Started a deck facelift today. Tore off the fir decking and cedar railings this morning and will replace with Weatherbest decking, AZEK trim and cedar railings. I was amazed and educated by some of the damage I saw on this deck. Approx 80% of the 30 galvy hangers had rotted/corroded to the point where the “saddle” or part that the joist actually bears on was completely gone. Decking was installed with 8D galvy finish hand nails. Most of the nails were corroded down to about the thickness of a needle. Even some of the full 16D nails I saw suffered remarkable corrosion.
I took alot of pictures today figuring it would be another good selling point. I’ve bitten the bullet this year and honestly trying to use only the best materials I can get my hands on for fasteners, flashing, and hardware….and it’s showing in my proposals. I’ve been underbid at least twice that I know of. Hopefully some of these pictures will help educate some future clients.
FWIW, this deck is 11yrs old and located in Weston, MA. The PT framing is in excellent shape, while most of the pine “dressing” was just mush. Previous builder did a decent job of flashing the ledger as their wasn’t any damage at the ledger/house connection. Surprising, considering the damage some of this hardware has suffered just inches below the flashing.
I thought maybe some of you might be interested in seeing the pictures as well…
Replies
Holy smokes... great pictures, thanks for posting them!
Did they possibly use salt to keep ice off the deck?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
That's a great question Ed, I'll have to ask these folks on Monday. I'll keep you posted. I'm thinking that they didn't....this deck is off the back of the house in a backyard without much going on....basically, no reason to be out there in the winter. But surely worth asking never the less.
Those were galvy hangers?
ouch...
can't even blaim the new treated wood.
btw, that framing didn't appear to be treated in my quick glance, was it?
any idea what caused the hangers to fail so quick?
is this deck on a boat or somthing
right next to the ocean
I agree with the question "did they use salt" Ive pulled hangers off of decks more then 30 years old that looked almost as good as new, yes a little thicker, different in desing a little and a little discolored
ask nice an polite, so they think for a minute and go ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no...................
if you ask quick and rude they will jsut say NO!, not giving yout that hesitation and silent answer of yes we did , and if yes find a solution or in a few years your hangers will look like that if they were really galvy simpson hangers, and with the new pt, lawsuit time
goodluck
Eye, yi, yi. Was the flashing aluminum? Can you see any brand name on the hangers? demoing must be easy <G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
If it ain't salt then it might be an animal(dog?) pissing on the deck.????
"If it ain't salt then it might be an animal(dog?) pissing on the deck.????"
Butch,
Actually,...you make a very valid point.. I've seen firsthand galvanized steel rust away in less than a year when exposed to animal urine. And often an animal will keep going back "respraying" the same area time and time again (marking it's territory). Good point.
Jon
Thanks, but I figured it was a bit of stretch when he said 80% of the joist hangers
were rusted. After reading all the posts it probably was the result of no name
joist hangers(cheap).
DP,
Here is a link to the post I made last year on the same subject:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=32256.1
My deck definitely never had any salt on it. And there was no rhyme or reason to which hangers were rusted out.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
What kind of spacing on the deck board?
What about standing water under the deck?
I haven't seen anything that bad, but have seen some rust on hangers when decks were low to the ground and had a tight skirt board around them. Kind of creates a crawl space over constantly wet soil. Of course I am further south and have fairly high RH compared to northern climates.
Just some WAGs.
Let us know what you figure out.
Dave
Sounds like these are great photos to use in your sales pitch. You can switch to stainless steel, or offer stainless as an upgrade from the super-duper galvanized rated for the new wood. In any case, you can sure differentiate yourself as a quality builder and raise suspicion in the client's mind as to the safety of the low ball bidders' methods.
Just got back from the Red Sox game (we won, despite Manny!)....lots to respond to, so I'm doing it to ALL. I'll give as much info as I have right now, and would really appreciate any possible explainations or comments regarding the failure.
1. they are definately galvy hangers and don't appear to be of very good quality
2. the lumber is SYP PT
3. not on a boat, nowhere near the ocean
4. aluminum flashing, but the hangers were equally deteriorated near the ledger (al flashing) and near the rim joist (no flashing)
5. "no name" hangers....builder's special I guess. Definately not Simpson
6. decking is painted fir....I've never seen this deck in a dry state. I looked at the job in the pouring rain, then it rained yesterday here before starting the job today. Deck was soggy, many soft rot spots with mostly no visible gap between boards due to swelling and several coats of paint. No standing water on the deck this morning though.
7. this may be important: the deck is 26" off the ground and a gutter downspout travels down the side of the house, with the old decking cut around it, and just dumps out under the deck
8. dryer does NOT vent out under the deck
9. Could be dog pee (they've got two), but again, the damage is wide spread.
It does appear, however, that the saddles of the hangers have rotted/rusted from the inside out....meaning it was at it's worst where it contacts the bottom of the joists and "better" on the outside. Many or most were rusted out clear through. My best guess at this point, is a perpetually damp environment (low deck in shady back yard) aggravated and encouraged by the gutter dumping out under the deck combined with crappy low grade hardware. Still doesn't explain the nails being in such poor shape though....unless they weren't hot dipped galvy, but a lesser grade to begin with.
I replaced all the hardware on the deck today with Simpson Z-max and double hot dipped galvy nails. I plan to install the Weatherbest decking with McFeely's double decker composite deck screws, the railings with 305 SS screws, and the AZEK trim with Hitatchi SS coil nails. I've also replaced all the flashing with that new paper backed copper roll flashing. Any other suggestions are welcomed. I promised these folks the best deck they could get with the materials they have chosen, and I plan on delivering it, so I appreciate your feedback.
It sounds like you did a great job. I lost a deck job this spring, and I don't lose many jobs. The guy never called back, so I'm not sure, but I'm assuming the problem was price. I keep thinking that the cheaper deck he got was not built with copper flashing, Z-Max hangers, double-dipped nails and stainless decking screws. In my future proposals, I will need to be more clear about the importance of these details so the customer understands why the price is higher.
I'm staring a deck next week that will be my first sice all this ACQ stuff came to light. I designed it mostly with wood bearing on wood (Joists on girders, on posts, on concrete) with no hangers. It will be mostly free-standing with no load-bearing fasteners or metal flashing at the house. The major drawback to this design will be the 13 4-foot holes we need to dig!
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Sounds like it was built over a swamp.
Thanks for the follow up.
That sounds like the few I have seen with similar (but not as bad) damage. Budget grade hanger are not uncommon around here. The age of the deck could tell you about the nails also. I bought a case of "electro-gavanize" nails back then. Used a bunch in fencing construction. was bach in a few years pulling out and replacing all the "bleeders." The things were awful, but cheap. Never used them in on a deck, but can see how the low cost could lead one down that road. You can tell them from hot dipped galvanized easily enough, they are slick, almost like a coated nail with a gray powder like coating on them.
Your repair and rebuild sounds like a class job.
Dave
Thanks for the photos and update. Knowledge like this about quality vs. cheapo products and installations is what keeps us on our toes and helps all of us with quality concerns to do our best in the field.
Part of what makes this forum worth the time.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually I think that you might have had mechnaical galvanized nails if they where a dull gray.
Electogalvanized with be bright, like a tinned surface.
Hot dipped with be a dull gray, but fairly rough texture.
Man, those pictures make me cringe. In another thread I mentioned that I took Zmax hangers and painted them for the deck I'm building right now. I did sixty hangers spray-primed and spray painted in about 30-40 minutes. I read somewhere (US forest service study, I think) that painting galvanized connectors can double their life because the paint must fail before the galvanization can start doing its thing. A few bucks and thirty minutes is worth it to me. SS hangers would be the only better option.
J Painter
I build decks often where snow melting keeps the wood saturated for extended times. The suggestions offered and the method you propose seem like a fine fix. I also usually slather "Black Jack" on the tops of my joists and girders and all the end grain and in the hanger saddles. It is nasty messy stuff to use but seems to extend the life of the deck.