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Discussion Forum

fake slate …

JeffBuck | Posted in General Discussion on July 18, 2005 10:37am

2 products in particular.

 

potential customer sent me a magazine ad for “Lamarite Slate” …

by Tamko Roofing Products

www.lamarite.com

I have to call them for all their info …

was wondering if anyone has any hands on experience with the stuff.

 

other brand is “Majestic Slate”

by EcoStar / Carlisle

I have a full and half piece the roofers threw down to me at the now being restored burned out church a block away from one of my jobs. From the ground … looks great. First time they’ve worked with it … 50 yr warrenty …. they said real easy to work with. They thought the bid price was roughly half of what real slate would have cost.

 

Does anyone have any info .. good or bad … about either?

I know there’s been several fake slates on the market the last coupla years … and most seem to disappear rather quickly. A 50 year warrenty doesn’t mean much if the company folds 5 years after U install the stuff.

 

any other choices U are particularily fond of?

Jeff

    Buck Construction

 Artistry In Carpentry

     Pittsburgh Pa

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Replies

  1. seeyou | Jul 18, 2005 11:16pm | #1

    I like the looks of Lamarite, but it's still pretty new. Tamko is, in my experience, a good company. I've installed quite a few Tamko shingles and have never had a warranty problem with them. If I were gonna blindly take a chance on any fake slate, I'd go for Lamarite solely based on their other products.

    I may be wrong, but I think the other product is the one that has failed miserably on Piffen's library. He'll correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm not green anymore.

    1. 8hcap | Jul 19, 2005 05:30pm | #11

      Now you guys are scaring me.  I posed a question on the board about 9 months ago about the Ecostar product.  I did not receive any responses with any useful information.  I used the cedar version as siding on our lake house here in the south.  The installation went really well and we have received many complements on the look.  I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them later this week.

      Please advise as to what type of failures occurred.

       

      Thanks,

      8

      1. User avater
        constantin | Jul 19, 2005 06:39pm | #12

        You'd want to check in with Piffin, IIRC; he had a couple of pictures of a rubber-based slate roof on a church that had started curling in different directions.I'd like to think that the larger players like EcoStar would have figured those kinds of issues out long ago. Do the install instructions make any mention of specific design criteria for installation in hot climates? I downloaded their installation procedure a long time ago and I can't remember if they had any hot climate stuff in there. The only part I distinctly remember was that their roof warranty only applied if you built up the roof using their materials exclusively and in accordance with their installation procedure. Given that most warranties only cover the cost of materials, I'm not sure that it is even worth bothering to register a roof.Of all the warranties I reviewed (and it certainly was not an exhaustive search), only one company making concrete shingles gave a full 50-year materials and labor warranty.

        1. 8hcap | Jul 19, 2005 07:30pm | #13

          Yes we registered and it was installed by a Ecostar-approved installer although it was their first installation.  We used a specified double-sided adhesive tape between the courses so maybe that was the fix.  Since this will be our retirement home (after I recover from the sticker shock) we opted for very low maintenance.  Most all the trim is metal except for exposed cedar rafter tails along two of the roof lines.  The siding contractor formed all the metal on the job with no seams except at the corners.

          If the siding fails it sure will not be low maintenance!

          8

      2. seeyou | Jul 20, 2005 02:07am | #18

        Sorry, didn't see the original post. In theory, the fake slate looks good. In practice, there's been lots of failures. Several of the products that were on the market 5 years ago are no more. UV breakdown of rubber or plastic is the problem.

        The library on Piffen's island is what he's shown pics of. I've seen it and the slates are deteriorating quickly. I'm not sure of the brand.

        Hopefully by the time you purchased your roof, the bugs have been worked out. I really like the concept, but I'm leery of selling the product. When I put on a 50 year roof, I charge for a 50 year roof and I want to deliver a 50 year roof. I'm waiting to see.I'm not green anymore.

        1. Piffin | Jul 20, 2005 02:44am | #20

          here they are again. The library( fake slate comp real.jpgh) I believe was Eternit brand, left of valley original slate 90 YO, right was new Etenit.
          Photos labeled fake slate and slate immitation were on anot6her house new three yuears ago and looks like Eternit also, but I can't verify that without a couple phone calls 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

    2. JohnT8 | Jul 19, 2005 07:50pm | #15

      If I were gonna blindly take a chance on any fake slate, I'd go for Lamarite solely based on their other products.

      What does that stuff run a sq?  And how does the labor typically compare to standard asphalt?  (ie is labor twice as much $$ as asphalt shingles).

       jt8

      The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler

      1. seeyou | Jul 20, 2005 01:57am | #17

        What does that stuff run a sq?  And how does the labor typically compare to standard asphalt?  (ie is labor twice as much $$ as asphalt shingles).

        I think it runs in the $400-$500/sq range. Labor wise, I think I'd charge about 3x or 4x my asphalt price which is about half my slate price. I'm not green anymore.

        1. theslateman | Jul 20, 2005 02:10am | #19

          The real slate from Quebec is only $430 a square shipped to your site.

          Then you needn't worry about premature failure-that rock is good for a century or so.

          Yes it's more labor intensive than rubber slate,but the end result is attractive,weatherproof,fireproof,and long lasting.

          1. seeyou | Jul 20, 2005 03:56am | #21

            The real slate from Quebec is only $430 a square shipped to your site.

            $430 US or Canuck? I can get black slate here in KY for about that price, but shipping adds another $150-$200/sq. Greens, reds, and purples, and black in large sizes gets to up around $900/sq + shipping.

            What you mention is another problem I see with the fake stuff. There is a high level of skill necessary to install a slate roof. The only difference that I see between the two installation wise is, you don't need a slate cutter for the fake stuff and it's not as heavy. The literature for some of these products make them seem deceptively simple, but there's the same approximate learning curve as real slate. I'm not green anymore.

          2. theslateman | Jul 20, 2005 11:46am | #26

            I paid $430 U.S. delivered to Bangor ,Me. for 10x16 smooth texture in black.It looks real close to the old Monson black.

            Yes you can spend more for thicker textureed stuff and the reds are more money,but if I were a consumer looking to spend a ton of money on a product I'd want it to be proven by the test of time which real stone has for centuries.

          3. seeyou | Jul 20, 2005 12:06pm | #27

            if I were a consumer looking to spend a ton of money on a product I'd want it to be proven by the test of time which real stone has for centuries.

            Exactly. The structure has to be built to carry the extra weight of slate, though. Every time I've been asked to bid on a fake slate job, I've also turned in a copper price. Usually not much more. I'm not green anymore.

          4. theslateman | Jul 20, 2005 12:17pm | #29

            Slate only adds 5 to 6 pounds per sq. foot more to a roof than does regular asphalt shingles.So it's not necessary to beef up framing for slate ,any roof built to handle standard live and dead loads should handle it no problem.

            Since snow typically slides off slate the Winter loads on that roof might actually be less than an asphalt roof.

          5. JohnT8 | Jul 20, 2005 07:28pm | #31

            Exactly. The structure has to be built to carry the extra weight of slate, though. Every time I've been asked to bid on a fake slate job, I've also turned in a copper price. Usually not much more.

            So if the fake slate is running in the $400/sq range, where is copper typically?

            I think it runs in the $400-$500/sq range. Labor wise, I think I'd charge about 3x or 4x my asphalt price which is about half my slate price.

            So on labor:

            $1 Ashphalt = $3.50 fake slate = $7 real slate = $X copper

            jt8

            The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler

            Edited 7/20/2005 12:34 pm ET by JohnT8

          6. seeyou | Jul 20, 2005 08:58pm | #33

            where is copper typically?

            Right now, I'm installing 16 oz standing seam for about $780/sq (labor and materials). That's on an 8/12 or less straight gable in my vicinity. Add for valleys, hips, penetrations, steeper, travel, etc.I'm not green anymore.

          7. Blacky | Jul 20, 2005 04:27am | #23

            ya probally already checked but, there was a product called eternit?
            It was stocked at cassady pierce but not sure now tis been a few years. I've installed hundred square or so, looks like the real stuff at about 350 a square I think.Dan
            edit It really helps if ya read the whole thread;)

            Edited 7/19/2005 9:29 pm ET by Blacky

          8. Piffin | Jul 20, 2005 05:10am | #25

            So, have read enough now to see pictures of three year old Eternit? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          9. JohnT8 | Jul 20, 2005 07:39pm | #32

            Will the real slate hold up to hail and freeze-thaw?  We don't have a lot of slate around here, but that might just be because of price.

             jt8

            The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler

      2. BarbaraD | Jul 20, 2005 03:57am | #22

        What Lamarite costs.

        Just yesterday I placed my order for Lamarite, so I can give you very current information for the northern California area.  Also, I was told by the roofing supply house that mine was the first order for the "new" version of Lamarite.  I asked "how new?" because I had just picked up some samples there in early June.  He told me the first truckload of it is arriving today, that's how new.  He said it looks even better than the old Lamarite, which I already liked.  Says the edges of it are all "chiseled up" like real slate.  Well so was the old stuff too, but he said "oh no, this is much better."  For what it's worth.

        Anyway, about the cost:  Lamarite comes in shingles that are 18" long, and three different widths are offered.  The 12" width runs $295 a square, and the 7" and 5" widths have an upcharge of 8%, or about $319 a square.  The guy told me that most contractors use 100% 12" because larger widths go on quicker, and because it's cheaper.  But I wanted a mixed look, and ordered 35% of the roof area in 12", 55% in the 7", and 15% in the 5".  I also went with a 7" exposure, and the prices quoted above are for 8" exposure; therefore that raised my cost by 14%.  My house isn't that big, so I didn't want the scale of 12" wide shingles; the 7" width, along with a 7" exposure seemed better.  Add to this, however many feet of starter shingles you need, priced at $70 per 20 linear feet, and however many feet of hip and ridge shingles you need, priced at $45 per 10 linear feet.  Rooftop delivery was another $75.  Subtotal at this point: $410.55 per square.  Because my roof is pretty steep (8 in 12), I'm going with 100% coverage using Tamko's version of ice/water shield, and that runs $37 per square.  It makes a steep roof much easier to navigate because it has grip with rubber shoes.  The steep slope of my roof means I don't need ice/water shield, but on the other hand, the steepness says yes I do!

        I hope this gives you the pricing information you wanted.  I can't answer any installation questions, because we haven't done it yet.  But the guy told me it's selling like crazy and whenever a truckload comes in, it's gone in no time.  He also said that the factory in Illinois or someplace thereabouts just put in 35 million in new equipment due to demand.  That's a good sign.

        I considered Lamarite because I spoke to a roofing contractor in Texas (think HOT summers) who told me there's a lot of it in his area, and it's holding up really well.  I live in a very hot area myself, so was very interested in how it responded to heat.  Very well, according to him.  About curling, I don't see how Lamarite could curl, because unlike Ecostar which is pretty thin and flexible, Lamarite is pretty stiff.  It also weighs a lot more. 425 lb/sq at 8" exposure, 486 lb/sq at 7".

        In comparing Lamarite to Ecostar, I've had samples of both, plus Firefree Plus, sitting in my cement driveway propped up against a south-facing blockwall fence, for the last year and a half.  I pass by them all the time and have a long row of fake slate shingles in many colors from about 7 companies.  Believe me, when the sun shines, those shingles are absolutely baking.  Lamarite, Ecostar, and Firefree Plus were my finalists.  I rejected the others because they faded over time which I could tell because I had tucked about 5" of each shingle underneath the one next to it.  The Lamarite and the Firefree Plus had absolutely no color change in a year and a half, but the Ecostar had a little bit.  With the Ecostar I was thinking that if I ordered black I would end up with a medium to dark gray.  Plus, the surface had sort of a chalky look, but it was soooo slight that I told myself "you wouldn't even notice that from the ground." The only thing good about the Firefree Plus in comparison to the Lamarite and Ecostar was that it conducted the least amount of heat.  In the hot sun, I couldn't even hold the Lamarite or Ecostar; way too hot!  But the Firefree Plus was just "pretty warm", not hot.  But still, I didn't go with the Firefree Plus because the edges are very straight and not chiseled at all.  The only chiseling is on the actual face, and it does look very good; I just thought it should be on the edges too.

        Back to the heat thing, I will ventilate my roof deck by laying in a recessed baffle between the rafters, and have soffit to ridge ventilation. Spray foam underneath the baffles.

        Another thing, there is no Ecostar installed in my area, and even though I've been told that it's doing very well in the Bay Area (SF), their weather there is radically different from Sacramento; they get practically no heat at all, while we're frying every summer. 

        Sorry, this has been a very long essay, but I hope the information is useful to those looking at these products.

        1. Piffin | Jul 20, 2005 05:06am | #24

          Great post, good info, don't apologize.
          Please let us know more in a couple years too. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        2. seeyou | Jul 20, 2005 12:13pm | #28

          Sorry, this has been a very long essay, but I hope the information is useful to those looking at these products.

          This is good info - thanks for sharing it. Keep us posted as your project progresses and post some photos, please.I'm not green anymore.

        3. JohnT8 | Jul 20, 2005 07:26pm | #30

          Good info, Barbara, thanks. jt8

          The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler

  2. User avater
    constantin | Jul 19, 2005 04:01am | #2

    I elected to go with DuraSlate, which is made by North Americas largest producer of PVC, IIRC. So far, I have been very happy with it. A picture of it having been installed on our roof is attached. I was quite impressed with how easily it went on. Carving custom shapes is quickly achieved via a grinder wheel.

    Since our roof is 35' off the ground, it's pretty much impossible to tell that the slate is fake, were it not for the uniform color dispersion (which the historical society wanted), and the fact that slate has never come in ridge-covering varieties. Nonetheless, I figure that the longevity of the product is almost a given in our cold climate that has very little heat stress compared to other parts of the country.

    Depending on your local climate, I would look into the performance of these variations of fake slate when the temperatures get very, very hot. So far, I am very happy with the DuraSlate. A nearby garage that has had it for a long time still looks new, even though their version of the stuff was black, i.e. the most likely to curl. The curling is allegedly worst whenever you're dealing with rubber-compounded slate, if I remember the posts I have seen here on that subject correctly.



    Edited 7/18/2005 9:28 pm ET by Constantin

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Jul 19, 2005 04:21am | #3

      wow ... with all that great trim ... hard to even notice the shingles!

       

      Jeff    Buck Construction

       Artistry In Carpentry

           Pittsburgh Pa

      1. Piffin | Jul 19, 2005 04:32am | #4

        wow too, a pipe organ palace!All the failures of such products I have seen were in the recycled rubber catagory. I haven't yet seen these you mention, but like CU, I lean towards Tamko, having had good products from them. but the jury is still out for me on this kind of new thing. i'll take a back seat for a couple of years to see what happens. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          constantin | Jul 19, 2005 04:38am | #6

          Now, now, go easy on our solar hot water heating system. You have hurt its feelings. :-PBut seriously, between the GFXTechnology heat exchanger in the basement and the solar hot water heating system on the roof, I hope that we can give our boiler the summer off. The solar hot water system heats the water, the GFX stretches the supply. It'll be fun to see just how well the whole thing will work.

          1. Piffin | Jul 19, 2005 05:17am | #7

            Active or passive circulation? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. User avater
            constantin | Jul 19, 2005 05:31am | #8

            The solar-heater features a closed-loop, active circulation system. Allegedly, the thermomax tubes are self-limiting, so excessive heating of the coolant is not an issue. Time (and ph testing) will allow us to assess the validity of that OEM statement.The GFX doesn't have any moving parts, it simply pre-heats the water going into the hot water tank with the water going out of the house via the soil stack. Pretty nifty, dirt simple, and great payback, particularly if you heat your DHW with electricity and/or live in the north where the incoming water temperature is very low.

            Edited 7/19/2005 8:37 am ET by Constantin

          3. seeyou | Jul 19, 2005 01:52pm | #9

            Have you got a link for some info on the solar H2O heater?I'm not green anymore.

          4. User avater
            constantin | Jul 19, 2005 03:35pm | #10

            As my installer was not familiar with solar roof systems, I elected to have him buy the Vitosol system from Viessmann which is an improved version of the Thermomax system. Viessmann gave him great local support in getting the system installed, so it was worth the price premium.

            In warmer climates, regular box collectors make more sense.

          5. JohnT8 | Jul 19, 2005 07:46pm | #14

            Sorry to continue the hijack, but...

            How long have you had the roof unit in use?  Are you going to be able to compare pre-roof-unit numbers to post-roof-unit numbers?  (to see how much it is saving)

            What state are you in?  I find those thermomax units fascinating, however I'm never sure if the price can be justified.

             

            jt8

            The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler

            Edited 7/19/2005 12:47 pm ET by JohnT8

          6. User avater
            constantin | Jul 19, 2005 08:30pm | #16

            Sorry John, but I do not have the ability compare hot water usage prior to the installation of the VitoSols because they were installed as part of the gut job in our home. We never lived there prior to the renovation, so I have no idea how much the previous home owners were spending on gas for DHW.However, Viessmann offers a great class that helps determine just how much energy you can expect from the Vitosols they offer. As the insolation levels vary a great deal in the Northeast, we can expect up to 80% less heat uptake in the wintertime than the summertime. Evidently, these sorts of solar systems are ideal for locations in the West like CO where you can expect 300+ days of sunshine a year. If you live off-grid, the energy savings may justify the higher price rather quickly. Ditto for propane/some electric users. If the subject intrigues you, I'd take a course at Viessmann or explore the subject further using the analysis tools at retscreen.net. I'll try to re-enter the values I originally calculated for our home and come back to you with an Retscreen answer.

      2. User avater
        constantin | Jul 19, 2005 04:35am | #5

        Thanks for the kind words, Jeff. We have been blessed with a wonderful array of tradesmen on our job, who brought their skills, knowledge, and dedication to our job. The two dormers to the left are copies of the other dormers on the roof. The section I was standing on used to be a hipped roof, though the two dormers to the left required a flattening of that roof, so to speak. Modern materials (EPDM) makes it possible.Unfortuntately, the only slate left on the property was the little we found in the attic. The two roofs had been denuded long ago and re-shingled using green asphalt shingles (gah!).

        Edited 7/18/2005 9:36 pm ET by Constantin

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