My client is asking about fake slate shingles. I think they are rubber, or recycled rubber. Anyone have any experience, good or bad? Notice I didn’t ask for an opinion, just experiences, cuz I know many folks here think they are on the same page as vinyl siding.
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I know of a job here in town that used them. I don't know the brand, but it was the rubber-type fake slate. Had to be put on like the real thing, piece by piece. I suppose it will last forever, but it still looks fake. "Sheen" is just wrong, looks like rubber, not stone.
The fiber cement siding people make roof shingles. I think Cem-Plank makes fake slate. I was in Ireland this past summer. They don't use any asphalt shingles at all. They use slate and fake slate and of course straw thatch. I think their roofs look a lot better then our's.
I just put on 30 squares of MaxSlate (http://www.MaxSlate.com), plastic fake slate available in several colors. Individual shingle size is ~ 11" x 18". 7 different edge shapes so as to make them more real looking. Roofing contractors will charge about 3x more per square to lay. Nails must be stainless or copper to achieve the 50 warranty. Website has all info. Wonderful product! By the way, I am not affiliated with the company.
I checked out their website. I'm not real comforted by the fact that they've "been around" since 1999 and their product has "been around" since 2000. Not much of a track record. I really like the concept of rubber slate, but I don't know of any company selling these things that has lasted more than 5 or 6 years. A 50 year or lifetime warranty doesn't amount to much if the companies not around to honor it.
try searching thru the breaktime archives (i know, i know, it doesn't work worth a damm)- this has been kicked around before and it seems somebody posted a photo of this type of shingle that was curling very badly. don't remember any specifics.
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Yeah Mitch, I seem to remember that also. I'll try to find it.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I agree about the warranty, however, I have put down one job with them and I am tickled to death with the results. More importantly I am confident the the product will last for at least 80% of the warranty time.
What basis do you have for your confidence in the longevity?
I checked out their website. I'm not real comforted by the fact that they've "been around" since 1999 and their product has "been around" since 2000. Not much of a track record. I really like the concept of rubber slate, but I don't know of any company selling these things that has lasted more than 5 or 6 years. A 50 year or lifetime warranty doesn't amount to much if the companies not around to honor it.
some of these composite technologies are relatively new, which is why you won't have much luck in finding a company "that's been doing this for 25 years...". While I say it's a new technology, it's not exactly fresh out of the lab but rather a series of evolutionary technologies.
Your concerns are not misplaced, but if you really want to have confidence in any of these products you are just going to have to do the due diligence by talking with existing installers, customers, and specialists. I would not discard any suggestion just because the company has only been around 3 years.
"but if you really want to have confidence in any of these products you are just going to have to do the due diligence by talking with existing installers, customers, and specialists."
I am a specialist. I've been roofing/guttering for 20+ years. My typical job runs in the $30,000-$40,000 range. I usually do a $100,000 - $200,000 roof or two a year. My clients are not interested in being a guinea pig for a company that potentially won't be around when the first warranty problem arises. That being said, I have followed the development of the rubber slate industry with great interest. 5 or 6 years ago, I had a customer who was interested in a certan rubber slate product. I found a job being installed in Virginnia. The customer flew to VA and spoke with the installer and inspected the (mostly) finished product. Liked what he saw. We agreed on a contract, but when the time came to order the materials, my distributor had missgivings about the manufacturer and would not take my order. A month later, the manufacturer was gone. I've watched two other similar products dissappear.
I'm hoping these products suceed. I'm just not willing to stick myself in the middle of a class action lawsuit by relying on a 3 year old product with lots of potential for failure. And, a 50 year warranty ain't worth nothin' if there's nobody around to honor it. Established companies don't seem to be jumping on this bandwagon.
So how are innovative products supposed to build up that 20 year track record? Or more specifically, how are the manufacturers of innovative products supposed to stay in business for 20 years if nobody will buy the product?
Edited 1/14/2004 6:42:32 PM ET by Uncle Dunc
DIYKevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Good question. See the post above yours. I would be more likely to try a new product from an established company than a new product from a new company. I think that often a company that is trying to get a foothold will over promise and under deliver. The research and development dollars are sometimes not there. And I'll ask my question again: Why haven't any of the big roofing material manufacturers come out with a rubbber slate? If an idea looks good on paper, I bet they've been looking into it. More than likely, the products aren't testig out in the lab.
Let me ask you this. If you were gonna buy a hybrid gas /electric car, woud you be more likely to shop for one at the Toyota or GM lot or mail order one from the Greencu Motor Co. (est 2004)?
sorry, I fell off this thread :)
what you are asking is a question that vexes business school professors year after year, why don't big companies innovate new technologies and products? Furthermore, why is it that the little startup company that didn't exist last year is the one to pioneer something truly innovative? The answer is that big companies have a difficult time establishing a culture of innovation because the people that work in these established organizations are risk-averse. Technology, even the one we are talking about here, is potentially disruptive to incumbants so the best new ideas, the ones that dramatically alter the price/performance curve are stifled in large established organizations because someone with turf to protect in those companies has something to lose.
To put it in the context of roofing matierals, it may be that the large roofing materials company hasn't promoted a rubber slate product because someone looks at it and realizes it could kill their core product lines, or that the unit economics favor the established product... why make less money selling something that is better? Don't be surprised if they haven't looked at these products, big established manufacturers are rarely the best place to find the newest technologies. Regarding your hybrid car example, why did GM pursue a technology (the Evo) that clearly didn't meet the market needs for so many years? Answer, they thought they could make the market, they could not in reality. I'd seriously look at the Greencu because they have nothing to lose by selling hybrid cars, GM has an army of executives who hope the technology does not catch on because they still believe that their business is building internal combustion vehicles, whereas I see their business as human transportation. AT&T went through a similar problem in the last decade, they just couldn't see that long distance telephone service is a product to be bundled with other telecommunications services, it is not a business on it's own.
Give the new vendor a chance by looking at the executives running the company, the funding they have behind them, early customer successes and failures, and finally, compare the product technology to comparitive tech in other applications... stuff like this is rarely industry specific.
Jeff,
One other thing though, and that is the size of the purchase. With a roof or a car, I am making a significant outlay. I would NOT buy from Greencu motors, because I want a guy in my area to be able to do the car maintenance. For the same reason, it will be at least a decade before I consider a hybrid car - I want my trusted mechanic to be able to do the maintenance. Likewise, if I put fake slate on my roof, I want to have somebody around in 15 years to fix the 2 or 3 that got broken when a microburst came through. With large purchases, the customers are also responsible for holding back innovations, because we worked hard for our money.
Of course, that is the feminine perspective, because guys have this gene that makes them want to try new gadgets, and it defies financial logic.
been a long time since I read the initial 27 or so replys so excuse me if this aspect has been mentioned
was just at a home show ( have a client considering faux slate ) and some beautiful honest to goodness slate was $500 / square *** the faux slate was $400 / square
prices material only - imagine real stuff more laborious and toward 3 X the weight
Oh the real stuff is beautiful!
actually, I am a guy and despite my prediliction for tinkering with things, I want a new car that is maintenance free... which despite your assertion that men defy financial logic, is entirely a logical position. The new Chevy truck I bought a couple of weeks ago is more or less that, and if a hybrid technology fullsize truck was available, yes I would have seriously looked at it!
The market is full of diversity, you obviously are not an early adopter, you are influenced by other who have gone before you and rely on that influence as a purchase determiner. I, on the other hand, am a classic early adopter willing to adopt new technology in it's earliest stages and evangelize the benefits. I am a technology optimist, which isn't surprising considering what I do for a living.
Judging by the frequency and amplitude of technology change in the market, I don't think anyone is holding anything back. Look at the lowly roofing material topic that is the subject of this thread, 15 years ago there was 3-4 options available to you, today there must be at least a dozen viable roofing technologies.
I really don't dispute much of what has been said, my core point is that you just can't go out and say "this hasn't been around for very long, so it's of questionable value" because that is a circular logic that truly does defy logic. Just like in all areas of commerce, large and small, the buyer assumes a level of responsiblity for researching and gaining comfort with new companies and products, and fortunately for us, there is a plethora of information available with a simple google search. Just like the buyer assumes a level of risk for moving forward with a new product, the one that doesn't assumes the opportunity risk of missing the benefits of a new product. Just imagine how much gas you will waste while you are waiting for everyone else to get a hybrid car...
Jeff
I too, am an optimist, not just limited to technology, but 100% pure bred. While I agree with most of your post, I take a different stance in regards to your statement: I, on the other hand, am a classic early adopter willing to adopt new technology in it's earliest stages and evangelize the benefits......if you have the time and $$ to invest (and potentially waste)that's fine. But as many others here at BT and around the country, most would rather rely on real world experiences from the end- product users. It would be foolish to rely solely on the info facts and technical research.
For example, when I purchased my Certainteed Perfection shingles(siding not roofing) I did my homework with the research, but only had two individuals to question their experiences and satisfaction with this new product. One was the local distributor who also installs it (has it on his own house) and the other was an individual who has such deep pockets, that it wouldn't matter if the product failed or not. Both jobs looked fine, but were only about a year old. So I took the chance and purchased it (I'm an optimist!). My problems arose with the design of the lower panel hooks disconnecting and the random sheen appearance...which drastically changed with the sunlight angle. Fortunately, the manufacture replaced all the product and my labor to redo the job. But my point is, the time I wasted hanging the first 10 sq is something I would have liked to have avoided. If I was paying someone to do this job in the first place, no big deal, they would have to correct it. But now that I am stripping that 10 sq and have to spend all the time recutting and refitting around windows and gable ends is something that leaves me a little disappointed and frustrated. I know that some will say "hey, they reimbursed your labor", but I still have 18 sq to hang and 10 more windows to replace, and I would rather be doing that instead!!
So with all that said, word of mouth is equally important as research, even if you have to wait a few years to get it. My opinion of Certainteed still rates very high, since they stand behind their product 100%. However I would be reluctant to buy another new idea product from them(or any other manufacture) until it was proven to be reliable for several years....like from real world experiences.
BTW...I am very much interested in slate roofing and have been following this thread closely. But your comment about your new Chevy truck is what provoked me to post.
I want a new car that is maintenance free... The new Chevy truck I bought a couple of weeks ago is more or less that,
Wrong :-)...was that statement based on research? or the manufactures advertisement? from word of mouth? Even if it was based on all 3, it's a total misconception, which goes to show even word of mouth can burn you. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the only component that requires less maintenance is the secondary ignition system. Plugs are 100K mile platinum...which do fail prior to that point. The remaining secondary ignition components are electronic and do not require service unless they fail. The rest of the vehicle still requires the normal maintenance, fluid/filter service, etc. I could go on...like the new design rear disc brakes...but I think I'd better stop here. I don't want to hijack and wander from the thread subject. If you want more info about your truck, email me: bk01@snet.net
Sorry about the ramble, just my .02 worth. A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Roofing contractors will charge about 3x more per square to lay.
That's interesting - can you elaborate on why?Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Because they take about 3X the time, or more. Unless you thought he meant as compared to real slate. In that case they are cheaper to install than real slate, by 25% to 50%.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Edited 1/13/2004 6:44:23 PM ET by Svenny
Why do they take so long to install?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Becuase each unit gives less than half the coverage of anasphalt shingle so more labor involved. Aslo harder to cut.
I was the one who posted phots of fake slates gone bad
I've never seen them look good more than a few years.
Comp real is real slate left of valley and fake to the right
You see more of the same roof in library
Then on the next fake photo you see it up close as it curls from the sun - only two years old.
I like the concept and almost sold thjem a couple of times but the customer must've been wiser than I - glad of it!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Were the curling "slates" the ones made from recycled tires? The MaxPlank link somebody posted says that that's a side effect of using the recycled tires. Of course they could be blowing smoke, it's hard to tell.
I'm interested in the ones made like fiber-cement siding, like the original poster mentioned. Of course, I'd like to know I could still walk on my roof (how do folks with metal roofs on sleepers get any work done, cleaning out gutters, repointing the chimney, etc, - all on ladders?)
The fake shakes pictured are on two different buildings in town that I did not install, so I am not aware of the brand names. I seem to remember that Eternit was one of them. I think they were both of the recycled rubber type product.
I would trust the fibrecement type if the underlay is either an ice and water shield, two plys of 30#felt, or a hotmop. This is the standard we used to use for asbestos roofing tiles. Cement tiles and cement shakes have been in use for generations.
The roof on one of these pictured has recently begun to leak. I do not knopw if this failure is connected to the quality of the product or the installation performed. Either is possible.
I have a sample of one provided by manufacturer in the office someplace. One reason I did not push to sell it was that I had doubts based on the flexibility of the individual piece. I was afraid that it might get lifted in a high wind enough to allow driven rain to penetrate the envelope. That may now be what has happened with the one that is leaking. I do know that the installers only used 15# felt underlay for much of it.
count me with greencu as staying conservatively away from the re-rubber ones for another generation.
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I got one of those samples also. It does look good ,but I was somewhat concerned about wind lift . However the fact that for a few dollars more I could get the real thing ,was reason enough for me to skip being the guinea pig
Now that I remember it, I don't think I ever got a price on it. When I asked for a quote from my supplier, he said something like, "I don't think you're gonna wanna know, But I'll find out something for you"
Then he dragged his feet finding out. I wonder if he was having doubts about selling it too or had heard something..
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge
FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where
Excellence is its own reward!
The one I got has a website w/prices &pictures . Looked impressive . But if you have a small job say 25 sq. for 2500.00 you can have a roof that will last twice as long as the projected life of the fake.
Yea, I read it as a comparison to real slate install rates. Thanks for the clarification.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
The performance specs suggest thet they will perform at least as well as the warranty period of time.
5000+ hrs of accelerated uv exposure with little color fade --- strenght of the plastic will hold up.
Passes the Dade County, Flordia wind uplift test --- again strenght of the plastic.
2" steel ball dropped from a height of 20' with no damage --- again strenght of the plastic. Slate won't hold up to that.
I didn't but taht product blindly. After looking at the options, I chose the MaxSlate.
Now to your question (I got a little ahead of myself). A standard asphalt shingle is 38" long with a 5 5/8" exposure. MaxSlate shingle is about 11 7/8" wide with a 6-7" exposure. Roofers handle about 3x as many peices for the same coverages.
I didn't question the integrity of your product selection, just the reason it cost three times more to install. I thought you were comparing install rates to real slate.
However, about that testing data... I spec countless materials for new and renovation construction every year and contractors don't care too much what the testing indicates, they are rightly going to be leery of anything short of a twenty year track record in actual use. It's amazing how many thoroughly tested products are in litigation, along with the builders who installed them, less than ten years after hitting the market. There is something about the real world that defies the logic of controlled lab environments.
I've been embarrassed by spec'ing new material that didn't live up to the literature in spite of a U.L. stamp. Other fairly new material I've spec'ed seems to be doing just fine "so far." That fake slate may remain stunningly beautiful 50 years from now, and I sincerely hope it does - I mean that, but real world applications of similar products are not looking so good right now. Piffin attached some great example shots a few posts ago that are tucked away in my reference library now as a good example.
In my book, the jury is still out - and they will probably be deliberating for another ten or fifteen years before builders and specifiers start trusting their verdict enough to put their own tail on the line with them en-mass.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Various fake slates have been around for at least 15 years, and I don't know of a single one based on rubber or plastic,(from 15 years ago) that is still around. I flashed the skylights on a reroof project this summer, which was a fake slate failure after only 10 yrs. It looked awful. They replaced with 50 yr. Elks. The house was 110 sq. BTW.
So, anyone who is going to use this product, do so with eyes wide open! Lab tests guarantee nothing.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
3x more than asphalt 30 yr shingle
does rubber have a good tack record in the sun? can we go out into the desert and find old tires in pristene shape fifty years after exposure to the sun? UV wear is what will ruin those things. Whereas UV does little to affect the life of real slate.
I saw samples of a western lodge-pole pine fake slate shingle recently and i was impressed. Came from a co. in Guelph, ont. Interested?
Interested? Yep. Do you have a brand name?Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
re: pine shingles, imitation slate: Pine Roof Canada, Inc. Box 184, Schomberg, Ont. L0G 1T0 1-800-937-7847 http://www.pineroof.com Slate-style is pretty new, I think, so if it`s not on the site, contact them anyway. Good luck