″ gap between the door and the jamb (this gap is inconsistent, larger in the middle and smaller towards the bottom / top).  There is an overhang above the door.  The door pushes out.

The problem is that the weather comes out of the east (the same side the door is on).  The rain is driven through the gap b/t the door and the jamb and accumulates between the door and the door stop.  The weatherstripping and the door sweep tend to hold the moisture in. 

Aside from doing a latch side jamb extension to make the opening narrower and reduce the gap what can I do to address the problem.  I was thinking I could install a sweep on the outside of the height of the door such that the flexible sweep hides the gap and any rain driven against it would drip down and not enter the jamb space.

Thoughts?

 

Thank you !

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Replies

  1. calvin | Feb 23, 2012 09:30pm | #1

    Well, from your description if I have it right................

    The jamb has a belly (bow out) on each side.  If you measure the distance between the jamb sides-top mid bot-the middle is greater.

    Pull some trim, reshim and fasten the jamb so the gap is consistant.

    Then, adjust the strike (some slide in/out by loosening the screws holding the plate)-others might have a screwdriver blade slot in the part that bends back into the strike mortise-you bend that out-it tightens the door to the stops/weatherstrips.  You want the door to latch tighter.  

    Until the weatherstrip becomes familiar with it, it may be a little hard to latch.

    Was this a replacement slab installed into an existing jamb?

    1. DanH | Feb 23, 2012 09:56pm | #3

      I think perhaps you meant "reshim".

    2. bluegoat | Feb 24, 2012 03:03am | #5

      Yes replacement door, original jamb.

      Even if I shimmed it for a constant reveal there would still be a large enough gap.  GAWD I wish I could post a photo.  Realistically there will always be some kind of clearance b/t the door and the jamb.  Not sure what would be standard.

      The door swings out so the stop is on the inside.  All along the stop is the weather stripping.  When the door is closed it is tight to the weatherstripping.

      The problem is on the outside the jamb gap allows rain to enter the jamb, this water then drains down and oozes or maybe wicks ( I assume ) between the inside face of the door and the weather stripping.

      1. calvin | Feb 24, 2012 06:52am | #7

        blue

        If the original was wider (slightly) and didn't leak-then I guess that is the problem.  How much would slightly be?

        Entry doors of this type have healthy gaps as it is--slightly might push it over the top.  Or, the "slightly" at the bows on each side might be the problem.

        I'd tighten the reveal b/4 trying to add something.  If it works, great-if not continue on.  I suppose if there's a wood edge on this door, you could "add" to the hinge side-the hinges are mostly surface mounted.

      2. DanH | Feb 24, 2012 06:52am | #8

        Shim out the hinges so all the gap is on the hinge side.  Then install a foam weatherstrip on the hinge edge of the door.

        1. bluegoat | Feb 24, 2012 04:16pm | #10

          Hi DanH,

          Thanks for the suggestion.  I was thiking about doing this...   the problem is that the hinge edge of the door is quite close to the current hinge edge of the jamb stop.  If I shim the door towards the latch then the door might actually be proud of the stop on the hinge side.

          I hate doors.  I am thinking I might add another sweep to the hinge side as well now that I can see the latch side sweep is preventing most of the rain.

          I am curious about the weatherstrip on the hinge side of the door that you recommend.  What kind of weatherstrip were you thinking?  Looking at the door it would appear it would have to go overtop of the hinges but that might not be terrible given when I look at the hinge leaf gap it appears to be about 1/4" or would you just use put the foam from the top to the bottom then cut out the area that overlaps the hinge?

          Thanks again !

          MG

          1. DanH | Feb 24, 2012 09:06pm | #11

            the problem is that the hinge edge of the door is quite close to the current hinge edge of the jamb stop.  If I shim the door towards the latch then the door might actually be proud of the stop on the hinge side.

            It sounds to me like you simply have the wrong size door for that opening.  Likely the best solution would be to remove the latch side jamb, shorten the threshold and top jamb slightly, then reinstall the latch jamb to make a narrower opening.  A PITA but not an impossible task by any stretch.

            Or you could laminate a wood strip to either edge of the door.

            The foam weatherstrip I have in mind is the compressible stuff sold either as a simple rectangular strip of foam with adhesive on one side, or the round hollow rubber stuff.  Either, if applied to the shimmed hinge edge of the door (or the jamb facing the hinge edge), would simply compress when the door was shut, with no friction, and would be mostly hidden with the door shut.

  2. calvin | Feb 23, 2012 09:43pm | #2

    one other thing

    Is the water entering at the bottom?  If so, what's the detail at the bottom of the weatherstrip?  Is the adjustible threshold making good contact all along the bottom sweep?

    I know we install pads at the bottom of inswings, tucked behind the weatherstrip-if they also go on an outswing, are these in position?

    1. bluegoat | Feb 24, 2012 02:58am | #4

      i'd love to post pics but forum appears broken.

      Anyone else have this problem?

      Tried jpg, gig, png all below 4megs in FF, Chrome and IE.

      Gives me some kind of upload HTTP code 0 and then sometimes I get the following as well:

      Internal Server Error

      The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

      Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

      More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

    2. bluegoat | Feb 24, 2012 03:10am | #6

      After it has rained and I open the door, the jamb is wet from about 12" up to the threshold.

      The bottom of the door has a sweep and it is very tight against the threshold - door is hard to open and the sweep is rubbing off on the aluminum (being sanded). 

      The weather strip is against the bottom door stop (sill) and the door seals tight against this - i've already pulled the door in by moving the bolt/latch plates in and the 3 hinges towards the inside by 1/4".

    3. bluegoat | Feb 24, 2012 04:07pm | #9

      pic is my avatar

      So I was able to upload a pic as my profile picture since the normal upload isn't working.

      You can see how bad it looks...   I installed a door sweep to conceal the jamb gap on the outside edge of the door.  Doesn't look particularly great from outside but it does prevent 90% of the water from getting into the jamb crack.  Largest door sweep I could find was 36" so really only does about 1/2 the height of the door.

      I am also thinking I should drill some weap holes into the door sweep so that water that accumulates on the threshold can follow the drain slope instead of just sitting in there.

      The revel is difficult to adjust as the door jamb depth is 12".  The outside is stucco with two piece mitred cedar for trim which would be virtually impossible to remove without damaging. If I take the trim off on the inside then I need to be able to shim from only the one direction and I'd also need to push the shim past the inner jamb extension piece.  This is really my last option as it requires significant repairs.

      Thanks for the thoughts.

  3. bluegoat | Feb 27, 2012 04:29pm | #12

    Vinyl Cove Baseboard

    I did check out some of the doors at homedepot that are demo installed into jambs and the gaps between the doors and the jambs appear somewhat consistent with the gap between the door and the jamb in my case.  While the install is far from perfect it is likely within normal build parameters and the problem is likely that an exterior swing door on the South East face where all the weather blows towards is going to have this kind of issue.  Even if I go to the effort to get the jamb perfect I think there will still be water coming into the door stop area.  Looking at the image of the threshold damage I really need  a solution that will eliminate the water from coming in.

    So I tried adding some vinyl cove baseboard to the door such that it seal the gap between the door and the jamb.  Unfortunately this baseboard is quite a bit thicker than a typical vinyl sweep (1/4" thick vs 1/16") and the exterior trim around the door is weakly fastened to the jamb so when I open the door the vinyl pushing the trim and threatens to rip it off (I have to heave at the moment to open the door, 1/2 of this is the door sweep being quite tight to the threshold and the other is the new baseboard).  I was hoping to have it sweep and have a good seal to the trim but either I need to find thinner vinyl or I need to leave a gap between it and the trim. 

    I did see a product in home depot for sealing the side of garage doors that is about 7' tall and i might be able to retrofit into my application but it was fairly pricey $32 and had a 2" portion that holds the vinyl sweep.  Given the baseboard isn't quite working out I might go this route.

    I am still thinking on the hinge side the foam weather strip mounted on the exterior edge of the door hinge side might work there without too much uglyness.

    Anyone other ideas?

    Now that the image upload is working here are some pictures.

    Thanks for all the attention / suggestions so far !!!!!

    1. calvin | Feb 27, 2012 05:46pm | #13

      bg

      You mentioned the bottom sweep on the door is good-I see there's no adjustible threshold there.  Does your sweep (along the bottom of the door edge) have several flexible "fins" and do they sweep across that threshold?

      In the picture above, there is also a gap between the jamb weatherstrip and the metal lip on that theshold.  That is where I previously mentioned we use a flexible wedge "pad" usually supplied with the door unit.  Also applied to the other side.  Can you ask at that worthless depot if they have a couple they could give you ?   They peel and stick and slip behind that jamb weatherstrip and usually sit on top of the adj. thresh.   However, in your case, I think I'd cut a notch in the pad and let it go down all the way down (part of it will sit on the top of that raised lip.

      Did you replace the jamb weatherstrip when you put that new door slab in?  Might not hurt to do that either.

      In the pic above?  What is that clear sheild above the door?  Does it tip back towards the wall?  If it was tipped the other way it might shed water-now it could direct it back to the wall and then down both sides of the door.

      And in the pic above-is that a surface applied sweep on the door?   If so, any water getting alongside the door is being kept from exiting out by it.  

      1. bluegoat | Feb 27, 2012 08:22pm | #14

        now we are on the same page !

        So yes the bottom of the door has a sweep that has the fins which run parallel to the door threshold, and yes I believe they could easily hold any water in that got into the jamb and drained into the sweep area.  One of my posts I thought possibly making some weep holes might allow the sweep to drain, wasn't sure if this was a great idea or not.

        I am having a hard time picturing the flexible wedge "pad" that you describe.  The big box store is actually a ways away so I tend to favor my local building centers but they don't tend to have enough space for displays so I can see what the actual installs are typically like.  I'll see if I can't locate some of these wedge pads.  The raised lip you are talking about is the inside oak door sill that the metal threshold abuts against, is that correct?

        I have not replaced the weatherstripping but I have bought a replacement piece.  Once I eliminate the water issue I'll fully clean up this area and put a new piece in.  Note this is new construction and the area is question is almost a year old so I need to stop the problem.

        Your point with the surface applied sweep is that you think I should replace it with a door face applied sweep?  I guess part of the reason for the surface applied sweep is that it allows a pretty tight air seal...   but this is bad if water is somehow getting into the door jamb area.  Do you think the weep holes would not work well enough?

        The overhang above the door is tempered glass, it is slightly sloped away from the door so the water dribbles off the side farthest from the front of the door.  I've examined the door after rain periods and it is only the bottom say 1/3 of the jamb that shows drops of water say 20 drops on each side.  These eventually drain into the sweep area and I assume sit there. 

        Thanks for the close look at the pictures and the ideas !!!

        I am thinking a long piece of pvc shower curtain in place of the pvc cove baseboard might work.  The trick would be finding something that is rigid enough.  Though if I screw it into the door and the rain is wind driven this would serve to hold the plastic tight against the door and jamb seal.  It would be nicer to find something that was 1/8" thick like the face mounted door sweep pvc, trick is finding it in the length I need.

        1. calvin | Feb 27, 2012 08:39pm | #15

          Tough to say-I'm miles from your place. Who installed it?

          bluegoat wrote:

          So yes the bottom of the door has a sweep that has the fins which run parallel to the door threshold, and yes I believe they could easily hold any water in that got into the jamb and drained into the sweep area.  One of my posts I thought possibly making some weep holes might allow the sweep to drain, wasn't sure if this was a great idea or not.

          I could not see the fins, so I thought maybe you only had a surface applied sweep (that dark area on the exterior door shot).  Since you say you don't have an exterior surface applied sweep and think it would hold water, I would not recommend putting one on for the reason you think-it'll hold water from draining.  I don't think weep holes are the answer-unless you don't mind some breeze getting by the fins.

          I am having a hard time picturing the flexible wedge "pad" that you describe.  The big box store is actually a ways away so I tend to favor my local building centers but they don't tend to have enough space for displays so I can see what the actual installs are typically like.  I'll see if I can't locate some of these wedge pads.  The raised lip you are talking about is the inside oak door sill that the metal threshold abuts against, is that correct?

          I'll look for a picture of one of the pads.  The raised lip I see is grey and sits under the jamb weatherstrip.  The oak floor butts up to that grey thing.  Is it part of the jamb/threshold that was originally set?  And it was set as a prehung unit with door?

          I have not replaced the weatherstripping but I have bought a replacement piece.  Once I eliminate the water issue I'll fully clean up this area and put a new piece in.  Note this is new construction and the area is question is almost a year old so I need to stop the problem.

          I would replace all the jamb weatherstrip if it was older-there should be no reason to replace if it's not damaged or not sitting right.

          Your point with the surface applied sweep is that you think I should replace it with a door face applied sweep?  I guess part of the reason for the surface applied sweep is that it allows a pretty tight air seal...   but this is bad if water is somehow getting into the door jamb area.  Do you think the weep holes would not work well enough?

          Nope, A surface sweep will hold water that gets behind.  Weeps?  see above.

          The overhang above the door is tempered glass, it is slightly sloped away from the door so the water dribbles off the side farthest from the front of the door.  I've examined the door after rain periods and it is only the bottom say 1/3 of the jamb that shows drops of water say 20 drops on each side.  These eventually drain into the sweep area and I assume sit there. 

          Thanks for the close look at the pictures and the ideas !!!

          I am thinking a long piece of pvc shower curtain in place of the pvc cove baseboard might work.  The trick would be finding something that is rigid enough.  Though if I screw it into the door and the rain is wind driven this would serve to hold the plastic tight against the door and jamb seal.  It would be nicer to find something that was 1/8" thick like the face mounted door sweep pvc, trick is finding it in the length I need.

  4. calvin | Feb 28, 2012 06:40am | #16

    sorry if you can't understand my description..............

    Here's a link to the pads and other info:  Open these links in a new tab or window so you don't navigate away from this post and lose your way back.  I do not endorse these products, just used Endura to show you examples of what I'm talking about.  Many door companies offer the same options.

    http://www.enduraproducts.com/product-overview/weatherseals/index.aspx

    edit:  Trying our new LINK button:   http://www.enduraproducts.com/product-overview/weatherseals/index.aspx

    Go to it and read it all on this page-then look to the right and study up on:

    Weatherseals

    Overview

    Problems and Solutions

    The Simple Corner

    Simple Solution Compression Corner Seal

    Endura Weatherstrip

    Door Bottoms

    Options/Profiles/Sizes

     

    The "grey thing"  I mention appears to be another flexible weatherstrip.  I mistook it for a raised aluminum part of the threshold.

    You have pulled it out a bit in this picture:

     

    EDIT:  Is that a gap between the painted jamb and the exterior stained "cedar"?  That's not good if it is.

     

     

    I've never seen anything like this on a threshold.  In new prehung entries there's usually a raised adjustible threshold which you can move up or down for a good fit to the bottom sweep on your door.

     

    Further, what you have doesn't appear to have much fall (slope to the outside) which would evacuate water easier to the outside.

     

    You might be able to leave what you have-install the corner pads and solve the problem-I would change out the threshold to an adjustible like on new door entry systems (see the link above-I bet they show what I"m talking about.

     

    So NO, I wouldn't remove the bottom sweep.  I'd make it work and do what it is supposed to do-keep out air, keep out water.  To do that I'm pretty sure I'd replace the threshold with an adjustible one and even cut the door bottom and refit a sweep if necessary.

     

     

    If this was a new install-it shouldn't leak.  Your near grade situation doesn't help.  Can't tell if there's much fall on that patio surface, but a deluge of rain has to exit or it's possible for water to pool up deep enough to not help water get away from that threshold.

     

    A complete unit will stand the best chance of working properly.  What you have now is getting too cobbled up to work as it was intended.  The "builder" should have taken the whole thing out and started over.  Did you or he supply this door and jamb unit?

     

    or

     

    do I remember you saying it is a new door in an old jamb? 

     

    If it didn't work from the start then it's safe to assume it wasn't right from the start.

     

     

    Further, in this picture:

     

     

     

    The threshold is just sitting there bumped up against the jamb side.  This joint will allow water to get under the threshold and seep back in-under your oak floor and rot it from below.  You should clean it and dry it out completely and then caulk that joist with Urethane caulk.  Both ends of the threshold as it can't be any better on the other end.

     

     

    How am I doing with explaining it this time?

    1. bluegoat | Feb 28, 2012 03:17pm | #18

      Thank you !!!

      I'll read through those links.

      Ah, the grey thing is probably the spline of the weatherstripping.  When I pulled it back the silicon portion unglued from the spline.

      The builder supplied everything or his door sub did.

      Probably hard to tell from these pics but there is at least 2" of height under the metal threshold and the deck vinyl membrane does come up the wall so unless the water really pools then that should be fine.

      Yeah the threshold should probably have been installed under the jamb trim and not leave that giant gap there.  I am planning on caulking it, good to have the suggestion on the urethane I'd probably just have used something I had lying around.

      I am sure I'll have some more questions once I get through the reading =)

      Thanks for the patience and all the discussion so far.  This door is a headache.  I am tempted to have the builder come back and get him to fix the problem.  I thought this was going to be some minor stuff that I could do without too much difficulty but it doesn't seem to be the case.  Good experience for me though certainly learning a lot about exterior doors. 

    2. bluegoat | Feb 28, 2012 03:43pm | #20

      To be fair to the bulider the installation isn't a standard installation.

      The RO is 10", add the stucco and drywall we are at 13" edge to edge opening in the wall.  To be more energy efficient the door is setback from the outside edge by 2" (less wind blown against the glass).  This accounts for the custom sill that had to be made for the door and while they didn't do a great job with that, the 4" set back probably does reduce the amount of water that gets into the jamb space.  It would have been nice if they had properly shimmed the jamb so there was no belly but that likely isn't a major issue in this case. 

      Probably the best solution would have been to never use a outswing exterior door in the direction where all the rain and wind come from.  Aside from that yes the weather stripping isn't great.  The threshold should have been caulked but this isn't a simple case of choose a 2x12 RO door (do they even make those) and install per normal.  There are extra considerations that had to be made and it is in the detail of this custom work that the problems are found (the custom work is lacking in thought).

      The glass overhang was added after as part of a solution to address the wind blown rain.

      At least that is my somewhat educated view of the situation.  I've been looking at a fair number of door installs and most seem to have issues with the weatherstripping.  I don't know if these pads are fairly standard but looking at a lot of the exterior doors and their weatherstripping I see many of the same detail issues this door has - not to say that this should be common or expected.

      1. calvin | Feb 28, 2012 04:21pm | #21

        blue

        Even in a perfect situation where all openings are standard and everything is good in the world, there are certain details that should be the norm that are not followed.  Sometimes called Best Practice.  Too many "installers" get paid by the "install" and glossing over some of these best practices are how they get done and make money.  A shame really, as if a quality install is bid against something like this, then who loses?   The customer for sure, the builder if he subs it and our industry as a whole-because now the lesser install price becomes what the public wants.

        Numero uno-if it was done, is a pan of some sort should be installed in this situation for sure-caulking under a threshold may keep water out today, but seasonal movement and traffic across that threshold will over time change that.  Google door or window pans to see more about this.

        The jamb extension should have been figured out and probably installed onto the stock jamb (probably the widest available) along with whatever sills were available b/4 it was installed.  This could provide as seamless an install as possible (with added joining of the two pcs from the backside so they didn't "pull off".  While an unusual situation, it surely isn't an impossible one.

        Too many times things are thought through as we go along, the job grows during building, rather than in planning.  This has a good chance of messing up important details.

        If all we had to do was build a box with a roof and no penetrations, it'd be an easy job.   It's those pesky holes we put in there that gum up the works. 

    3. bluegoat | Mar 07, 2012 02:44am | #25

      Still thinking about those corner pads.

      This is a picture of the deck door closed from the inside.  The weatherstripping appears to get flattened against the side of the jamb rather than the front of the door stop in the bottom corner.  It appears this is partly due to the design of the door.  The inside face of the door has a reveal which provides a gap for the weatherstripping - except at the very bottom where it comes back out to match the surface and provide a better edge for the door sweep.

      Any idea if the corner pads will solve this problem or if there is some other solution?

      I did use my dremel osc tool to remove a portion of the sweep which I thought might help.  This worked well on the latch side.  I suspect that the weather stripping has just lost it's memory as the original install had it being flattened like this for month.

      The corner pad site looked quite promissing I just need to special order or find a similar product from a different company.  

      1. calvin | Mar 07, 2012 06:17am | #26

        blue

        From these photo's you've posted, I'm not impressed at all on the materials or the installation.  While it allows you a smooth transition to the outside, all you have blocking the water at the bottom is a sweep on the bottom of the door (that looks like it's adjusted as high as it will go on the hinge side) and a compressible weatherstrip (that at the corners is the hardest for these to make a perfect seal).   There's little fall on the threshold that adds to the ability of water to come in.

        Here the extension thresh looks like there's little if no fall to the outside.

        The darkened grain of the wood usually means pretty good saturation.

        The wood floor shows that water has been a common problem.  Looks like more than surface damage-I'd be surprised if it isn't soaking the wood all along the butt edge as well as staying moist underneath.

        I would go to a good lumberyard, a bogus box store, anywhere that sells doors and get a pair of pads and try it.  If it works, a cheap fix.  Still, the install as I see it is marginal at best and constant monitoring will be the future.

        Best of luck.

        1. bluegoat | Mar 07, 2012 12:44pm | #29

          sweep recommendations

          Thanks again for the response.  I feel like I am killing this subject but I am committed to getting this issue solved so I can move onto other things.

          I'll find some of these corner pads.  What is your advice on the sweep.  You'd cut the bottom of the door and re-install so the sweep isn't fitting as tightly?  Does the sweep need to make good contact with the threshold to be effective at keeping the air/water out?  The question I still have then is if water does get into the jamb bottom how is it supposed to get out?

          I am curious what you would do differently if you had to install this door at the start of construction.  The things I'd change are:

          - the shimming would be proper at the latch strike plate area such that no belly is created in the jamb.

          - better weatherstripping (something along the lines of the site you sent)

          - threshold would go under the exterior trim instead of leaving that gap.

          You would give a slope to the oak interior threshold?

          Here are a couple overview pictures as the others have all been detail shots.

          1. calvin | Mar 07, 2012 08:36pm | #30

            oh my.

            What would I do differently?

            I would make sure the slab that door sits on was level all the way across it's expanse.  Is it foamed or caulked under the metal threshold?  Not good.

            I would have installed in this case, a metal pan first between the framing at each side of the rough opening, weatherfit and sealed, that could capture any, water that might make it behind the door jamb/threshold.  That pan would have a lip on the backed / ends that would keep water from that oak step (all along I thought it was a floor.

            The thresh would have positive fall to the exterior.

            When you open your pic above it's HUGE.  But when you do, you can really see some detail.  How is that door casing made up?  Is it hollow, with no cap on the bottom?  Water doesn't just go down.

            I would have a bottom of the door seal pushed down to seal and allow the door to open nicely.  You want to keep water and air OUTSIDE.  The interior side of that thresh would have a lip with a small bulb weatherstrip that would compress  when the door is closed.

            (so no to the slope of the interior wood, yes to the slope down and out of that metal threshold)

            The corner pads as already mentioned.

            Frame would be made utilizing a "Frame-Saver" at the bottom portion of the jamb.  No wood, no rot.

            The perimeter trim / stucco would be installed in such a manner to keep water and air out.

            Then say a bit of a prayer-and not relying on caulk.

            Seal all the cut ends of wood.

          2. bluegoat | Mar 08, 2012 02:43am | #31

            The outside trim (casing) is mitred cedar.  1 1/2" on the jamb side and 3" on the outside face.  It is solid and while there is a top there is no bottom.

            The aluminum threshold looks to be foamed to the blueskin.

            Is framesaver from Endura? 

            http://www.enduraproducts.com/product-overview/framesaver/index.aspx

            While there is no framesaver in this case, the casing isn't touching the threshold or the decking so likely not a large chance of the framesaver issue.

            So let's assume that you did the install.

            The pan is installed and butts up against the oak step.  The aluminum threshold is put on top of the pan.  Is there still a bottom piece of weather stripping against the oak step that serves as the bottom door stop?

            Let's assume you also properly shimmed the jamb for the door but that their is still a clearance between the door and the jamb and let's assume that some water does get wind blown into the jamb area.  The water would drain down to the threshold and sit there restricted from exiting by the U shaped door sweep.  The threshold is aluminum so it won't rot and the pan is protecthing the oak step so it won't rot.  At some point though assume you aren't using the deck in the winter and the rain continues to drain into this area, either the water goes over the inside pan side or it goes over the top of the sweep attached to the door at which point the water would start to either rot the door (the fiberglass door has a bottom wood piece for the sweep to attach to), soak into the step weatherstrip or rot out the sides of the jamb (guess you are protected via the framesaver).  Even without rot from the water surely this area would mold or misdue.

            Is that how you think it would work or am I missing something?

            Thanks again,

            MG

          3. calvin | Mar 08, 2012 06:52am | #32

            Some more information to clog your brain.

            bluegoat wrote:

            The outside trim (casing) is mitred cedar.  1 1/2" on the jamb side and 3" on the outside face.  It is solid and while there is a top there is no bottom.

            The aluminum threshold looks to be foamed to the blueskin.

            Is framesaver from Endura? 

            http://www.enduraproducts.com/product-overview/framesaver/index.aspx

            While there is no framesaver in this case, the casing isn't touching the threshold or the decking so likely not a large chance of the framesaver issue.

            So let's assume that you did the install.

            The pan is installed and butts up against the oak step.  The aluminum threshold is put on top of the pan.  Is there still a bottom piece of weather stripping against the oak step that serves as the bottom door stop?

            Let's assume you also properly shimmed the jamb for the door but that their is still a clearance between the door and the jamb and let's assume that some water does get wind blown into the jamb area.  The water would drain down to the threshold and sit there restricted from exiting by the U shaped door sweep.  The threshold is aluminum so it won't rot and the pan is protecthing the oak step so it won't rot.  At some point though assume you aren't using the deck in the winter and the rain continues to drain into this area, either the water goes over the inside pan side or it goes over the top of the sweep attached to the door at which point the water would start to either rot the door (the fiberglass door has a bottom wood piece for the sweep to attach to), soak into the step weatherstrip or rot out the sides of the jamb (guess you are protected via the framesaver).  Even without rot from the water surely this area would mold or misdue.

            Is that how you think it would work or am I missing something?

            Thanks again,

            MG

            Here's some more info-enjoy your read.

            https://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/15212/inswing-or-outswing-doors

            and, if the image appears:

            View Image

            and:

            notice the steeper drop on the threshold:  if image appears........

            View Image

            and:

            http://www.marvin.com/download.aspx?DocumentID=619

            notice the extension threshold detail installation detail:

            http://www.andersenwindows.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2FpdfContent-Disposition%3A+inline%3B+filename%3D112451.pdf%3B&blobkey=id&blobnocache=false&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1307333237848&ssbinary=true

  5. DanH | Feb 28, 2012 07:33am | #17

    Too bad the door wasn't properly replaced before they did the stucco.

    The whole installation sucks.  The threshold should run under the jambs on both sides, not simply butt up to them.

    1. bluegoat | Feb 28, 2012 03:19pm | #19

      Door hadn't failed yet when the stucco was still being installed but yes it is too bad they did a horrible job installing it in the first place.

      Question is once the door has failed and they decide they did a bad job on the threshold and need to swap it, how do you get a new threshold in once the jamb trim and stucco has already been finished.

      1. DanH | Feb 28, 2012 08:28pm | #22

        The jambs can come out without messing up the stucco (too much).  If there weren't the flooring on the inside, inserting a new threshold would be fairly easy.  Doing it now would be a trick, but one could figure it out.

      2. sapwood | Mar 07, 2012 11:40am | #28

        From what I can tell by looking at the photos, you will be better served in the long run to replace the threshold now, not later. There simply isn't enough information in the photos to advise the best course of action. It will take a competant contractor ON-SITE to analyze the situation and come up with a solution. Interview a few but first ask around for referrals. Only you know if it will be worth your time and trouble to call back the original contractor. None of the guys here likes to see a bad contractor get away with shoddy work, but sometimes it's best to "just let it go."

        It may be helpful to consider replacing the oak flooring near the door. In our new remodel, we installed slate right at the exterior doors. Its a nice place to land with wet feet and not so large to intrude on the nice oak. The slate will never rot.

  6. DanH | Feb 28, 2012 08:47pm | #23

    You could use "trim screws"

    You could use "trim screws" to fasten the trim.  They are screws with a tiny head that looks like an oversized finishing nail.

    1. bluegoat | Mar 07, 2012 02:34am | #24

      Trim scews

      I might do that.  I'll have to see what I can find in terms of trim scews.  The trim really shouldn't be moveable with my barehands.  Were you thinking something like the GRK ones?

      http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/TRIM_0_information.htm

      I found a thinner source in vinyl in 82" length.  The baseboard was really too rigid.  I now have 84" white smooth vane (pieces for blinds) that I cut to width and installed against the door side.  The baseboard was working quite well keeping the water out so I've replaced that with this and aside from a bit of a scrapping sound when opening the door appears to be well sealed from water on the latch side.  I'll likely apply the same solution to the other side as well.  I'll check again next rain storm to see how wet the jamb looks on that side.  I am probably going to play a little with backing off the latch side sweep so it isnt so much as sweeping as just having much less clearance.

      Overall the door doesn't look too noticibly different with the vinyl strip installed, I just need to paint the ss fasteners I used attaching it to the door.  Side benefit is that this should cut down a bit on the amount of wind blowing against the inner weatherstripping.  The only thing that remains to be seen is how long the vinyl holds up under the UV, water and wind.  

      Thanks for the suggestions on this topic !

      1. DanH | Mar 07, 2012 07:33am | #27

        The GRK trim screws are a hair "clunkier" than some others, with a larger head, proportionally.  But that's the general idea.  They're likely not available in SS or galvanized, though, so you should probably set them and putty/caulk over, or at least paint well.

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