Anyone have some suggestions for exterior wall sheathing due to the cost of 7/16 OSB $19.00/sheet. We are looking for quality products.
Tim
Could a building code update make your go-to materials obsolete?
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Replies
CDX?
Two weeks ago 1/2" CDX was about a $1 less than OSB in Southern Utah.
Joe H
With the cost of plywood over $20/ sheet, one now has a very good economic incentive to return to board sheathing. I think board sheathing (1x8 run diagonally) is the best sheathing for most residential construction. It is structurally as strong, if not stronger, as plywood, it breathes allowing moisture and gasses from the inside of the house to migrate outside, it is or can be an environmentally sound building material, unlike CDX or OSB, it can be recycled and reused much easier than sheet goods and generally results in less waste when being used. Granted installation labour is more and up until now, material costs were more for boards, than plywood.
I would check into the availability of lumber from a local mill. I am buying 1x8 #3 or better doug fir matched boards @ $425M compared to $20/sheet of 1/2" CDX. My labour cost may double, but I still am ahead cost wise. And I have a better built house
DT,
I agree that is a good option. I once worked for a builder/architect in southern Maine who would not allow sheet goods as sheathing or on roofs.
In my own experience in renovating 200+ year old homes, I often found sound orignial clapboard and framing adjacent to rotted additions sheathed with plywood.
Clampman
I would check into the availability of lumber from a local mill. I am buying 1x8 #3 or better doug fir matched boards @ $425M compared to $20/sheet of 1/2" CDX. My labour cost may double, but I still am ahead cost wise. And I have a better built house
I like that ........would you please elaborate on the cost in terms that I might understand and tell me what your terms mean?
Thanks,
Eric
m= 1000 board ft.
"I think board sheathing (1x8 run diagonally) is the best sheathing for most residential construction. It is structurally as strong, if not stronger, as plywood..."
I don't have anything against board sheathing, but I can't see where there's any way it could be as strong.
Although either is fine for residential work, unless there are seismec codes.Great men are they who see the spiritual is stronger than material force, that thoughts rule the world. [Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Foam. Use some let-in braces for racking, and sheath the house with 1" Dow foam. You'll pick up about an R-5, and pay less for material.
Bob
I like foam board also with plywood for all corners and window areas then I like to foam spray insulation on the inside this really stiffens the structure and does a good job of sound proofing and keeping bugs out.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
tim,
Blackboard. Structual or non. $5-9 a sheet. I like it better than cdx. It's lighter, cuts better, better sound barrier, and it smells good cuz it's made from sugarcane waste down here.
KK
Look at two solutions..
First consider boards as mentioned elsewhere. I buy 1"x6"X8' pine boards for $1.20 each that's $9.60 to cover the 32 sq feet that a sheet of plywood does.. Tons easier to put in place. (I'm a tired old man and I can easily lift a 1x6 in a stiff wind and bang it into place but a 4x8 sheet of plywood is tough!)
the second is to build with SIPS they cost about $2.50 a square foot for a 4 inch panel and a little less than $3.00 a sq.ft. for a 6 inch panel.. Consider all of the 2x4's you won't need and labor savings is serious and when you are finished it's insulated already and you won't ever miss hitting a stud with your sheet rockin'
Has the cost of SIPS risen with OSB?
My last purchase two weeks ago was the same..
I'm thinking of let-in bracing.........abitibi or foam board and log siding........or just all log.......roof... spaced 1x4 boards and metal roofing
I have shingled over 1x oak boards now and the boards are (100 years plus) good as new.
Sub floor I may go with 1x like in the old days.
Todays ply sucks regardless of cost.........back to the future for me.
I'm currently trimming a house that used 1x board sheathing. This house has lots of arch top windows. The owner bought factory extention jambs, the wrong size for 3/4" sheathing. He ran 1x diagonally on the floor. It has shrunk, twisted, cupped and warped. Going diagonal extends the span from joist to joist and the floor is spongy not to mention the loose knots and poor fit. With radiant heat in the floor most hardwood guys will only install with no guarantee. Looks like a more expensive engineered product will be the solution. A 8'x40' wall section takes 10 sheets of 4x8. If OSB costs $16 more per sheet that is an increase in cost of $160. A three person carpentry crew at the low end will cost $120/hr. Can you board a wall faster than sheets in one hour? Don't forget there are a lot more cuts, nails and horizontal boards are not structural, you need bracing. There is a reason we don't do things the "old way". There is more to sheetgoods than just saving labor. OSB replaced CDX due to cost and after proving its integrity. Better check your building codes if using non structural sheets.
One problem that exists today, is the young builder/ carpenter that has little or no experience working with wood. " It's only sheathing" or "I got these boards for next to nothing". Using the proper wood in the proper grading as well as using your head when working with wood can make the difference in the finished product.
As far as sheet goods go, they have there use, but I think sheathing a wall is not one of them, primarily because you end up with the outside of your wall more impermeable than the inside. Another reason for boards is better fastening for siding, especially shingles. But even lap siding, unless you plan to incorporate blocking or additional studs, you end up with nails being held by 1/2"(or less) CDX or even worse OSB.
Though I think your labour dollar is high, for comparison we can use it. 1/2" CDX is say $20/sheet so $200 for material. Boards run $425M or say $140 for the area. Matrial costs then is $60 in favour of boards.
Labour costs are for CDX at $120/hr for 3 man crew. Realistic estimate of 1.5 hours to sheath the wall. $180.
To nail the same wall in boards including cutting the boards @ 45degree, I would estimate would take three hours, but for a two man crew @ $80/hr. $240 for labour. So on a dollar cost, L & M it is the same.
But what about blocking. 8 feet from corners need to be blocked so all seams are nailed to maintain shear. Since most residential walls are measured from the mudsill you end up with a block or two if you run your sheets horizontal.
Also an 8'x 40' wall is fine for comparison except it is unlikely to be found in a house project; more than likely you will find odd lengths and varying heigths that will require possibly more blocking for plywood, but definitely a larger waste factor for plywood.
For me the bottom line has less to do with costs and more to do with a quality product that will last. Unless I absoulutely have to I avoid OSB as I consider it what the manufactorer's consider the trees are that they make OSB from...waste trees. Plywood I have used, but when I design or can specify materials on a job, I will choose 1x8 board sheathing.
walk good
I hope you were talking about me when you said young builder. Not likley since I remember nails coming in wooden barrels and have the tendonitis to prove it. Odd that you find a product that was specifically designed for sheathing to be unacceptable for that purpose. Also suprising that in a time when we are trying to use our forest products more judiciously and have found a way to grow a sustainable and renewable resource you classify those products as waste. I live in New England and if you want to see the old ways at work just drive around here in the fall and watch us pile hay bales against our old homes to keep the winter blast from blowing through our board floors. Some actually wrap the whole house in poly. You think our exterior surfaces should be permeable? Am I guessing right that you don't beleive in house wrap (typar) insulation and vapor barriers? I have watched our magnificient old barns being torn down all my life due mostly to the maintainence needed to keep them alive. The most expensive issue being paint and labor. The permeable walls allow moisture to migrate out through the siding taking the paint with it. You are talking a very expensive job to scrape and repaint a 60' x 100' barn. You can look forward to repeating the process over and over. I wonder why vinyl siding is so prevalent here. I also like your figures. Here in the pine tree state we pay $.59 +/ - a lineal foot for 1" x 8" #4 square edge pine, by the way there is a waste factor with boards you forgot about. Without waste you need 6.62 1x8x8 boards to cover 32sqft at a cost of $33.04 less tax. You think it takes an hour to lay 10 sheets of OSB, well maybe if we had to go to town to pick it up. Could be why you don't charge that much for labor. I also like the little flim-flam work you did by eliminating my third person just when I really need him (her) on the boarding job. You think pine boards have a stronger nail holding capability than OSB or CDX, do your research. #4 does have a few knots and they hold well if you can get the nail in them without knocking them out. Sorry for being flip, I am not telling you how to do your job, just answering the post from my perspective. These are the facts. We first and reluctantly started to eliminate boards on the sub-floor in the 60's. The reason was because the boards warped, shrunk, expanded, curled and twisted, for some reason people don't like squeeky, uneven floors. Maybe it never rains where you frame houses. The plywood was expensive back then but the cost was offset by eliminating labor and call backs. We changed our ways after some kicking and screaming. The first OSB products, aspenite eg. were awful but in time the product became the industry standard because it worked and was inexpensive and quick. I'm talking wood framed, wood sided houses. As far as blocking, if we are talking a standard height wall with the sheathing installed vertically we have full support on all edges as the manufacturer recomends. On the house I mentioned earlier, with the board sheathing, there have been problems. We are only trimming the place. Door jambs and factory extention jambs are not made for 6 13/16" or 4 13/16" walls. You can buy wider extention jambs but you have to rip them to fit. As far as stock exterior doors go, you have to add a small extention that your door latch will pound on and your hinges may hit. The boarded floor is the real problem. This ain't no entry level place. The boards have shrunk and now have gaps between each. Debris has been falling through the cracks and settling on the hot water radiant heat panels. The boards have cupped in places, some knots are missing and a pipe staging leg broke through in one spot. Flooring contractors have expressed reservations (no warrantee) about installing even though this is the "old way". The heat is a big factor but the surface of the sub-floor is wavy gravy. A much more expensive engineered product (not Pergo) seems to be the only one that meets our needs (with warrantee). My point being that there are consequences that must be dealt with if you are not conforming to current building practices. We like to build things that last too, but we also like to build with low maintainence and energy efficiency and with an eye towards conservation and responsible use of our natural materials. I'm sure plumbers are wringing their hands over the plastic tubing that is now the norm in new construction but you can't live in the past and still be competitive in a changing marketplace. Look at British Leyland. I always liked my old eight point Diston D-23 but the only time I use it now is when they let me play in the jug band. I'm still old fashioned if it doesn't cost too much.
Odd that you find a product that was specifically designed for sheathing to be unacceptable for that purpose
From my perspective.......I'd love to lay 3/4 t&g just like always, but something is going on in the making process.............it just ain't no good anymore. It warps/delaminates/mushes up and every other damne thing.
Never liked OSB.......started using it cause the ply sucked..........now they raise the price of the stuff to where I can buy cabinet grade oak for a few dollars more (which still seems to be pretty good by the way)
Ply has a better shear factor........is faster to apply.......... easier to square and put on.........
now if we could just find someone willing to make the stuff properly...................
Nails in a barrel? Man you is a truly old codger if you remember that.........There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
I just removed the mostly rotten wood clapboard (poplar) from our 150+ year old home. Underneath? Solid 1 x 8 T&G sheathing in perfect condition. The house has held up exceptionally well with the sheathing keeping 20' balloon framed walls plumb and true. The house was framed with horizontal 1x with diagonal at the corners. Around here, most of the new homes are built with 1" foam sheathing with OSB at the corners, headers and windows.
Is OSB easier to apply? Well sure it is. Is CDX stronger and more stable than 1x solid wood?Of course.
But to say that 1x material is not a valid or structurally sound sheathing material just doesn't make any sense.
We are currently framing a house (day and a half into it). The main floor interior walls are 9', there are sections taller. We ran the numbers and it makes sense for us to use 10' 7/16" OSB for all the wall sheathing. We have seismic requirements so sheathing isn't an option. We have to do it. We could use 4x8 or 4x9 sheets and block panel edges, but that isn't a good use of time or labor in our opinion.
Double wall construction is superior compared to single wall construction. I think that is obvious and probably doesn't even need to be said. We prefer to sheathe our walls with the sheathing run vertically from the top plates to the mudsill on the first floor. There is very little labor in sheathing the walls when they are on the deck. The resulting product is better built and it looks good from the street.
Have you ever driven by a house where the Tyvek or housewrap was patched on and didn't look very professional? What do you think of that job? We recently framed a house and across the street the siders were installing housewrap. Later when I looked at that house and saw that the Tyvek was perfectly flat, stapled well and had all the correct overlaps and the directions were followed, I was very impressed. It makes me think that that house is well constructed. A clean job invites respect.
We stick frame all our roofs and customers (or potential customers) tell us when they walk through that they feel better about the structure because in their minds it takes craftsman to cut a roof.
That is a big compliment, but more importantly it is product differentiation. I wouldn't sheathe with anything other than a plywood product. We have had incredible success with OSB and we build in the PacNW. Today we got about 2" of rain in the morning alone! Never have had a problem. Not once. I wouldn't want people to drive by a 400K house on a golfcourse and see us sheathing the walls 1x material. I don't believe it gives a good impression. Sometimes a good impression is worth the extra $ for the materials.
Nice to meet another Yankee. I grew up in New England and worked carpentry in Vermont and Maine for some 14 years before I decided to stay west.
I know full well abount banking the house with bales or using pine boughs and snow. Some of those old houses can be quite drafty, but usually the banking was to provide extra insulation for the unheated and uninsulated cellar. Many houses that had both subfloor anf finish floor had floor paper down which substantially cut the air infiltration. Same to be said for the walls.
I am all in favour of sheathing paper (red rosin paper), but not house wrap for reasons I have posted here before. And if you are equating house wrap and vapour barrier as one and the same, I can see nothing but problems in your house's future.
Paint, especially latex is a poor choice for exterior finish. No matter how you prep your materials or build your walls, you are looking at maintainence every few years. There might be some cause and effect from moisture being driven from the interior of the house, but I would not like to live in a house that does not breathe. My house and my health are more important to me than paint. If people need cheap siding, they would be better off sticking with the tried and true felt paper siding rather than go vinyl.
The point I was making, was not that board sheathing is more economical; in fact it is only with the current price increases in sheet goods that it even approaches being similar costs to sheet goods sheathing. But in my opnion it is a superior sheathing for most residential construction.
As far as costs go, I am paying between $400 and $450M for #3 or better pine or doug fir. Yes my labour costs are much lower than yours, averaging about $80/hour for a lead, journeyman and labourer.
"I also like the little flim-flam work you did by eliminating my third person just when I really need him (her) on the boarding job." You stated a three person crew at a rate, I merely used your criteria. However on that hyperthetical wall, and for most sheathing applications, two people is all I use or need. In some cases one person is the most efficient crew size.
"You think pine boards have a stronger nail holding capability than OSB or CDX, do your research. #4 does have a few knots and they hold well if you can get the nail in them without knocking them out." I don not think, I know that even pine will hold nails better than OSB or plywood. And I would not consider a #4 grade suitable for sheathing. I use a #3 or better, better being the key word; with a little culling it could easily be graded #2.
You mention running sheathing vertical, plate to mudsill ? are you using sheets over 9 feet ? Remember in the past, how all the carpentry manuals and manufactorer's specs ran their plywood horizontal and staggered joints? I have not noticed any change in sustance in the plywood; why is it now acceptable to use it vertical? If you refer to the IRC 2000, you will find board sheathing meets all building structural specs that sheet goods will.
Your current project sounds like a problem. Extension jambs can be a problem, but many window and door manufacturers will custom jamb for a slight up charge; certainly less than the cost to do it on site. My walls on my current project are 7-1/4" with 3/4" sheathing and 5/8" drywall...8-11/16" jambs
The other problems especially with the floor... What is your joist spacing? How dry was the sheathing when it was installed? Is it S4S, T&G or rough sawn? Why bother with engineered flooring? I see the solution being a good grade of real hardwood flooring, 2-1/4" or 3" should work fine if the framing is good. Though if the sheathing really is #4 grade pine, I think I would opt more for a 6" or wider plank floor, face fastened to the joists.
"My point being that there are consequences that must be dealt with if you are not conforming to current building practices." And as we are finding out everyday, there are more dire consequences that we need to deal with when we conform to current building practices. Poor quality material, poor design, house designed by our ego than by need, environmental consequences both in practice and material and health with our new building products, these are all issues confronting us today as builders.
"you can't live in the past and still be competitive in a changing marketplace. Look at British Leyland." I use my hand saw(s) quite often on the job as they are often the best tool for the job, and sometimes the quickest way as well. Same with my hammer rather than a nail gun. And I much prefer my 71 Series IIA Land Rover to any new vehicle out there.
walk good