We had a final inspection the other day for a projet, part of the project was adding a stool and vainty into each of two bedrooms… To make a long story short, the area for the stool room was going to be TINY, everyone knew going in, but the h/o’s insisted. I wasn’t aware of a code requirement for space in front of a stool, and for what ever reason neither was our plumber.
We sent a set of plans to the city for approval, after changing a few things here and there to make them happy they stamped off on it.
We have a rough plumbing inspect and a framing inspect.
The inspector comes to do the final and says, Oh you don’t have near enough room in front of the stools, I’m not passing it..
So now I’m trying to figure out just how to approach them to get this resolved with out a major re-do of the enitre space… It would have been much different if they would have A) not approved the plans B) caught it at rough plumbing or C) caught it at rough framing…. to wait until the final and then make a big deal about it is really pissing me off.
Replies
You need 24" in front of a plumbing fixture, but there's almost no way a planchecker is going to redline something like that for you. Your plumber should have sensed something was wrong while roughing in with no room behind him. The good news is that there's probably a toilet that will work for you. Find a good inside sales person at a wholesaler and run it by them.
Yep... 24" is what the inspector said...
In my head, looking at the scaled and dimensioned drawing, it should have been more then obvious there would not be 24" in front of stools... But I agree that is not likely they would have caught it.
What's really pissing me off is that know-one caught it until the final after everything is done, well that and the fact that in my head the plumber really should know this sort of thing.
I doubt there is toilet that's going to work, and I've tried calling a few local supply houses as well as Toto, Barclay, American Standard, & Gerber direclty... no go.
What I have now in front of the stool is 18" with a 27" front-back stool...
You might want to hit the terrylove.com plumbing forums. There're some dudes over there that know damn near everything.
thanks for the heads up
here
that was going to be my suggestion, which is truly legitimate for a reasonable contractor, put in a "hat box toilet". They have way less infringement in the reasonable "24" space in front of the water closet, and they are very hot in new custom homes right now. It shouldn't be a problem with the inspector if you simply convey to him that you and the homeowner got together to find a solution to they problem, and they simply chose different model. Your relationship should be in tact. You still may have to move your flange. Which brings me to another question, are the W.C.'s on conventional framing or slabs?
though it may solve your clearance issue, do consider that while hat-box toilets are beautiful, they have functional bugs - even the high-end models; in their rush to the marketplace, they skimped on a good flush
i agree the timing of the denial is awful, but you're gonna have to get over that so that you can continue to work
finally, the plumber is an idiot or irresponsible, or both - bad combo!
Around here some say the quote "Dumber then a Plumber!"
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=79104.9
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Take the toilet out. Build some sort of box around it. Get it reinspected. Put it back in. And fire your plumber. He's an idiot.
The final answer is maybe. And that's definate.
http://www.hay98.com/
Actually the plumber is pretty good so he stays... and yeah... something like what you said, but I couldn't do that.... it be illegal!
I could understand if we were trying to short cut a code that related to the safety of the building or the occupants... In my mind this does neither.
and I wouldn't have done it intentionally from the get go...but it really hacks me off when nobody catches this crap until the very end.
Your plumber is supposed to know this stuff. Hell the guy drawing up the plans is supposed to know this stuff.
Doesn't matter now. I'm still thinking that this is the easiest solution.
The final answer is maybe. And that's definate.
http://www.hay98.com/
Why's it the plumbers fault? He did'nt design it did he?
Years ago, working for my old man- a second generation plumber- I used to ask code questions and was usually told -who cares (half jokingly- half serious)
We had large commercial projects with 25 PE stamps on each print. If an inspector ever questioned/ failed anything we would just unleash about 5 mechanical engineers on them. So code be dammed--- follow the print.
Only time the code book came out was when someone was studying for there Journeymen test.
If a variance is out of the question-- your solution works for me.....wall mounts a good idea also, but pricey.
actually the plumber sorta did design this one...
but that's besides the point, In my opinion it is the plumbers responsibility to know the applicable codes.
I'm not saying I shouldn't know it myself and trying to pass blame but one of the things I expect of all our subs is to know their trades and their code's inside and out.
I'm not saying I shouldn't know it myself and trying to pass blame but one of the things I expect of all our subs is to know their trades and their code's inside and out.
Actually, it sounds like you are trying to pass the buck.
If you are the gc, you should have known. I'm a tradesman and I've been "forced" to build lots of things that I didn't agree with by gc's that draw up weird stuff. Quite frankly, it's not in my job description to tell a gc how he should do business.
The most blatant example of this was a house I framed for a builder years ago when I was young, dumb and willing to do whatever. He handed me a second floor plan that had the walls drawn buy no dimensions. He told me to scale them. There was one dimension on the entire plan: it showed a 2'-6" door leading to what maybe was a bedroom. I put in a 2-6 door even though I thought a 2-8 was appropriate.
A couple weeks later, the builder calls me up complaining that I put a door in to a bedroom that wouldn't pass code. There wasn't enough room to open it up wider without ripping the trim and he was upset with me. I went to my truck and showed him the empty floor plan and the one door with the 2-6 dimensioning. I told him that I figured that if that was the only dimension on the plan, it must have been well thought out and important.
My story mirrors your story. You had weeks or months to think about how much room would be in front of that tight stool spot and now your running around trying to load the responsibility on the tradesman. The tradesman isn't an architect, nor is he the gc.
Pardon me if I don't feel sorry for your situation. I've "donated" far too much money to gc's that didn't do their homework. This sounds like the same situation.
blue
(I've "donated" far to much money to gc's that didn't do their homework.)
I feel the same way.Why is it that when they screw up they always ask if you will come over right away and help them figure out how to fixit and then when you bill for it they go ballistic or say something like THATS TOO MUCH MONEY I'LL GIVE YOU HALF THAT.
When I was running my buddie's remodel side of the company he would berate every sub every friday about being too high and some would cave and he would turn around and say to me if they weren't too high they wouldn't have conceeded.This type of managerial style would infuriate me to the point that when he would try it on me I would raise my price and challenge him outright.We finally got tired of the head butting and he let me go but he still calls me to fix some emergency but he pays me in cash so his customer doesn't see the mistake on the books.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Blue.... Eat me...
you don't have all the facts and you're blaming me for #### up in a situation I had little control over... you want the full story...?
Our plumber, whom we have a great working relationship with, Brought this job to us, he was the one that worked out all the requirements in terms of fixtures etc. with these people before I even met them. We went around & around about this particular detail and I kept saying there wasn't enough room for what they wanted.
The plumber came up with how to shoe horn in these two stool rooms and two vanities because they were a "must". I was the one that drew it up. So that's how we got here....So he wasn't "forced" to build a damn thing
I'm not much into playing the blame game myself, I could give a sht who screwed up along the way when problems arise, once it happens my main focus is coming up with a solution. However if you really want to try to find blame in this one I ain't taking it.
Sure I didn't know the plumbing code, I'm sure there are a lot of codes I couldn't't site exactly. I admit now that seems like a pretty obvious one, but I missed it, my plumber missed it, my boss missed it, the plan approval people missed it, (and yeah it would be obvious on the prints there wasn't enough room) our carpenters missed it, the rough in plumbing inspector missed it, the rough in framing inspector missed it, and the final inspector found it.
I never said I expected the plumber or anyone else to "donate" a damn thing, so take your assumptions and shove it where the sun don't shine.
So, ok I pardon you but i never asked for your sympathy either, & you can KMA if you think I'm trying to pony off some guilt or pass the buck, because I'm not. The fact of the matter remains I expect our plumbers, electritions, and hvac guys to know their code inside and out, and if I suggest something that is against code, which wasn't the case this time, they I expect them to be able to say hey that's a bad idea and here's why.
Multiple Choice:
A.) Eat me
B.) Shove it where the sun don't shine
C.) KMA
So who says there's not more than one way to solve a problem?
be a Roar!
(D) Bite me...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
D) Bite Mike
Barry E-Remodeler
I have seen times when I knew the code better than the inspector. Even they do not always know. Nobody can rememebr all there is to know about the code. I generally have a good handle on the code and remember a lot of it, but even I do not always remember something. That is the reason I have code books.
Rejected your request for a variance huh?? Or just having a bad day?
probably a combination of both... they haven't rejected anything yet, but I'm fairly certain they will... can't say I blame them to much, this isn't exactly a grey area, kinda of cut and dry really ;)
What I didn't appreciate was blue making assumptions and accusations about things he did not know.
such is life on the internet I guess, I've done it myself
But yeah, It hasn't been the best morning and I'm dog tired so that has me crankier then usual.
Put in one of the kiddie toilets and be done with it. Technically it wasnt a code violation untill the final inspection because there was nothing there but the flange. They make toilets that will meet code in that space so pick one and put it in. Tell the homeowners to call the plumber back after you are done and do whatever they want. Sounds like they went to him first anyway.
It's not a commercial gig. Your electrician, and heating and air guy don't get away with it, then why should the plumber?
The final answer is maybe. And that's definate.
http://www.hay98.com/
Had something like that in the Fraser Valley some 15 yrs ago.
Wired a 36 suite apt bldg according to prints; including Fire Alarm system.
Final electrical inspection... passed
Final bldg inspection... passed
Fire dept comes in... "Where's the strobes??"
We go "Huh"
It seems that someone changed the designation of the building from "general apartments" to "Senior's apartments" somewhere along the line. They notified the city, who informed the F.D.; so when the plans came thru there, they (FD) put in a requirement for strobes in all the units. This info went back to the city planning dept., and stopped there.
So we ended up having to "fish-in" strobes into all 36 units. I don't know if the boss got paid for that... not my concern; I just do the job I'm told to do.
Personally, I think the City should have paid for the extra expenses, but when have you ever encountered a government department that would take responsibility for it's foul-ups?
locolobo
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Its nice to know that I'm not the only one that would do that!
You got to do what you got to do. I've covered up worse goofs.
The final answer is maybe. And that's definate.
http://www.hay98.com/
Corner toilet?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
pull the stool, cap the drain lines below the CC slab, temp-glue down a piece of tile or two in place of the removed closet flange, grout it in, take the supply shut off, cap the copper line.
Call in the final inspect, call the new room a "closet" pass the inspect and a week later have the plumber go back and put it right back the way it was.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 9/23/2006 8:18 pm by IMERC
How about pulling the toilet, installing a urinal and putting a "men's room" sign on the door.
CAG,
What about the wall mounted toilet? You know, the one wher the tank mounts into the wall.
bi!ch slap the Plumb?er
Good luck,
Garett
Get one of theses, it what they use in preschools.
I dig the Buddy Bear one. Sit in one of them & you'll be kissing your Knee caps!
http://www.rensup.com/Products/Cat-1711.htm?Adsrc=9000008
I already found that site on friday, ironic you post it here... problem is with looking at most of them they have about the same projection as the larger stools...
actually this one may just work.
http://www.rensup.com/Product-Specifications/Specs12922.htm
But I would just love to put one of the use baby-stools in and see the look on the inspectors face. Then watch him have to stamp off on it cause it "meets code"
Edited 9/23/2006 9:56 pm ET by CAGIV
cag... i asssume you are already using a round front toilet... small, like a Cadet ?
so you will not find a standard toilet that will fit on the ring at that rough
i think you should be thinking of redesigning the space... either replumbing for a wall-hung ( very expensive fixture, big plumbing problems, and you need fat walls )
or stealing space in front of the toilet..
i always strive to find 36" in front of a toilet
i would HATE trying to maneuver in 18"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Take out the toilet and put in a urinal. A broom is drearily sweeping up the broken pieces of yesterdays life.
Mike,
I agree the space I have in front of this toilet is WAY to small, but here we are... These stools (there are two) are in their own rooms adn there is no way to configure the space to allow more room for them.
Yes the toilets are already little baby round fronts. At this point I see two options... Install a kiddy toilet *G* that will provide the 24" space or remove the stools completly and call the rooms "storage"
Can't you just remove the door (assuming the door is in front of the toit)? The HO could later add a ("illegal") door after you're gone.Bill
unfortunately the stool is not in front of the door.
Dammmit. Quit keeping us in suspense.
<G>
What's the outcome?
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."
no outcome as of yet... I punted this one up the chain to the boss and he's talking to the city inspectors to see just what our options are... IE how close are we going to have to be to have them let it slip, if they'll let us go with an inch I think I found a stool that would work as well as the possibility of the wall hung
Good reading,,,,,,I'll be waiting for the outcome.
Maybe this is one for the boss to resolve,,,,,,,Good luck.
GO KU.
http://grungefm.com
this is definatly one for the boss ;)
it's nice that occasional sht does in fact run up hill.
besides I put out a huge fire for him today on the job he's been more or less in control before he even knew about it... so I figure it all balances out...
In case anyone is curious, we had a meeting with the plumbing board, and while they seemed reluctant, they passed it in this case.
So all's well that ends well.
and I'll never miss that one again
Kudos
What was the final clearance dimension you were able to get? I think CABO I & II is21" or 24" The plumbing board saved you, your boss, and homeowner a lot of money and headaches. You deserve a bonus.
Plans examiners are not the inspectors in the field. Glad it worked out.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Final clearence we ended up with was around 17" from rim to wall.
In this case the plan examiner are the same one doing the inspections.
None-the-less, this won't happen again
"None-the-less, this won't happen again"Be creative.What is the next screwup going to be.<G, D, & R>
are you saying that Niel shouldn't make the same mistake twice because there are so many new ones out here to try???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"are you saying that Niel shouldn't make the same mistake twice because there are so many new ones out here to try???"Yes. At his age there are so many new one to do.At mine age I am running out of new ones. But of the repeats I don't remember 75% so I don't know if count as new or not.
it's a bear when you proclaim.. I won't do that again...
and the person with ya says...
that's what ya said about that a couple of hours ago...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
not real sure but I'm sure there will be one.
But I'm still not taking full credit for this one. It was a group screw up ;)
We call a group screw up a cluster F#@% !Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Major coop! Congrats.
TFB (Bill)
Our current project failed an electrical inspection this week...bunch of electrical stuff in a return air stud space. It did cause work on the kitchen to grind to a hault. Worked on the bathroom while the electrician moved a switch and a several cables (including a feed to an attic sub-panel).I didn't sweat it (the HO hired the electrician), but I did not notice it either. Ain't this stuff fun. : )
what you talking about?
this stuff is easy!
Just watch it on TV and go for it!
I had an electric inspect fail yesterday on one of our jobs, fortunetly in this case the H/O did his own electric work, so it's on him. All minor issues though and will taken care of.
Easy for you Construction Management Gurus with all that relevant edjumaction......I'm just a Forest Ecologist...so I can tell you all about how to grow the lumber...still learning how to use the stuff myself.
construction mgnt guru my ####.
maybe one day, but not yet
I just purchased the code book for Mass for 40 bucks. It is 1000 pages long with up to 14 rules per page. It is incredibly complex, but in it there is an answer to every question you could ever dream up.I would suggest you buy the one for your state and you can be a hero many times over for your company in the future.It can also further your education in the building trades, it tells you how to do every thing right the first time.
Glad to hear that reasonable minds prevailed.
"When it all finally hit the fan I was glad to be holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown Texas called the El Gato Negro."
Have homeowner write a letter to the city saying they accept all responsibilities for design flaw amd in the event they sell house they promise to make area code compliant....worked for me on other issues, may work for you on this, I hope.
You might be able to set the toilet back in to the wall by making an alcove betwwen the studs. Do the same thing in front of the toilet, Run it pass the inspector. He might ok it. But I agree the plumber should have picked up on it.
http://www.americanstandard-us.com/Assets/pdfs/as/specsheet/SpecSheet_1810.pdf
Cadet 3, 10 " rough in, can be roughed in at 8" and set back into the wall for another 4 " if it is an interior wall.
You could get it to 20 1/4 from finished wall.
Edited 9/23/2006 10:58 pm ET by rich1
I am no expert in this area but how about a toilet with the tank up high and a pipe coming down. If I remember right they take up less space.
You could also use a toilet from a 747.
Edited 9/24/2006 2:45 am by gb93433
A 747 toilet and the old vintage toilet
Get a smaller toilet. Then, cut out the wall behind the toilet, install a header just above the toilet lid. Relocate the toilet flange back towards the wall as needed.
Ask the homeowners to tell the AHJ it is acceptable to them.
The purpose of the space requirement is for the convience of the user.
I expect if the homeowners find it inconvient to use, they will use the other toilets and save this one for emergencies.
I would imagine that you are missing the 24' code by a few inches.... what about recessing the toilet tank into the studs in an alcove and that sould pick up 3" or so. It does mean moving the waste line and possibly the vent stack
Done right , this is a really does add a nice touch
I've done this before, just wish I had a picture to forward you.
I understand what you're saying, unfortunetly it's not an option, as it is the tank is against an exterior wall. So recessing the stool is not an option.
cag.... at this point i'd go to the inspector's office for a face-to-face and ask for their advice
i'm not a big believer in undoing things to pass an inspection, then putting them back after you have the C.O....
what the owner wants to do after i'm gone is their option.. but i want to continue a working relationship with the BI's office..
no short term gain is worth a long-term lossMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and there in lies the problem....
It's taken a bit of self control up to this point to not just go off... sure it's not their mistake, it's mine and the plumbers, but finding on final inspect... that's BS
But like you said, I don't need a problem on every other job we have going for the next 10 years, so I'd like to work this out.
If they're not willing to come up with a reasonable solution, then I'll pull the stools or replace them with something ridiculously small that will pass inspect, like you said, once I leave the job it's not my problem what the h/o's decide to do. I don't like that option, but it is an option.
Will rotating the toilet 45 degrees do it?
I think I do the tile deal and worry about later
>It would have been much different if they would have A) not approved the plans B) caught it at rough plumbing or C) caught it at rough framing.... to wait until the final and then make a big deal about it is really pissing me off.
Was the specific fixture available at either plans, rough plumbing, rough framing? Did the plans show the dimensions of that specific fixture, or just a generic CAD symbol? I've had things measured and the clients find a sales price on a tub or frig or other item they can't resist that changes the measurements. No one could find that at plans, rough plumbing or rough framing.
Careful what you ask for. Really picky permit officials can be an equal PITA. Just had one demand a gas schedule for an all electric house! Of course, that's the designer's headache, and not the contractors.
Just wondering what code your under? I checked in the 2003 IRC page 46 section R307 figure R307.2 which states you can have 21" clearance in front!
Currenty under the UBC 97 and 2000 UPC
The city is getting ready to adout the 2000 IRC but not quite yet...
that was going to be part of my argument, that once you guy's adopt it we'll be that much closer! ;)
I'm mad at myself for not knowing something that should have been pretty obvious and more so at the plumber who really ought to know this stuff..
Oh well live and learn...
Use a drywall mud bucket. That's what everybody used who didn't sh*t in my tub.
This would get you within a 1/2" of the 24" clearance, but you would need to use a flushometer unless you have a tank above - Euro-Style. More money, but it's code and you don't have to come back a redo again. What you spend in fixtures you'll (somebody'll) save in labor and time.
http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/detail.jsp?from=thumb&frm=&module=Commercial+Toilets&item=283702&prod_num=4460-C§ion=2&category=30
The Client will respect your solution, because it is legit, and may even refer you to others because you did not cut legal corners.
I am sure there is a cheaper version out there.
Frankie
Experiment with the placing of the ingredients on the plate. Try the mozzarella on the left, the tomato in the middle, the avocado on the right. Have fun. Then decide it goes tomato, mozzarella, avocado. Anything else looks stupid.
Richard E. Grant as Simon Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Frankie thank you for the suggestion, I'll look into it. I do not know much about wall hung stools, what size wall do they require in back of them and would there be a problem mounting one to an exterior wall?
There is even a Euro-Unit that fits in between two 2x4 studs and has the tank in the wall. A version of them is used in prisons. An arch. spec'd one for a job of mine but then the bathroom grew so it was no longer an issue. I can't seem to find the website now.I'll see if I can find it tomorrow. I'll try to call the supply house and ask for you. These toilets seem to be popular - at least in NYC.Oh yeah, one more thing. The unit I posted the link for is a commercial unit - for demonstration purposes only. Residential units exist too. Be sure to do the research on the carrier required - I think they are ordered separately (stud vs masonry). The commercial units have the transiton component (toilet to sewer line) as an integral part of the carrier. The residential units are different.These units can be used with a flushometer type flush valve or an overhead type tank. The overhead obviously will be a cheaper installation.Also, wall units do not use a wax ring. Instead it is a felt type ring. A bit different.Frankie
Experiment with the placing of the ingredients on the plate. Try the mozzarella on the left, the tomato in the middle, the avocado on the right. Have fun. Then decide it goes tomato, mozzarella, avocado. Anything else looks stupid.
Richard E. Grant as Simon Marchmont - Posh Nosh
that solution was suggested 3 days ago by somebody. <g>http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79104.6
Barry E-Remodeler
So you did. I must have missed it in my haste.I guess great minds really do think alike.Frankie
Experiment with the placing of the ingredients on the plate. Try the mozzarella on the left, the tomato in the middle, the avocado on the right. Have fun. Then decide it goes tomato, mozzarella, avocado. Anything else looks stupid.
Richard E. Grant as Simon Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Had the same situation here about 2 months ago, new construction, jammin in a jacuzzi,shower unit and of course the toilet, the inspection agency gave there stamp of approval on the prints, it passed all the roughs, and failed on the finishes.
We very simply pointed that fact out to them that they passed it on the prints and roughs, they saw it our way, and got the co. Needless to say that we now have to be careful.
mark