Hi all,
I’m planning my kitchen cabs which I intend on building. I like the look of face-frames over frameless but frameless does provide more space in the cabs … beyond that, I’m interested in knowing if there any pros or cons to either frameless or face-frame construction. Are cabs built with face-frames any easier to install? Somebody at Loews said you have a bit more wiggle room during installation of the cabs if you use face-frames. Not sure what questions to really ask here; just looking for the voices of experience!
Thanks,
Dave
Replies
WRONG! Faceframe cabinets are a b-tch to hang. ZERO wiggle room. Think about it. The cabinet doors are set into a frame which when all is said and done has an equal reveal (space) at all 4 sides. If the cabinet is not square you're screwed. If the cabinet is twisted, you're screwed.....
Just went back to reread your post. YOU'RE building them?! Oh, this is a real treat. Everyone got all over me for discouraging a Poster last week. So, with that in mind - GO AT IT. Make the face frame cabinets yourself. If this is, and your question sounds like it is, your first attempt at building cabinets - faceframe is the way to go. Just think how much you will learn. You will be able to focus on so many precise and tight joints, squaring things up, then moving the cabinets, then squaring things up, then... so much fun. And you'll be able to justify buying many more tools. (Note to self: Buy stock in Dewalt, PC and MilwK)
Ah yes, the joinery, mortising for butt hinges, tooling around with precision squares - all for the first time. Many hours of enjoyment and then double the pleasure when you show it off to your family and friends. I envy you. If only to be young again with that special glint in the eye.
And while you're at it, buy a router! LOL!!
frankie,
Ease up dude. Most face frame cabinets have overlay doors with european hinges which can be adjusted several directions. As to the joinery, there is none. Pocket screws and butt joints are the industry standard and they are quite strong. As to the cases I build mine with dadoes and pocket screws (no hot glue and staples for me) . This makes an extremely strong box ( I use 3/4 veneer ply for the sides and 1/2 for the backs, bottoms, and tops. Makes them a lot easier to install and to keep square. Another trick I use is to buy prefinished maple plywood for the boxes. This saves a ton of finishing time. Then I just add a piece of 1/4 inch ply for any ends of boxes that show. This piece is whatever spieces of wood that the cabinets happen to be. As for raised panel doors they can be done on a router table although a shaper is a much better choice. There are also simpler door styles (read easier to construct) that still look nice.
Mark
Frankie, got a kick out of your post...but what can I say - I gots ambitions and I really want to build em myself.
Thanks for the info-actually, I've studied both the taunton books by tolpin, the levine book and I've looked at a lot of cabinets...no real apprenticeship though so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage.
I'm definitely leaning towards face-frame at this point; I think on the whole, I like the proportions of this style of cabinetry more than frameless...
Follow-up question: When you join two face-frame cabinets together, I'm assuming that the face-frames overhang the outside edge of each case and butt against each other. So you're not screwing together the cases but the face-frames only. Is that the case generally?
Or would it be better if, say, you were joining three cabs together in a row, to build one large face-frame and install it after you've installed, plumbed, leveled the cabs in their final resting place? What approach do you use?
Thanks again for your advice,
Dave,
You are correct in that the face-frames overhang the cabinet box and are screwed to each other. HOwever in my case I also screw the box to the frame with pocket screws drilled in the box. Just clamp the frame onto the box and run in the screws. Any screws that are visible are then covered with the 1/4 inch plywood skin that I mentioned before. This is not necessary on most cabinets as in the typical kitchen most are butted against another cabinet. Only the end units are visible. As to building multiple boxes and single frames I generally don't do that except in special instances. As to the post saying a toe kick isn't necessary, he is correct.When I have a run of cabinets I usually just build them short , build one box toekick high on the floor and mount them on that. Or you can use levelers as Tolpin does. I tend to overbuild my boxes but I have never had one pull off of the wall either. It is not rocket science. Actually it is easier than many other types of woodworking. However if you don't have a good table saw preferably with a sliding table then forget it. You will drive yourself nuts before it is over. Good luck.
Mark
Mark and CAG -
Can you say Humor? I got so pounded last time that I thought this Post would be fun. I guess it was lost in the subtlety (sp?). Dave should be commended for his courage. The only "truth" in what I wrote is that we all should learn to walk before we run. In simpler terms - learn how to build a box before you attempt to embellish it with a frame and doors and then hanging.
Most at this forum are full of encouragement and recommend "How To" do stuff. Great! This is always welcome. However, sometimes (read most) it is just as valuable to be made aware of the pitfalls. Not in terms of "you're an idiot to even try", but to be made aware that when you encounter screw-ups you're aware that others have been there too and you were forwarned so don't stress about it. Stop, think, understand and solve. Maybe even come to the Site and tell Us that you're at "this" point.
Dave -
Each cabinet "stands" on its own. Therefore it has its own faceframe. Then they are all screwed together. If the FF overlaps by a 1/4", I use a 1/4" piece of ply to be sandwiched between the cabinets at the rear of the side. Sometimes it's easier to use shims. I do the same at the front. I never screw though the FF to another FF, but maybe that's just me.
All -
If anyone has any issues with my approach, I've already heard it and let's not waste space rehashing old news.
Frankie,
Going to ignore your last request :)
I agree people should be fully informed on the pitfalls of any project before taking on something they have never done before, sorry I must have mis-interpreted what you were getting at in referecnce to the other thread.
Take it easy
CAG
Hey prof,
Personally I hate the Euro hinges. My teens snap them off about 1 every 3 months. Plus the heavy use doors (garbage bag door) rattles loose. I find myself with a nose full of coffee grounds and a short handle philips every 6 months.
I'm building a house full of cabinets and they will all be stamped steel (or brass)traditionals. No more pot metal. I need maintenance like a kick.
Everything else makes sense.
Consider making the face frames with lap joints. Dado the back or the front let design considerations be your guide. The joint is incredibly strong and easier to do than a mortice & Tenon. You still have to make a couple on the exterior corners but that is easy to do.
Booch,
Depends on the quality of the hinges that you use. It don't pay to use cheap hinges. As to the lap joint I find that pocket screws do a great job and are a heck of a lot easier to make. REmember that cabinets are not heirloom furniture. Pocket screws make a very strong joint without using traditional techniques. I'll save those for my reproductions. Have a good one.
Mark
Anyone can build a box......what's the intended finish?
I say......no to both idea. No to the build and no to the install. I'm betting you can build them just fine....and can only apply a sub par finish. Tough to compete with a factory finsh.....unless you are applying a pre-catalized finish. How ever that's spelled! Kitchen cab's should have a tough finish. A tough finish is tough to apply in a garage shop. You got a spray booth?
I advise against the self install too....because I get paid to install cab's....and if I told everyone they should install their own.....I'd be outta work!
I say......buy some nice Welborne boxes and pay me to install them!
And I'll screw thru the face frames to make sure they're tight and stay that way!
I'll also add a 1/2 in shim at the back so I can set a whole run and not have the face frames break off.
I like the idea of building a whole run........setting the whole run.....and attaching one long face frame. The more you screw together first and set as one unit..the better.
Not only with the plumb and level.....but also keeping the front edge in line....which shows up on bad installs as wavy when the counter top is set. Seem's lotsa people forget about that last part.....and I think that's one of the more obvious flaws. When need be....I'll set the bottom corner cab's....and run a string line across...shimming out so the front's even......very important if that run has a sink base and an opening for a DW. Or...the run where the stove's to go.
Nothing's square...but don't worry too much about drywall corners....that's what utility knives and hammers are for! You gonna look back there after it's all screwed tight? Cut it up...smash it out.....get the cab's to line up perfect...a little drywall patch never hurt no one.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I don't even know where to start...
True about the finish unless he's got a good spray set up he will(or should) hire out the finishing portion
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
I think, with face frame cabinets, a brushed finish looks best. Alkyd paint, satin. The brush stroke softens the visuals. Very Nice!
If you're going to spray nothing beats a pre-catalyzed finish.
Both methods require hands-on knowledge and experience. Very little book learning here beyond ratio's, mixing and stirring.
w/o a spray booth.... it's doable, I just sprayed 13 cabs with nitro. I lucked out on thursday, temp got up to high 60's, did them outside. Friday, cold, like 35. It went like this:
Turn up thermostats to 70, (2 cieling hung gas heaters, in two seperate garage bays, partition between them, I figgered the fumes would hang low, heavier then air)
raise one door 3 feet, turn on fan blowing outside(fan positioned in front of door)
spray cabinet (on dolly)
open door to other bay, roll cabinet into "fresh air bay". Close door.
repeat.
Man, that lacquer sure is fast. But here it is sunday, and it still kind of stinks in there.
I know its do able they do it all the time. What I was getting at is that a lot cabinent makers /carps who build cabs around here will out source the finishing portion of the cab work. I saw this guy one time who works with the wifes cousin custom make a stain. The cousin needed some staining done. Called this over to his house showed him a picture of the color that he wanted his cabs done and this guy mixed it pefectly right one the spot. It was incredible. then the wifes cousin who is a paint shot the cabs with laquer (the cabs were already installed) and they came out great. He told me that is how the company he works for does it. A customer will order the cabs and they will stain and finish them in place to the customers satisfaction.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
" I just sprayed 13 cabs with nitro."
What is nitro?
"Man, that lacquer sure is fast. But here it is sunday, and it still kind of stinks in there."
Now Im assuming you are talking about black lacquer as in" nitro" ? I speak that language if that what you meant.
Tim Mooney
Ya gotta watch your language.. Terms vary thruout the country. I was up in Michigan and they were gonna 'BUTTER' the drywall. And to them I was a cupboard maker not a cabinetmaker. I guess I will go 'FINISH' some drywall.
Nitro = Nitrocelulous (sp.) Laquer
nitrocellulose lacquer. The fast part I was commenting on how fast this stuff drys, you'd think the aroma would disappear after 1 1/2 days, (I spritzed the stuff indoors).
"If you're going to spray nothing beats a pre-catalyzed finish."
Except a post-catalysed finish. cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
"Except a post-catalysed finish. "
twas thinking the same, when I read that.
Well that post thing threw me for a sec, never tried to catalyze after I sprayed. <g>
Barry
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Barry E
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Conversion varnish........... What's that?
Conversion varnish would fall into the same catergory as catalyzed lacquer, they both require a catalyst. More accurately, they are both conversion varnishes.
And they are both much more durable than a pre-cat.
Barry
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Barry E
Barry,
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Edited 1/12/2003 8:38:30 PM ET by Joe Fusco
Joe
I have to disagree....nobody knows more than you & I <g>
I do agree that conversion varnish would be more durable than catalyzed lacquer.
My understanding is that catalyzed lacquer is a conversion varnish that has nitrocellulose lacquer added to speed drying. And they both require an acid catalyst to react.
Barry
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Barry,
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I think that's basically correct, although I don't think it's nitro in there now....it's usually classed as a conversion varnish, but it's modified. I've used both, within the same line, and they basically have the same chemistry I'm told.....same catalyst. The post-cat dries more quickly, but the conversion varnish is tougher and has more chemical resistance. Dry time is slow enough to allow lots more dust to get into the finish though...only reason I don't use it more.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
I guess the pocket screws will work. Much as any method of construction there are comfort zones we fall into. Best is what works for you.
In my case I rip all the face frame stock (2" x 3/4 or so) and have it laying about.
Then Mark them to length and cross cut with the same table saw & blade
The top & bottom rails are full width (dependant on the corner treatment)
The verticals underlap the top & bottom rail.
I lay the cabinet carcass on its back & mark the top & bottom rail intersections with the verticals. I clean up the lines with a square. Putting an x on the side to dado.
I change the blade depth to 1/2 of the 3/4 " thickness and blaze away at the x marks.
Glue it together and clamp it to the carcasses. (not glued to the carcass yet)
After it dries I hit it with the sander to level the inconsistencies of the joint.
Next day put in a few dowel pins for locating and then glue the frame TO the carcass. Clamping but generally driving in a few finish nails to acquaint the materials.
Generally the carcass is plywood or melamine particle board so I'm not really concerned with the strength of the frame to carcass joint. It's always held. Plus style will dictate a new facing in the future so why get nutsy over it.
It just works for me and I like to hear a tablesaw whine. Dado cuts in a lap joint are relaxing for me. Now if you are into making a buck and glue time is a problem then pocket screws may be the method. Glue is no more than putty there. Biscuits you still have to wait for the glue.
Booch,
Pocketscrews are the industry standard and I love 'em. However that is because they work. Hot glue and staples seem to be the industry standard as well but I think it's a lousy way of building a box. Whatever works.
Pocket screws are the industry standard? Well, O.K., if you say so. They are certainly the standard for those in a hurry. I can set dowels as tight as a Krieg pocket jig can do pocket screws and I prefer to sell my customers what they pay for. No offense.. I just think my customers deserve what they pay for... Oh yeah, they pay and they talk too. I'm working so I guess the talks not all bad.
No one,
If you are trying to convince me that dowels are better than screws you've got a long way to go. With a dowel you have very little glue suface on one side of the joint simply because when you drill a hole at right angles to the grain(which is what you are doing when you join two pieces at a right angle as in a face frame) most of the hole is nothing but endgrain. END GRAIN IS NOT A GLUE SURFACE, PERIOD. I have seen too many chairs tables etc. that were put together with dowels and are falling apart. A face frame doesn't have nearly the strain placed upon it that a chair of table would so you may get away with dowels but don't try to say they are better.
If you really want a super strong joint the use a mortise and tenon joint. The point is that pocket screws are plenty strong. I have purposely broken some of them apart. I can assure you that it takes some effort and the wood will split first. As for them being the industry standard go check out most factory cabinets and that is what you will find. It is one of the few things that Kraft maid and the like do right. I also use pocket screws to assemble my boxes because hot glue and staples don't get it as far as I'm concerned. Also glue is just about worthless to join plywood at right angles because once again the joint is mostly endgrain.
Mark
I know, I was just stirring the pot. LOL. As you mention, joinery in face frames is less critical then with furniture such as chairs, etc. Pocket screws do work well and they sure make ornaments out of all of those long clamps. Mortise and Tennon joints are pretty much gone these days when it comes to face frames. On occasion I will use them if business is slow or if I have money in the time bank. The customer will never know the difference so it really doesn't make good dollar sense.
I've yet to have a dowled face frame come apart on me but I have gone as far as to strengthen them with a brad pinned through the dowel on either side from the back.
Edited 1/13/2003 3:04:49 PM ET by no one
I'd like to hear some more about this conversion varnish.
Here's a starting point. If the link doesn't work right, search under 'conversion varnish'. Careful; some people use the term interchangeably with post-cats, and they're somewhat different, in my opninion anyway.
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi#referencecabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Does varnish build in layers like polyurethane, or melt the underlying coat(s) like lacquer? What about VOCs? Am I right in thinking varnish is solvent based, or are there water-borne varnishes now?
If we were sitting around on sawhorses sipping coffee I'd look around, so please, anyone with an opinion feel free to say something.
Jim,
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Jim,
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Excellent book. Another one you might be interested in is "The Painters Manual; A guide to Professional Wood Painting" by Ambrosi and Offredi ...translated from Italian. Covers clears and pigmented finishes. Just got it so I can't say too much yet, but it looks good; technical, and professional.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Adrian,
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Well, the reason I asked about the layered/disolve issue was that's the one thing that has kept a can of lacquer on my shelf for all this time - the clarity you get when one layer disolves the preceeding layer(s) to form one coat.
But if you're talking a finish that builds in layers, I am gonna keep experimenting until I get it right with water-borne products. Easier to use, safer, less brain and organ damage - I've cheated the hangman too many times already - just tempting fate to not be careful at this age.
Joe is correct, the catalysed finishes don't burn in like nitro lacquer, they build in layers....but there is some chemical bonding between the layers if it's within a certain time window....it's not fusing multiple layers into one, like with nitro or shellac, but there is a bond. Outside that window (when the crosslinking process is complete or almost complete......it can take a long time for the last little bit of crosslinking to occur), you have to rely pretty much on the mecahnical bond that sanding provides....the finish can 'key' into the scratches.
Varnish is a pretty generic term; it seems to be applied to any clear coating, solvent or water based. In fact, I think a lot of the terms still used in woodfinishing are archaic, and muddy the waters ('conversion varnish' is a good example; I think the majority of people use it as a sysnonym for post-catalysed finishes, and really they are two similar but different products). Like, for instance, most of us here will loosley use the term 'lacquer' for the stuff we spray on cabinets; walk into a body shop supplier and mention lacquer, and they'll look at you as if you had two heads....they talk in terms of acrylics, urethanes, etc, and it's much more precise. Same resins in woodfinishing, but the terms we use are more confusing.
VOC's and HAP's; everyone is working on reducing them; usually what they do are swap in a chemical that isn't on the list, but is similar, for one that is on the list....then they have to work on performance issues. I'm told there is basically no R & D going on with solvent based finishes now, definitely not in the Euro manufacturers who develop and license a lot of the products we use. They're working on waterbased exclusively. I was one of the pioneers of waterbased (from the manufacturer I usually use), in this area....it's tons better than it was, but there are certain things that are a pain. And because, durability wise, a good waterbased 'lacquer' is only as good as the best pre-cats (according to the company chemists), I'm using post-cats again as well.
Joe;
The reason I use post-cats rather than pre-cats (I've used lots of both), is because there really is a big step up in performance from pre- to -post.....better wear resistance, and much better chemical resistance. Adding the catalyst in is no big deal (dipsosing of unused product is a problem though). And no shelf life issues; 6 months is what they say for a pail of pre-cat once it's opened, then the chemical resistance starts to drop dramatically. Depends how much you use, but I used to have to stock (when I ran a company with a busy spray booth), clears, blacks, whites, all kinds of custom tints....it's expensive, and if it's sitting their going off....
The hierarchy as I see it is:
precats and waterbased....relatively easy to use and store, good results
post-cats....better performance, have to deal with unused product and you have to do the catalysing yourself (it's possible to screw up)...no shelf life issues
conversion varnish; better yet performance, higher build, slower dry times
polyesters and industrial polyurethanes (catalysed); ultimate performance in a lot of ways, sometimes requires very expensive equipment to do it right, sometimes requires a lot of post-polishing...not easy, but sometimes used in small shops. This is what I'd be using if I was finishing pianos or conference tables.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
10-4
What about combining frameless with face-frame? Specifically, why can't you make face frames that overhang the exterior sides of the cabinet by whatever amount suits you aesthetically. Make the insides of the face frame flush with the inside of the carcase so that you can fully take advantage of the frameless hardware and space-savings inside the cab.
Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?
Dave
Yes that would seem a good thing but there are two things you miss out on.
1. is the FF has that slop or overlap of the cabinet. That slop is what allows you to scribe the overlap and meet up with the non plumb wall (or if it is plumb then allows a snug fit)
2. I think the savings of a Frameless is that you can edge band the cabinet. That edge banding is quick and cheap if you have the equipment to do it quickly & cheaply.
But point 2 is my supposition as I am currently in the traditional FF camp, and don't really understand the frameless that clearly. Hopefully there is other color to this idea.
It seems that I struggle to understand a construction method (frameless today)and then when the moment of epiphany comes I "own" that. After coming to that understanding, work is faster/better than ever before. Any change after that point is with that same waterfall of understanding. RTC (resistance to change) seems to afflict me more as I get longer in the tooth. As every sales seminar ever told me "For someone to change their mind they have to be shown some facts they did not previously consider" This is a paraphrase of course, but it serves to show why we haunt this and other sites. New facts help us to reduce the resistance to change & growth.
That's how I build cabinets.
Carcases are made out of 3/4" ply, and adjacent cabinets are separated by a half-inch spacer. That results in adjacent cabinets having a 2" wide vertical face frame stile between them, with the edges of the face frame stile being flush with the inside face of the cabinet's carcass.
I assemble my boxes, place them, then install the face frame on-site. A run of cabinets will have full-length run top and bottom rails, and yes, the end carcasses are held from the walls so the dog-eared end stiles can be scribed to the adjacent walls.
The face frame stiles and rails usualy have a beaded edge, and the door/drawer fronts are almost allways fully inset.
With the face frame being flush with the inside face of the cabinet, drawer slides are screwed right to the carcass without having to be built out to clear the face frame.
Hinges are the rub. The desire is to use traditional hinges instead of cup hinges. Not a real bear, but the lack of adjustablility of a cup hinge is missed. Again, all that's needed is precision in layout.
Still, with 2" thick cabinet "walls" between djacent cabinets, while the inside of each box is clean, the thicker walls result in a net loss of usable space inside the entire run of cabinets when compared to euro-style or non-face frame cabinetry.
Personal preference? I prefer FF by a WIDE margin over non-FF. Also, in new construction or in a full remodel where there is a bit more freedom in design, I prefer deeper base cabinets, 28-30" deep.
I agree with you and I'm looking forward to building cabinets with the face frame "look" but with the europeant (mostly) space. I'm not sure I understand your statement about hinges. Why not just go with Euro hinges that allow full inset doors? Or are you saying you prefer the look of traditional hinges?
Dave
You've got it, Dave...mosty colonial, and a fine looking butt is often desired.
That's exactly how I build framed cabinets; so do lots of other shops. In fact there are a lot of shops and factories now that are now building 32 mm boxes....traditionally only used for frameless....and then adding a frame if required.
Mongo; there is a hinge available that looks like a traditional loose pin butt hinge from the outside, but on the inside, it has a lot of the adjustability of a Euro hinge: you can move the door up and down, sideways, and at an angle if you need to. They don't have the feel of a really first rate butt hinge (only available not at great expense), but they're pretty good. I agree with you; I like beaded inset face frames also (but not more than well designed frameless). I rarely have either the space available or the budget, though.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Adrian,
Thanks for the info. My hardware shop has them, but the line they had on display only had polished chrome and polished brass. The guys behind the counter were not very enthusiastic about them. I fnd a larger selection, but the same tepid reaction from a mail order store that I've ocasionally used (Woodworkers Hardware).
Do you have a source/manuufacturer that you're happy with, one that you could pass along?
The butt hinges I use run between $11-$18USD a pair. Brushed pewter or an antique bronze seem to be the two most commonly asked for colors.
Good to see your name, best of health and happiness to the family.
The ones I've used were just fine, considering....they're not the equal of good butt hinges well set, at all, but they do a good job. I'll look into suppliers. If I could sell all the bad advice I've been given by guys behind a hardware desk, I'd be rich. As far as the finish goes, I'll have to check (I have a few in the shop); usually, if I don't like the factory finish, you can soak it off in laquer thinner and get to something better.
Regards to you and yours also.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Refinishing brass is an intrigueing idea...
For my own gain I'd like to learn to do that. I have a house full of doors with solid polished brass, laquered, egg-shaped doorknobs (and brass hinges), and I would much prefer something more muted, along the ideas of a dark, mottled, antique bronze look.
I may have to do some on-line searching as well as digging through the stacks at the library to see if I can come up with some refinishing ideas.
With iinspiration comes yet another thing to add to the "to do" list.<g>
Frankie,
I'm not trying to be confrontational by any means, but why discourage people from trying something for the first time, If nobody tried anything new how would we be able to learn and become more skilled at what we do or would like to learn?
One thing kinda neat about frameless over face frame........in the future if you want an entirely different look to your kitchen, all you gotta do is make new door and drawer fronts. You can go from plastic laminate doors to raised panel doors in a couple of hours.
Frameless cabinets are a lot easier too. You can make the boxes out of birch plywood or MDF.......and veneer the front edges with pvc, plam or veneer. Don't make the cabinets with toe kicks........make a toekick the whole length of the run of cabinets, level it up, screw it to the floor, then plop the boxes down , on the toekick, then screw them together. You can purchase custom raised panel doors, in all kind of sizes, styles and wood species from a few different mfgs......this is where I get them from http://www.conestogawood.com/. There's a lot of adjustment with euro style hinges too...I use Blum........Blum drawer slides too!
jocobe
Dave, the reason someone would say face frame cabinets are easier to hang and have more wiggle room is because the face frame typically overhangs the sides of the box by a quarter inch so when you're installing the first cabinet that goes against the wall you need only get the face frame tight against the wall. Since the cabinet box will then be a quarter inch away from the wall you avoid a potential problem where the mud is built up an eighth inch or so back in the corner. I've never hung a frameless cabinet but this non-square corner is where is where the swearing would start. I've hung a million (okay, not quite) face frame cabinets and I'm telling you it's trained monkey work. Find the studs, drill corresponding holes in the cabinet backs and screw them to the wall, then clamp the face frames of two adjoining cabinets together. Face frames of each cabinet are normally 1 1/2 inches wide. I predrill with an appropriate sized pilot bit, usually 1/8 or 9/64, through the first face frame and into the second, far enough to accomodate a 2 1/2 inch screw. Then drill ONLY through the first face frame with a 3/16 inch bit with a countersink. I set mine so the bit just reaches through the first face frame when I reach the proper depth of countersink.
As far as making face frame cabinets and cutting things square, all you need is a miter saw that will cut square. Even the crappiest and oldest miter saws still cut pretty damn square in the factory set positive stop. I recommend using a pocket joint to join your face frames. Most cabinets I see are joined this way. Its strong and is as accurate and reliable and fast as any other method. Biscuit joining face frames is not as easy as it seems like it must be. Anyway, you could purchase what you need to make pocket holes much cheaper than buying a biscuit joiner. Keep in mind when you're designing your cabinets that you have something solid across the back that you can screw through to attach to the wall. As in something more that just 1/4 inch ply. Add a 3 inch or so strip of 1/2 inch ply at the top and bottom that is securely enough attached to the cabinet that it will hold it.
Sorry this is long winded but I sensed you wanted an actual answer, not sarcastic whining! (Frankie!) Good luck and post again or email me if you have any more questions.
Edited 1/10/2003 12:00:05 AM ET by Capperjohn
The mental clouds are clearing fast! Thanks so much for your many perspectives that are helping me triangulate on the construction of my cabs.
Capperjohn mentioned the use of a sliding table on the table saw; I spent a day and a half last week making a sliding table based on the Guy Perez design in fine woodworking. It was easy to build and works beutifully. Absolutely square panels (up to 36'' crosscut) and sooooo smooth running on those skateboard bearings! He is absolutely right-it really doubles the usefullness of the saw.
Anyway, I understand about the 1/4" overhang of the face-frame on the outer edge of the cab. And that you screw through from one cab face-frame to the other. Are others (like Frankie) also adding a corresponding 1/4" shim to the rear-side of the cab and screwing through that into the adjoing cab side. Sounds like a good idea to me...
Capperjohn,
Read your post once again and I have just one question/clarification: I understand that the first cab that, say, butts a wall, should overhang the exterior of the cab to allow for scribing to the wall. Now, should adjoining cabinets that are butting each other also overhang a 1/4" or so? Or should their face-frames be flush with the outside edge of the cabinets they are attached to?
Thanks once again,
Dave
I make each face frame with a 1/4" scribe. I like the suggestion of shimming in between adjoining cabinets. I did some kitchen cabinets about a year ago that butted into a wall that was 3/8" out of plumb and not very straight for the first 36" off the floor. The beauty of custom work was that I made that part of the face frame with a 1/2" scribe since molding was not going to be installed. The floor was out of level in one section by 3/4" over the 24" depth of a base cabinet. This cabinet had a side exposed and again no base trim was going to be used. I don't build a separate base and attach boxes (I would if building cabs on site), so instead of a 4" high toe kick notch, I added 3/4" to allow for scribing.
I'm not trying to add to the complexity of first time cabinet building, but making these measurements before building them can make installation easier. Good luck.
Dave , My idea is to make the boxes and hang them . then make your face frames in one whole section. As if you had only one long box. You are doing this for yourself and time is not the object. I did that on a set for my old house and built the frames onthe cabinet . I used half lap joints . Did the horizontals first and glued them to the box ,and screwed them in the recess. then I glued on the vertical . That way there are no joints in your frames between boxes .
Frankie, We all learn somthing here . I was glad to see that you learned to encourage the readers . 'Bout fell outa my chair , most folks take so much longer to catch on that this forum is to help and not hinder ;-]
Dave,
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Edited 1/10/2003 9:01:39 AM ET by Joe Fusco
Joe's right (again) 1/4" + 1/4" = 1/2" Therefore 1/2" spacer.
Note: This will mean the underside of the cabinets will have a 1/2" gap between adjacent cabinets and thus, for looks, will require a 1/4" panel to span the full undercabinet length. So, again, there's more work.
Cabinet Making:
1. Everyone is telling you that, FF or not, you will need to make everything square. They are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, the world where the cabinets are being installed doesn't care how well you made them. Keeping everything square is a job installers get paid LOTS of $$$ for.
2. In "my world" FF means inset doors. This where my concern is, rather than FF or not. I apologize for the confusion. However, when doing FF with overlay doors you will have the issue of equal reveals between doors and FF/ carcass. Euro hinges make dealing with this easier. With frameless Euro style cabs with overlay doors, since the doors almost butt against each other, a world of errors can be camoflaged/ hidden. Bottom line: Frameless cabinets with overlay doors are more forgiving than FF and overlay doors and inset doors - framed or not.
3. If you want butt hinges - that's another post and can be found at Knots. You have posted this topic at Knots, right?
4. Use biscuits along the FF edges to facilitate registration of adjoining cabinet faces.
Installation:
1. I don't care where your walls are or who built/ finished them. They are NOT plumb, square to other walls/ ceilings and dead balls flat. When you screw the carcasses to the wall the cabinets WILL twist regardless of how strong and/ or square you made them. (Have plenty of shims handy.) The longer the cabinet run, the more pronounced a minute error will become. I've been doing this for 17 yrs and I am still learning "tricks" to keep me from throwing a hammer through a wall.
2. When newbies are installing for the first time and are doing it out of choice rather than need, they tend to obsess on perfection everywhere. Take it slow and don't overstep your abilities without forgiving yourself when you want to throw a hammer. Each time you stumble you will have found something new to learn.
Other:
1. It is my recollection that Dave did ask for opinions AND advice. I quote Dave's initial Post: "I'm interested in knowing if there any pros or cons... Are cabs built with face-frames any easier to install? ... just looking for the voices of experience!" I have both and, along with a bit of humor, offered them to him, for him to do with as he pleased. There was no malice - "venomous" or otherwise - intended.
2. For those of you who are not interested in anyone elses opinions or only want to only read "encouraginging how to's" and not be apprised of pitfalls, difficulties and dangers, I cannot help you other than suggest you click the icon which censors/ deletes my Posts from your eyes.
Dave, I would love to hear about your learning curve and where you get stumped during fabrication and/ or installation.
I'm done.
Edited 1/10/2003 12:39:11 PM ET by Frankie
Edited 1/10/2003 12:45:15 PM ET by Frankie
Edited 1/10/2003 12:49:34 PM ET by Frankie
Why should this be posted at Knots? We usually save the hard stuff for them, you know, like routing an edge on a few boards.
Oh, sorry you think your world is so complicated, good luck with that. ;-) <<< see the freaking smiley thing?
FYI - it is posted over at knots. The responses are pretty similar.
I Made mine (yes I built them all by my little ol self) :) But why not make a modified euro cab? I made my FF 1 1/2 wide PH the FF to one then attach the other cab screw the 2 cabs together then screw the ff to the other cabs with ph(that was for a very short run of Upper cabs) . But I made the rest traditional F/F used Euro hinges Compact 90s are the bomb, and built overlay doors (Yea Frankie I built the doors to). They make a euro hinge for in set doors t be used on f/f cabs also but I cose not to use them.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
Frankie,
I think where you got into trouble with some of us was not in attempting to advise Dave of the pitfalls but in assuming he would use inset doors. I realize that you work for a lot of people who have the money for those type of custom cabinets and as such inset doors are your frame of reference when you think of FF cabinets. However most FF cabs. use overlay doors. I did pick up on your attempts at humor but felt in view of what I already mentioned that some other viewpoints were in order. Just some clarification. BTW how are you doing in straightening out the mess caused by the cancelation of the project you mentioned a while back? Did you ever get your money? Have a good one.
Mark
OMG, was he the one with the bad contract for a house, and the client died and handed his arse to him?
If so, thank you Frankie. I was just about to write a simple contract for simple minds, and I would have been exposed to be reamed.
I wasn't going to reply, but this is so much fun. Here goes:
Qtrmeg - My World is not complicated. It's just not perfect. Doing things well requires knowledge and receiving information is best done WITHOUT a filter. If one knows the issues ahead - good or bad - he/ she can anticipate and not get discouraged because they know someone else has been there too.
Ron T - Congrats. You made your own cabinets. I knew you could. I know Dave can too. I never said Don't! I did say Do, but if you do, these are the difficulties you'll have. Forwarned is forarmed. And I had a little fun/humor in doing it. Appearently we do not share the same sense of humor. Oh well.
Professor - I reread my first post, Post #2, and I stated there that the assumption I was proceeding with was: FF = inset doors. Later in Post #20 I apologized for this assumption. These two points have been overlooked by most. Nothing I can do about it now. I can't tell people how to think and read. Only, how I, think and read. We all misread and think incorrectly every so often. Like I stated above, I don't live in a perfect world.
One last point on this topic: Viewpoints other than mine are always in order. That is what makes this, an exchange of ideas. A discussion would be better, however the delay between posts and the complexity of most topics inhibits a rapid back and forth exchange which face to face and telephone relationships have. The Posting excercise unfortunately lends itself to monologues with intermitant questions. I will try to be more sensitive to that - but not as sensitive as Ron T ...Har, har, har, har, har,har, har.....
As for the outcome of my project cancellation financial resolution. We have the Big Pow Wow tomorrow at 11am. Thank you for asking. I'll let you know how it turns out. I am thinking good thoughts. Yes Qtrmeg, I can think good thoughts...Har, har, har, har, har,har, har.....
Edited 1/10/2003 6:38:07 PM ET by Frankie
Good luck guy, I wasn't kidding you saved my arse. I was going to be a nice guy for an old client and then I read that thread about your issue.
Lessen learned, and I owe you one.
Be good.
Frankie,
I answered your first post which is when I told you to lighten up. You are correct that the delay between posts sometimes causes problems. As to your meeting tomorrow, I hope it goes very well for you. You deserve to be compensated fairly for your time and in view of the fact that it left you out in the cold so to speak, without any work going on. Sometimes customers seem to think that you can just sell a job out of thin air(when you need one) but just ain't so, as you well know. I wish you the best.
Mark
for what it's worth Frankie : I think you are getting a bum wrap on the "negativeness" of your original post. I do many things from automotive engines to furniture and have different levels of experience in both : when I ask a question I do not want to be patronized (I can get that on some of the "how to " programs : in 20 years of auto work the most important skill I've learned is how to take things apart when they are held together by corrosion AND NOT BUST THEM UP: don't you love when "Sam and Dave" remove bolts on 15 yr old truck springs with a hand ratchet? : RIGHT!!!)
One of my favourite quotes " good judgement comes from experience , and most of that experience comes from bad judgement"
When I ask a question I want someone to pass along the "real world" experience they have and by and large it comes from the mistakes they have made. Tell me the pitfalls any day : then I can go in with my eyes open.
Ah frakie couldnt tell if you was joshng or not. Normally if someone is joshing they would put a <G> or a :) something let folks know its a joke.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
Opinions are like buggers. Everyone has them. Just pick the ones you like.
Frame-less cabs are definitely harder to install, usually takes two guys. Where as face-frame cabs can be installed solo. Also, if you have older construction the wall variance could pose a lot of problems with the frame-less.
Don8519 (KDA Cabinate Installer)
When you're ready to attach the face frames of adjoining cabinets together, try to get a pair of "Cabinet Claw" clamps. They'll hold the faces flush and tight together, and have a hole in each one to drill a pilot for your screws, then swing the plastic guide aside, and drive your screws home. Or use these clamps to hold the frames in place while you drill pocket holes to attach them.
I started using the "Rocket" pocket screw jig instead of dowels about 6 mos ago to build face frames, it's a thing of beauty
Cabinets are just boxes, and the hardest part is cutting the pieces out, which can be done with a Skilsaw and a straight edge that clamps down, just measure and cut real carefully.
You can buy enough oak plywood to make 2 base cabinets, with the money you'd use to buy 1 cheapie at H.D.
Jen
PS If it would help to see first hand how simply they are put together, look at some of the cheap birch faced cabinets at Lowe's...real elementary stuff...
Whatever works!
Edited 1/10/2003 12:43:30 AM ET by Jencar
Dave, the decision to go frame or frameless (traditional vs. european) is more one of a design decision than anything else. European frameless styling is more modern but the traditional frame style has certainly stood the test of time. In some schools of thought the traditional style is considered to be a furniture grade cabinet whereas the frameless are considered economical solutions with space optimization and cost being the incentives.
We are now starting to design and install a combination of the two styles. The use of a frame cabinet with european style hinges is becoming popular as well as frameless cabinets with raised panel doors, crown molding, etc. The big box stores sell cabinets that have a lot of built in flexibility and since they produce them in large quantities they tend to be far less expensive. My suggestion would be to look at those resources very closely before taking on building your own.
Cabinet making is not difficult work if you have the right tools and equipment. Without them, you'll find yourself in headache city very quickly.
I have just started a set of cabinets which are face frame. Pocket holes are used to hold the face frame together and biscuits to the boxes. The doors will overlay. I could have went frameless but as mentioned it is a matter of personal taste and I perfer FF. Allmost all cabinets are now made out of presto logs with a photo finish of real wood. Such crap. I prefer to make my own even though I am not a cabinet maker by trade and to discourage one from trying make them is pointless. I always thought this site was to get advice and not opinions and after we change to the new version I thought the site might change from venomus response to helpful and informative response but somethings never change. Best of luck and let me know if your succesfull. Post some pictures.
When you start measuring you check to see how square your walls are so you can put enough material on your face frame so you can scribe it to the wall on each end so it will balanced.
Lets say the back wall is 10 ft and the wall at the front of cabinets are 9 - 10 you know you can't build a set of cabinets that are 10 ft.
The same goes for plum check it out. Who nows you may have Red Green or one of his trainees as the carpenter that built your home.
Dave for the uppers you can use a french clete to hang the cabs ..pretty easy and fool proof method also I made my cabs a tad short of the length of the kitchen . I didnt really worry about scribing them to the walls. I left about a 1/8-1/4 space from the cab to the wall and made a small thin piece of material out of the same material I made the cabs same stain and finish ect and glued it to the F/F to hide the gap to the wall.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........