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Exterior primer: Oil vs. 1-2-3

fredo | Posted in Construction Techniques on August 3, 2008 10:25am

We are painting a 1900 building that was encased in stucco some decades ago. We ripped that horror and exposed the original siding, beveled fir on the 1st and 2nd floors, and shingles on the 3rd floor and gables.

The beveled siding is in excellent shape and appears to have ever had only a single coat of paint on it (that old lead paint sure worked pretty well). There is a fair amount of flaking , and also millions of nailholes from the stucco nailers. These will be knifed over with elastomeric compound.

We lost a fair amount of shingles in the process of ripping the stucco (about 1/3). We patched with a combination of unprimed and factory-primed shingles. So we have three types of shingles including the 108-yr old ones which appear oil-infused.

Last bit of info, the building is located in the Pacific NW (Portland, OR) where it can be rainy at times.

My question is this: My instinct says apply an oil-based primer-sealer and oil-based topcoat(s) over the whole thing. Admittedly I’m no professional painter, I’ve just done a fair bit of painting in my day. My painter is grudgingly willing to consider an oil-based primer but tells me that Zinsser’s 1-2-3 will work just as well, and he insists that we should definitely NOT topcoat with oil-based. The Miller rep seems to concur.

If that makes any difference we plan to do 2 colors, LRVs 40 and 60 (approx.), plus white trim LRV 95.

What do you guys think? Thank you for your advice, it is appreciated.

F

 


Edited 8/3/2008 3:27 am ET by fredo

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  1. User avater
    Sphere | Aug 03, 2008 02:24pm | #1

    A product by Porter or Sherwin Williams ( Permanizer and Duration, repectively) that is "self priming" would be a good top coat. Both are like liquid caulk. I STILL prime and I have found two things to be true..first, Oil primer will eventually shrink enough to crack, possibly causing issue with the top coat. And second, the oil primer ( A-100 SW, in this case) really helps the top coat go farther...BUT adds almost TOO much thickness in some cases.

    If there is fine detail to be preserved, I prefer the 1-2-3 or Kilz sprayed. I find a coat of primer even where not always needed as a paint base, allows a better visual of defects , voids that need caulk attn.  Rather than stumble upon those issues with the top coat brush in hand, and the other putty and patch tools and supplies put away.

    As far as Oil top coat..not for me. The newer latex mixes are great, and products such as Hardie demand only latex.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

    You gonna play that thing?

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    1. crashingoaks | Aug 03, 2008 11:14pm | #15

      Right on! You just introduced me to a whole new thing. TY Jeff Beck Which I already Knew
      But Tal! wow I like it. Awesome Thanks!

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Aug 04, 2008 12:50am | #27

        Yeah, she rocks.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

        You gonna play that thing?

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0

  2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Aug 03, 2008 02:45pm | #2

    I'm not a pro painter nor do I have any experience that relates directly to your conditions but...I've been using latex based exterior wood primer for close to fifty years.   

    Needless to say, their formulations have improved considerably over that time.    They have more elasticity and adhesive qualities than ever before, penetrating and bonding extremely well.

    The same goes for top coat paint.  The latex types are formulated to bond with their counterpart primer so puttin oil based over latex is not going to work especially well. 

    P.S. When all else fails, read the instructions on the can or the manufacturer's web site.

     

     

     



    Edited 8/3/2008 7:52 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter

  3. User avater
    BarryE | Aug 03, 2008 03:42pm | #3

    I still like to spec an oil primer (not the fast dry stuff) with 2 coats of 100% acrylic for the topcoat or as an upgrade one of the new generation of exterior paint such as Duration.

    I would be a little leery of the Zinsser 1 2 3 in this application. I trust it more as a sealer than a primer.

    exterior primers are one of the few areas left where I feel that oil still out performs latex


    Barry E-Remodeler

     

    1. User avater
      kurt99 | Aug 03, 2008 05:33pm | #4

      I too vote for a traditional slow dry oil primer on old wood. I feel that the oil will penetrate into old, dried out wood and bonds better than the latexes which tend to bond tenaciously to the top layer but do not penetrate well. If the top layer is sun damaged and weak, it is pulled off by the primer and fails.Oil based top coats were surpassed by latexes many years ago. Oil based paint fade badly and loose there gloss in only a few years. They are much more brittle so they will fail much sooner with the expansion and contraction of the wood underneath.

      1. jimblodgett | Aug 03, 2008 06:54pm | #5

        (Not necessarily to Kurt, but to anyone...)

        If you have a "...brittle..." layer of primer which "...will fail much sooner with the expansion and contraction of the wood underneath..." what is the latex (presumadly more flexible) topcoat adhering to? 

        It's been my understanding for many years that oil primer and latex top coat is the best way to paint exterior wood, but I sure don't understand why.  Hoping to get it straight - just yesterday got an e mail from a customer asking for advice on how to best paint a screen door I'm building for them. 

        Love this forum because of all the basic questions people ask, and the varied opinions about how to best solve the problem and why. 

        1. User avater
          BarryE | Aug 03, 2008 08:38pm | #7

          This is my understanding from many many years ago in apprenticeship class..but my mind wandered sometimes.Some paint failures such as alligatoring, checking and other failures can be caused by the top coat being harder than the primer. The undercoat needs to be harder than the topcoats. What can make the primer softer is to use fast dry primers because these primers , and the reason I recommend against 1 2 3, have liquids with "semi drying" characteristics. This is why, up to a point, that it is good for the primer to be exposed for a certain amount of time. Primer exposed the right amount of time causes the process of oxidation which makes for a harder surface, which as I said is good up to a point. To much oxidation and the surface needs recoatedThe top coat needs to be more elastic and be able to move which is why you can put latex paints over oil but never should use oils over latex.Elasticity is why I always prefer 100% acrylics for topcoats..they are soft enough to allow for changes that take place in exterior materials but can take a beating by the weatherbottom line undercoat hard, topcoat elastic

          Barry E-Remodeler

           

          1. jimblodgett | Aug 03, 2008 09:16pm | #8

            What does that work "acrylic" mean?  What would be an example of a "non-acrylic" paint?

            There are oil based acrylics, and water based acrylics, right? 

          2. User avater
            BarryE | Aug 03, 2008 10:17pm | #10

            All paints have, for the most part, 4 ingredients: binders, pigments, liquid and additives. The liquid is usually water, paint thinner, alcohol or lacquer thinner depending on the product. this of course just helps the application and burns off for the most part. The binder
            helps hold everything together and promotes adhesion, ease of application and "toughness" of the paint among other thingsacrylic is a plastic type binder used in in waterbased paints. it can also be a binder in water-bourne paints. I believe it can be in oil paints, probably in emulsion or modified types. But I believe in the residential market we mainly see it in water based. Latex is also a binder, so I mis-spoke in the other post. but i guess latex is a commoly used term for waterbased. oil paint is another misnomer, alkyd is an oil modified paint which dries harder than pure oil paintsA few years ago exterior paints were a mixture of vinyl and acrylic binders, some still are probably. Interior paints are still usually a vinyl-acrylic mix but many are trending toward 100% acrylic also Today, I think, the better exterior topcoats are 100% acrylic. vinyl is often mixed in with acrylic to keep the price down, but for scrubability and durability the more acrylic the betterThere are paints, mostly primers that are PVA based, which is a polyvinyl acetate. there is also a Styrene acrylic paints which is mostly used in some masonry or DTM paints.what piffin is referring to is that the old alkyd primers had lead and other goodies in them which helped keep the tannins in cedar from bleeding through the paint. i remember in the sixties when they phased the lead out of paint and builders were still using a lot of cedar for fascia and other trim, we were getting a lot of callbacks because of the tannin bleeding out. the paint companies started developing primer/ sealers to stop the problem. there's one place that frenchies shellac comes in handy.

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

  4. Piffin | Aug 03, 2008 07:39pm | #6

    I normally use 123 for small repair jobs because it dries fast and use oil for larger spaces.

    In your case, I think the 123 is the better choice because the material is all different now and because it is cedar which tends to bleed thru oil. Thge 123 will seal the cedar tannins and help create similar texture in the finish over all three different things you have now.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. jimblodgett | Aug 03, 2008 09:22pm | #9

      Wait.  Are you saying NOT to use oil based primers on cedar because of the oils in the cedar?  I always thought that was the reason to use oil based primers on cedar, because the oil in the primer could (chemically) bond with the oil in the wood, thereby adhering.  Whereas a water based primer would have the problem of oil and water not bonding.

      I don't know what this "1-2-3" is, but this oil-water incombatibility until dry was one of the things I thought I really DID understand about paints, stains, top coats (either clear or pigmented, interior or exterior).

      What part of the puzzle am I missing? 

      1. Piffin | Aug 03, 2008 10:37pm | #11

        I think I said because of the tannins in the cedar, not because of the oils in cedar, but I've been known to mis-speak before.On new wood, we prime with oil then where there is bleed through we hit it again with 123. On pine that means spots on knots is all. On fir it means knots and sap pockets. On cedar it means most of another whole coat. I am A FAN OF OIL PRIMER ON BARE WOOD FOR EXTERIORS, BUT IT DOESN'T STOP BLEED THROUGH OF STAINS.123 IS A SHELLAC BASED SEAL COAT THAT PREVENTS BLEEDING STAINS.oops, who hit that caps key? 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          BarryE | Aug 03, 2008 10:44pm | #12

          Piffin,I think you are confusing your zinsser products, it's easy to dozinsser's BIN is shellac basedzinsser's Bullseye 1 2 3 is a water based productwhich is why i wouldn't recommend 1 2 3 for the OP's project

          Barry E-Remodeler

           

          1. Piffin | Aug 03, 2008 11:03pm | #13

            Yeah, I keep doing that - have a quart of each in the trailer. It is the shellac based I like for stopping bleed. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. User avater
            BarryE | Aug 03, 2008 11:06pm | #14

            now you went and said that word. <g>

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          3. mrfixitusa | Aug 04, 2008 12:25am | #22

            I've always wondered why Kilz oil based primer will not work on exterior applications?http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-152152/Detail

          4. User avater
            BarryE | Aug 04, 2008 12:35am | #24

            they do have a kilz exterior that is oil based, not sure what the difference isto me it's the same as using the zinsser, these are good for spot sealing, though I prefer the shellac based for for sealing, but the primer/sealers don't dry hard enough of give enough hiding coverage for a full prime coat, imo

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          5. Piffin | Aug 04, 2008 12:38am | #25

            http://www.kilz.com/pages/default.aspx?NavID=26There is an exterior formula. I used to use the Kilz original inside or for spot work exterior for fire insurance jobs. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        2. jimblodgett | Aug 03, 2008 11:25pm | #16

          Well ####.  I always thought "tannins" and "natural oils" were interchangable words.  That "tannins" was just a more specific term for the oils in cedar that make it rot resistant.

          I do understand that shellac (I think there's a q in there somewhere) seals to keep knots from telegraphing through paint.

           

            

          1. Piffin | Aug 03, 2008 11:40pm | #17

            OK, I suppose tannins are oilly. I never looked it up - just thought of it as resins in cedar.I think it bleeds because oil mixes with oil, but the shallac lays down a layer of insect poop as a barrier. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. jimblodgett | Aug 04, 2008 12:04am | #18

            "resins"!  There's another one!  I think they all three are intercahngable.  Not? 

          3. Piffin | Aug 04, 2008 12:17am | #20

            well, I just looked up Tannins at Wikki and learned more than I wanted to know but never saw the word oil or resin while there. Think I should go add them?;) 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. wrudiger | Aug 04, 2008 12:11am | #19

            OK, y'all made me go look it up so I wouldn't get any more confused than I already am!  From the manufacturer:

            B-I-N¯  is the original pigmented shellac stain-killing primer-sealer. Great for knots, water stains, fire and smoke damage. Best interior new wood primer. Dries in minutes; recoat in 45 minutes. Seals in tough stains, pet, smoke and fire odors. Great under all topcoats.

            Bulls Eye 1-2-3¯  is a whole house, universal interior/exterior, water-base stain-killing primer-sealer. Excellent adhesion to glossy surfaces, including tile and enameled trim. Low odor and easy-to-apply with great flow and leveling. Breathable, flexible acrylic formula resists blistering and peeling.

            Cover-Stain¯  is an all-purpose oil-base stain-killing primer-sealer. Ideal for interior and exterior applications. Recoat in only one hour. Great for cedar bleed. May be used under any oil-base or water-base topcoat. Convenient 13-oz. aerosol spray is great for spot priming stains.

          5. Piffin | Aug 04, 2008 12:22am | #21

            I've never seen coverstain on the shelves before. Looks like something I would use. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. User avater
            Jeff_Clarke | Aug 04, 2008 08:36am | #28

            Zinnser Cover Stain in a spray is excellent - I used some today.  Don't overspray or it wil tend to run.   Dry time is very fast.

            View Image

            After priming, spray lighting multiple coats to kill any bleed-through - prime again if necessary or finish paint if not - makes an excellent barrier coat.

            Jeff

          7. Piffin | Aug 04, 2008 12:25am | #23

            http://www.zinsser.com/Primerapps.asp 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          8. wrudiger | Aug 04, 2008 12:43am | #26

            Yea, that's the chart I was looking for!  That's what's hanging next to the display at the local old-school hardware store (who does stock the Cover Stain).

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