Question: I called and left a message with several contractors, but many of them didn’t even return my call – what’s up with that?<!—-><!—-> <!—->
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This is a fairly common complaint, so its worth exploring some of the possible reasons. <!—-><!—->
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For example, we often get messages to call people on a project, but they absent-mindedly neglect to leave a phone number! Sometimes they have accidentally left a wrong number. Sometimes they leave a number, in a muffled or unintelligible voice. Or the last part of the message gets cut off by the answering machine. Or a glitch in our answering maching blurbs over part of their number. <!—-> <!—->
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Other problems that we have seen: We did call back, but got a busy signal; we did call back, but no one answered (no answering machine); we did call back, but we got their workplace, and no one there knew who had called us (they left a number but no extension, and no name).<!—-> <!—->
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Its good to remember also that contractors, like other people, have deaths in the family, sick children, parents, or spouses, and other crises that take them away from their phones for extended periods. So don’t get angry if your call is not returned in short order, there may be extenuating circumstances beyond the contractor’s control. <!—-> <!—->
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If you left a message for a contractor to call you, and then you found someone else to do the job, it is good manners to call the contractor you left the message with and leave another message informing them that you have hired someone already. Since so many people neglect to allow scheduling time for a project, but want immediate response, many contractors who have returned their calls only to be told again and again “oh, we already hired someone†become less inclined to return their calls after a certain period. <!—-> <!—->
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What we learn from these examples is that when leaving a message for a contractor to call you, be sure to state your name and phone number slowly and clearly, preferably twice during the message, and if there is an extension number, give that twice also. If you haven’t heard back within a brief period, realize there may be a legitimate reason, and simply try again. Try to allot some time for contractors with whom you’ve left messages to return your call, before hiring someone. Or at least call them back, and let them know you’ve hired someone.<!—-><!—->
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 2/7/2008 9:34 am by Huck
Replies
Huck,
Conscientious contractors can differentiate themselves from the competition, and gain much goodwill, by developing a system to return phone calls promptly. Your FAQ #4 sounds like a list of excuses. Why not take on the challenge of developing systems that will allow you to return all phone calls within 24 or 48 hours? Make it a goal and a pledge to your customers -- that might be better than writing several paragraphs explaining why "it ain't gonna happen."
Hey Martin, those are some good thoughts.
I include my cell phone in most of my advertising now, so I don't generally have a problem with returning calls. I also bought my office girl a cell phone, and put her on my plan. So 99% of all my business phone work is conducted by cell phone now - immediate and direct. I still have a business line, which I mainly use for fax's. And some of my old ads have my home-office number, but my wife generally gets those messages, and relays them to me right away (you guessed it) by cell phone.
I probably should have explained - my FAQ comments were in response to "Frequently Asked Questions", as a means of educating people to reasons for unreturned phone calls that might not have otherwise occurred to them.
Unfortunately, if you get into the contracting business and have to call contractors as much as I do, you'll soon discover that it "is gonna happen", and its actually a benefit to understand why. In fact, the list is based largely on actual reasons that many phone messages are unreturned. If my list inspired you to pledge to do better, that's great!
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 2/7/2008 9:29 am by Huck
I just happened to see this when I logged on. It amazes me that when I ask a home owner about a contractor/sub one of the first things they say, good or bad, is how they communicated. Before their quality, price or anything else. "They showed up on time" or 'called me right back' and "listened to what I said" are comments from the happiest people. Just an observation.
It amazes me that when I ask a home owner about a contractor/sub one of the first things they say, good or bad, is how they communicated. Before their quality, price or anything else. "They showed up on time" or 'called me right back' and "listened to what I said" are comments from the happiest people. Just an observation.
As Blue stated in another thread, good communication is critical, especially to retail clients. The only thing surprising about your comments (to me) is that you would find that amazing. You might be equally amazed at how refreshing contractors find it to deal with clients who communicate well.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
The amazing part to me is communication is the first thing that comes up. Not quality. Not price. Good manners and a few returned calls are good investments. Sure, retail customers may have a hard time expressing their needs to tradesmen but they are the 'customer'.
Huck,
I think the basic problem with your FAQ is a problem of tone. Here are examples of your negative comments:
"...we often get messages to call people ..., but they absent-mindedly neglect to leave a phone number! Sometimes they have accidentally left a wrong number. Sometimes they leave a number, in a muffled or unintelligible voice."
"So don’t get angry if your call is not returned in short order... "
"...it is good manners to call the contractor you left the message with and leave another message ..."
"If you haven’t heard back within a brief period, realize there may be a legitimate reason..."
Why not change the tone? How about this: "ABC Contracting gives our customers this promise: we strive to return all phone calls within 48 hours. When we make an appointment to meet with you, we will arrive on time, or will notify you by phone if we anticipate an unavoidable delay. Please help us fulfil this pledge by speaking clearly when you leave your phone number on our answering machine, and repeating the number twice."
I think the basic problem with your FAQ is a problem of tone.
Hmmm. I think I understand. I get that from some posts, sometimes.
"I'm afraid I don't like your manner," he said, using the edge of his voice."I've had complaints about it," I said. "But nothing seems to do any good." - Raymond Chandler, Farewell My LovelyView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I agree, the lack of return calls isn't due to customers not speaking clearly, flaky answering machines, or cell phones dropped in toilets. The problem is contractors who don't want to run a real business. They see themselves as a working Joe who has a job to do instead of a business with responsibilities to customers and suppliers. There is a big difference between buying yourself a job and operating a business.Some make the transition and become successful, but from my experience probably 75% never "get it" and they end up pissing off a lot of folks along the way who assume they operate legitimate businesses.
tj.....
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Some make the transition and become successful, but from my experience probably 75% never "get it" and they end up pissing off a lot of folks along the way who assume they operate legitimate businesses.
>>>>
thank god for them .. it makes it possible for the remaining 25% of us to look good in comparison
also... there are an awful lot of enablers out there ( AKA: customers ) who keep hiring the 75% because they don't want to pay the price of what it takes to run a business....
so....
it takes all kinds... if we were all perfect , my life would be a lot harderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike,
try this on for size----------
why should a homeowner get angry if a prospective contractor doesn't call them back?
the contractor just did the homeowner a BIG favor by not calling them back--they can now be eliminated from consideration-the contractor has effectively "pre-screened "himself
homeowner should actually be doing a little "happy dance"--instead of getting angry, LOL
Stephen
well, i can think of a lot of reasons for a homeowner to get mad
wasted time
slighted
referred by friends , but no response... so an ego problem
self importance
you name it.. some people get mad , others move onMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I get frustrated when calls aren't returned because I don't know when I should decided that they aren't calling back. I realize that no one is sitting by their phone waiting for MY call, so I allocate a resonable timeframe for the return call. At some point, when it doesn't come, I start wondering whether I should invest further calls and begin to wonder if my message reached the intended target. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
true.... i was thinking like a contractor
now when i reverse the roles..
i think about the time i invest before i make a call... suppose i'm looking for a new service... or a new sub... every once in a while it happens
i have a mason..... decent prices.... good work... shiddy businessman.... always tempted to go look elsewhere..
50 /50 as to wether or not he will ever call me back...
so on one job ... i called about three masons... they were all about the same... bad at returning calls
the one thing i do know is i get a lot of no-other -bid work.. to the point that i just stopped thinking there were other bidders out there
and it's usually because i'm the only one that called them back and finalized the deal
so... all these gurus who advise people to "get three bids"... i just laugh
first ... good luck
2d... what are they bidding on ?
3d what level of quality will each separate bidder bring to the table ?
nah..... competitive bidding... what a misnomer..
here's an example
the old bridge to jamestown needed replacing.. they hired engineers to design a new one
they solicited bids from a pre-qualified list.
they went thru the bid process, selected a bridge builder.
three years in they finally severed the contract... he could not do the job.....
next guy finished it
so.... the state can't get it right ( look at the "big dig" ) ...
the federal govt can't get it right.... ( look at almost any project )...
the towns screw the pooch right & left
what chance does a homeowner have ?....... hah, hah, hah
maybe stephen has it right..... the guys who don't call you back are doing you a favor....
you will never get to experience how unqualified they really are
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
75 percent of the people calling me are kooks
I'd leave all that out, it's the same list of excuses the client has already heard from others.
Why not something simple like "We call back, we will show up."
DO NOT tell them about the secret KARMA DETECTOR that all Contractors have on their phones.
Joe H
Mr. Huck
I think the answer has two arms:
#1 initial callbacks ought to be immediate for all the obvious reasons.
#2 2nd callbacks--the 'I have your bid/estimate/proposal ready' calls--are what can be difficult for me. After I've met with the client and I have the general idea, it is sometimes difficult for me to get my act together and come up with a bid.
Reasons:
Cheers,
Pat
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
I find customers are 10 times worse at returning calls. Had one just last week called up all in a huff that I never called back.... well it seems his son failed twice to relay the message and the all in a huff part means he's still looking for a contractor. But I'm sure if you get the job he'll tell you I never called back. ;-)
Had one just last week called up all in a huff that I never called back.... well it seems his son failed twice to relay the message and the all in a huff part means he's still looking for a contractor.
heh, heh, heh. Case in point. Thanks for sharing that!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Me, too. At any given time I've got 6-10 people that I'm waiting to hear back from. Normally these are for calls that someone else is paying for. Some never call, some call about 2 weeks later.My pet peeve: Answering machine message:
"Hey, we're not here, leave your name, a short message, time you called, and number and we'll call you back as soon as we can...please wait for the beep." (HELLO! this is 2008, we all know how answering machines work -- why don't you tell me your last name so I know that I've not mis-dialed?!?)One step up on the ladder is when the three year old is assigned the task of leaving the voice-mail greeting, and they can't get off until the dog has barked three times. Awww, isn't that cute? 100591.10 in reply to 100591.9 I find customers are 10 times worse at returning calls.
Byhammer.... I have been hung up on by a 14year old daughter 2 calls in a row (second apart)because she thought I was a telemarketer.... on the 3 third call back big bad Mom answered breaking bad on me till she realized who I was..... Told her exactly what she could do with the job... which inculded free warrenty material I promptly threw in my dumpster.... And the kicker..... Her hubby was a VP of a NYSE listed home builder.
Parents passing down their bad habits just breed another generation of whiners complaining contractors don't call back. For the most part my customers are all ace's but the azzes just stand out in my memory.
I may be a little tiny nobody but I conduct business in a business like manner and expect my customer to do the same.... or they can find someone else, who apparently doesn't return their phone calls.
huck i really don'y buy all your reasons,but i don't return some calls on people looking for a place to rent,i've got a lot of excuses for that also,most of them aren't good excuse's...
but your suggestion that if i hire someone else i call back and leave another message is nuts. if you couldn't find the time to return my call,i'm sure not going to make a second call to tell you i found someone that wants my bussiness. if you get a lot of people saying they already found someone else and your getting discouraged,you better hit redail a little faster.
i need a dozen roofs put on in the next year,decided i'll give them a call while it's still cold and they are not up to there necks in work.i've called 3 guys,one came out and offerd me a deal behind his bosses back[sorry not interested] and the other 2 haven't set a time to meet for estimates.tells me:1.they have all the money they need,2.they are so busy,because they are so good that i probably can't wait that long,3.they just don't really want to work all that hard 4.they are so unorganized that they have lost my number,if i give them the job can they find the house?5. and this is probably the answer,it's so much fun to hang with your buddies at the local watering hole,who cares if i get a job,the wife is still bringing in the groceries.
owning your own bussiness puts alot of hats on your head,and the first one is taking care of the bussiness that comes in the door[this case phone]. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I have been on both sides, as a homeowner who has become disabled toomuch to reroof and as a former contracter. I know I never called a contracter back who failed to return my call. To get my roof done last summer i had to call in excess of 25 to get 2 to respond. They both came out, gave estimates and I ended up with the more expensive. they both quoted on same job, removing 3 layers of roofing, ply, arch. shingles. I called back the contracter I didn't decide to do business with. Job was in excess of 10,000. I still to this day don't understand why they didn't return calls.
"I still to this day don't understand why they didn't return calls."It's very simple: they are wearing too many hats and spend all day putting out fires. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks all for your replies - always good to hear divergent views. Gotta love this place for that!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
It's very simple: they are wearing too many hats and spend all day putting out fires.
Hey! - you gotta quit following me around!
edited to add: I like it! I'm gonna plagiarize that and add it to my FAQ!
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 2/7/2008 9:14 pm by Huck
huck,
i really liked the premise of your first post---and I see ZERO attitude in it because i know exactly where you are coming from.
Recently I ran a "help wanted" ad---recieved over 80 responses.--------several seemed like good guys on the answering machine--but they simply neglected to leave an actual phone number for me to call them back.---2 called on a later day kind of miffed that i had not responded to their original call--but STILL did not leave a phone number!!!!!
several others called--and left phone numbers--incorrectly----area code and then 6 digits, or 7 digits-- but when repeating their phone number several times they left subtley different phone numbers each time--all 1 digit off or transposed etc.
Now---as far as prospective customers calling-- i have a simple system i use for returning calls. answering machine answers ALL calls" thank you for calling Hazlett Roofing and Renovation Ltd., we can't anser the phone right now but please leave your name, your phone number and a time which would be convienient for you to recieve a return phone call and we will call you back when we return."
MOST people don't state a time to return the call---so I return those calls from 6:00 pm untill 7:00 pm typically. If the prospect states a prefered time I call them at that time--assuming the preferred time hasn't elapsed before i get the message.
time after time---a prospect will state a preferred time--and then not answer the phone at the appointed time.--no problem, I simply call back the next day at that time--and I will usually also call in the 6-7:00pm slot.
Of course tommorrow i will have just as many new calls to make---PLUS the ones who didn't answer today at THEIR preferred time. I am not complaining--but there were times last summer when I would have substantially over 20 phone calls to return.
I will usually try for 3 consecutive days to make contact--but after that 3rd day, unless I know you personally or you have originally cited a sterling referall I am gonna STOP trying to return your call.
similar things will happen with appointments to look at projects on site.
Last month i had an appointment for Tuesday 9:00 am-- i arrive on tuesday 8:58am---no answer- but cars in the drive way- i knock and ring doorbell off and on for 10 minutes and then leave.------later that day-prospect calls and leaves a message regretting that he can't make our 8:00 pm meeting.----------I am NEVER gonna makean 8:00 pm appointment to look at a roof in January( it's dark then!!!!!)-- clearly the prospect blew the appointment time.
i may occasionally make an error--but in general if you don't recieve my return phone call--it is almost certainley YOUR fault, not mine.( or you are calling from 3 states away looking for free advise)
As blue notes-- i wear a lot of hats. my priority is actually doing an excellent job for paying customers. I have PLENTY of customers---so i have systems in place to efficiently handle calls, estimating,purchasing etc. in order to minimize my time investment in those areas. I am certainley not perfect---but time and again it comes back to error on the propsects part---and I am not gonna lose any sleep over it.
Best wishes,
Stephen
BTW--- to the gentleman who alluded to the secret KARMA dector-------yes I will admidt that several times a year the one installed on my answering machine sounds the warning bell!! :>)
Stephen, I feel your pain about those 80 responses from a help wanted ad. I've spent far too many hours in my life culling through those responses. Many of them are humorous. Some are sad. Only a few are good fits. I had one guy chew me out and swear at me because I wanted to know the name of his foreman and how long he worked at some of his references. I quickly decided that I'd stay on that call for the comedy factor and keep trying to get him to give me the foreman's phone number, company address etc. He finally got so spitting mad he hung up. To help the applicants sort themselves, you might consider using the print ad to drive the respondents to a web message. I'd used craigslist.org and post a very detailed explanation of who you are, what you do and what you are looking for in an employee. Heres some text that I posted on a Craigslist ad a couple months ago when I was still deciding what I wanted to do here in Austin. I got several great responses but ultimately decided that I wasn't going to be working with tool in the field anymore. I posted it before in a different thread but heres the ad:"I'm looking for a carpenter apprentice. Candidate will be expected to be enthusiastic, energetic and anxious to learn from a master carpenter.Please reply and tell me why I should want to work with you every day for the next four years and give you 1000 of my trade secrets.Please understand that I will only be interested in working along side serious, professionally minded people. That means I will never tolerate hangovers, arrogance, complacency, etc. If you are only interested in taking on this apprenticeship because you think you can make a few bucks, please don't respond. I love my trade, I love my craft and I won't waste my time trying to teach someone that doesn't love it as much as me.I mentioned EEO in the title because I truly don't care what your age, race, size, sexual preference, etc is. All I care about is doing a great job for my clients and I'm going to put the best candidate along side me to deliver what I've promised.So, if you're still with me at this paragraph, you might be a candidate to work with me. The work will be hard and the pay lousy....at first. As my apprentice, I will promise you regular raises and when you are done with my training, you will be able to walk onto any jobsite and demand full journeymens wages or more depending on your financial desires and drive.If you are interested in becoming a skilled craftsman, send me a brief bio of who, what, when, why you are. If I like what I'm reading, I'll call you and we can discuss this matter further.This opportunity is open for those that have zero experience, as well as for those that have some experience."
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue,
this is the ad I ran:
Long established exterior restoration co., with plenty of work, is looking for a high quality individual to join us. This is an active, outdoor position involving roofing, siding and exterior carpentry. Hand tools, a drivers license and detailed craftsmanship are required."Git-ur-dun" types need not apply. High wages based on ability. Training and advancement for right individual.
of course I followed that with my phone number, LOL.
It's gotten an interesting response. I have high hopes for one entry level guy. Recently graduated college with a Masters of fine arts---but is facing the reality that NOW he needs to earn a living----is looking for a hands on trade--currently living with his folks----doesn't seem to care much about money---but is excited about working outdoors etc.- very intelligent( much smarter than me)
another guy could be immediately productive-- but i don't quite know about long term.
depressingly--many, MANY guys calling-in their mid-50's, claiming 25 years, 30 years plus experience as carpenters--often claim they were union carpenters for years-----but exactly WHAT am I gonna do with them? spending your day up a 32 foot ladder, carrying bundles of shingles--even just laying shingles all day---is not for a 53 year old man---and they seem angry when we talk about what the work is like--angry, bitter, po'ed in general.
I am not looking for speed--far from it--in fact quite the opposite.---the guys who keep repeating that they can lay 4 square an hour---just aren't getting it(#1 I don't believe them and #2 if you lay 4 square an hour it isn't gonna be to my satisfaction)
in short supply---are guys-say 22 years old with a year or 2 of experience and ready to be over paid in return for learning some finesse and some business skills. I think i am gonna have to hire a couple of experienced guys but primarily concentrate on developing 2-3 inexperienced guys-train 'em from scratch.
we went out and did a roof yesterday with 3 of us------ya know what?-- it was fun again.
hoping to sort out another experienced guy--and another inexperienced guy---and then start putting the pressure on the inexperienced guys to learn and develope.
Stephen
Stephen, if you really want to find the exact guy to fit the description that you just identified, here's what I would suggest.Cut and paste your last post to me. Post it in a craigslist ad. Sit back and wait. You have explained yourself very clearly when you spoke to me. You clearly explained your expectations in your followup reply to me, but failed to get it done in the print ad. My only suggestion would be to edit it to eliminate any possibility of being accused of age discrimination. There are some guys out there who can function at the advanced age but they are rare. The union guys are just looking for fill in work till the Hall calls them. That's not what you are looking for. Do you know about the Craigslist ads or some of the other areas on the net to advertise? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue,
i am vaguely aware of craig's list
i will strongly consider looking into that because I suspect hiring is going to be a long-term on-going thing. People come/people go----but I am fully prepared to over pay for the right people.
as far as age discrimination-REALLY? Once i have specifically described the work, the callers admidt the job isn't what they were looking for.- but as a practical matter--- how many 53 year olds does a 4-6 man crew NEED? LOL
nothing we do is too technically difficult. I can teach most anybody to do it who is physically able to do it---they just have to WANT to do it. mostly i am looking for the ability for us all to cooperate and get along. an unwillingness to carry a bundle of shingles--for whatever reason--means we aren't gonna get along.
I mean---I carry bundles of shingles-- i will hump them if need be for another installer---and it's my name on the door
-so where does anybody else get off feeling they are to good to carry a bundle ????
yes I know-- humping shingles is something i should typically "delegate"--but i still do it every work day personally. It's an attitude thing----you KNOW a guy with the wrong attitude can make your work day a misery.
stephen
Stephen, Heres what the Craiglist section in Austin looks like for today: The headings indicate the type of job. Each heading is a link. The jobseekers are searching in the skilled trades section. Inside the link is unlimited space for your job explanation and criteria. I'll post the roofers ad in the next post to you.Its all FREE! And it's free for everyone! There is no ads, no fees, no problems and thousands of people use it all the time! You have nothing to lose. Your posting will remain active for 45 days. austin craigslist > skilled trades/artisan jobs search for: in: only search titles
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Fri Feb 08 Painters w/ Own Equipment Needed - (Austin-Surrounding citys) img Local Roofing Company Seeking Experienced Roofer - (Kyle/Austin) L1, ASE CERTIFIED MASTER TECH - (4703 South Congress Avenue, Austin, TX) Part Time Mechanic Needed - (Round Rock) LEAD AUTO TECH (AUSTIN AREA) - (NORTH & SOUTH AUSTIN) Rework Operator - (North Austin) Production Spray Finisher - (South Austin) Level 3 Solderers - (North Austin) foundation construction/drill operators - (austin/san antonio) AUTO BODY TECH - (BASTROP) A/C HEATING TECH - (georgetown) MIG/TIG WELDER - (Cedar Park) Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres the roofer pitch from that Austin site.Local Roofing Company Seeking Experienced Roofer
Reply to: [email protected]
Date: 2008-02-08, 11:34AM CSTWe are currently expanding our company and are in need of experienced roofers.We specialize in leak repairs and complete tear offs and installation
of new roofs. Looking for well seasoned professional roofers. We are
based in Austin and have jobs through out Texas.Must have reliable transportation (truck prefered),tools, and minimum of 5 years experience.
Also have experience in all phases of roofing,leak repair, carpentry work,
torch down roofing a must, some home remodeling experience also.
Residential and commercial experience required.Positions available now from crew members to site supervisors. We have been
in business in the Austin area for several years. Outstanding reputation
and members of the BBB, Austin Apartment Association,
Roofing Contractors Association of Texas.
Please submit a resume or letter outlining your experience along
with verifiable references. We require drug screening and criminal background check prior to employment.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Stephen,
Not to hijack this thread --- but I remember just the other day you talked about adding equiptment for this season. Have you considered buying a shingle hoist so no one has to hump the bundles? On re- roofs I know it's tough to have a roof top delivery sometimes.
Just asking 'cause " humping " seemed to be talked about a lot in that last post.
Walter
You are peculiar in that you have very specific jobs and systems and you are looking for particular people. Craigslist ads will target them. It's not really hard to set up your account. It's free...all you need is an email address.The respondents don't know your name or email address if you do it that way. I run my ads anonymous because I don't want spammers to find out my email address. This is the perfect fit for you. You write a lengthy, very descriptive ad and let the job seekers sort themselves out. You don't waste any time, any money and the five people that respond to you will probably be very good. You can run the ad and target carpenters. You can run separate ads to target shinglers, flashers, sales people, sideres, etc.The best part: it's free and commercial free. The owner of the site is a wealthy zillionaire from the west coast and has turned down zillions. His only motivation is to provide free classified advertising to the masses and let everyone self censor. So, don't venture into the social advertising sections. I learned about human nature there in a way that I never could have imagined. I'm too emabarassed to think of what some of those folks write and take pictures of. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue - that ad we discussed awhile back (my edit of your ad) was killed by craiglist every time I posted it. I finally gave up. I should have contacted them to find out what specifically they didn't like about it, but for some reason, they didn't like it! - Huck
edited to add: I have also gotten jobs from Craiglist - I have a good remodel I'm on now, that I got from a free Craiglist ad. For that price, I should run it every few days, like some guys do. But until I get some good help, my plate is as full as I need it to be.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 2/8/2008 7:14 pm by Huck
Can you post that ad HucK? I'm wondering too why anyone would oppose it.What classification were you posting it in? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
posted in jobs: skilled trade/craft
I'm a General Contractor looking for a remodeling/carpentry apprentice. Candidate will be expected to be healthy, strong, clean-cut, respectful, enthusiastic, energetic and anxious to learn. This is not a clean or a cush job, as this is not a cush business. You will likely get diry and tired. The work will always be hard and the pay at first will be lousy. Work might run the gamut from climbing in hot itchy attics, crawling under houses, working off ladders or scaffolding, sweeping construction debris, cleaning drywall tools, carrying heavy materials, and so forth. Please reply and tell me why you would want to work with me, often doing menial jobs, and sometimes difficult, potentially dangerous, mentally taxing, or physically demanding work, and why I should want to work with you, teaching you my hard-earned trade secrets from 30 years' accident-free experience. Please understand that I am only interested in working alongside serious, professionally minded people. That means I will never tolerate drug problems, hangovers, arrogance, complacency, laziness, sloppy work, excessive cell-phone talking, etc. If you are only interested in taking on this position because you think you can make a few bucks, please don't respond. I love my trade, and I won't waste my time trying to teach someone that doesn't love it as much as me. What I care about is craftsmanship, quality, and doing a great job for my clients - and it's my goal to put the best candidate alongside me to deliver the best that can be had. Hours will be part-time flexible at first, leading into a full-time position, and eventually a career, for the right person. So, if you're still interested at this point, you might be a candidate for this position. As my apprentice, I will promise you regular raises if you really stick with my training and show that you are progressing. If you stick with me long enough, and pay attention, and get tooled up with the right tools and the right vehicle, you will be able to make a good living in a field that is always in demand in every city and every economy. If you are interested in becoming a skilled craftsman, send me a brief write-up of who you are and why you want this job. If I like what I'm reading, I'll call you and we can discuss this matter further. This opportunity is open for those that have zero experience, as well as for those that have some remodeling, handyman, or construction experience. Experience matters less than attitude. I found this on the internet, and it pretty well sums up what will dictate who succeeds in this job, and in this business.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
It's gotta be that link that is kicking it out. I thought all kicks were done by readers who recognize a spammer or an ad that is in the wrong category. There are regular readers that will hit the button on every post that is wrong. I've had several ads kicked. Some I just reran and they flew, some I reworded. Some I moved to a more appropriate classification. Your ad looks perfect but I could see where some regs might object to the link, although I don't know that it is specifically prohibited. Certainly, that link would be allowed in the services offered section.Try running it without the link. If it get kicked, try posting another and ask them not to kick it. If it gets kicked again, post another and ask why it's getting kicked. Usually, someone that has helped to kick it will tell you. I don't know how many objections it takes to get it kicked but I do know that I will hit the kick button when the ad is classified wrong or outright spam. There was one guy flooding the section with $5 per foot ads for masonry. Then he'd do it with concrete. Then Stucco. He'd have thirty ads running in two hours and do it daily. I started hitting the spam button on him and obviously everyone else did too. He disappeared fast. I think your ad will be fine if you withold the link. When the respondents apply with you, send them the link. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
be careful with that attitude, age discrimination. As old as I am, I still can work as hard as any 20 year old and I have the advantage of having done it before. When I used to look for workers I always tried to give the ones that grew up on a farm, and the ones involved in team sports in high school a chance. The first because they work hard and the second they tend to know that teamwork is important.
One of my best workers is 67 years old, retired from GM, and works because he gets bored sitting at home. (but of course, we don't hump shingles)
View Image
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 2/8/2008 9:07 pm by Huck
One thing I have learned is not work harder, work smarter. They make elevator ladders to move them. They make roof guns. They make guns to put cap tacks down. All these things make it easier than when I used to hump shingles and nail by hand. Now if they made a pneunmatic shingle stripper.... I might like roofing.
frammer52,
as I described to blue--------there is no age descrimination. when the applicant and I talk on the phone---I describe the work involved---the older folks quickly decide this is not for them.
BTW---as far as some older folks being able to out work 20 year olds---------no way in this business.-- I am 45--------sure I can go out tommorrow and out work a 20 year old--but can I also do it the next day?, and the day after that?--and the day after that?--and so on????---- of course not---and the 50 year old applicants know this as well--that's why they quickly remove their own names from consideration.
some folks mentioned ladder hoists.---this has been suggested to me before. In my area the roofing suppliers all offer roof top delivery---which I use for walkable roofs----but typically not for non-walkable roofs.----even with a laddervator-----bundles STILL need to be picked up and carried to the hoist--------still need to be removed from the hoist and manuevered around on the roof---and with rooftop delivery still need to be moved from the ridge to the installation position.----no matter HOW the shingles get carried to the roof---there is still a huge amount of heavy lifting!
while i am thinking of it--------someone mentioned calling something like 25 roofing contractors and only being able to get 2 responses. I was thinking about this yesterday. We all make assumptions--that seem logical to us---but turn out maybe not to be correct.------ the guy calling 25 roofing contractors-mentioned he did so in the off season thinking contractors would have more time to pay attention.-- that's logical-but not necissarily correct.-- he also mentioned , I think, that he had 12 roofs he wanted done. I suspect he reasoned that 12 roofs would be a nice chunk of business for most roofing contractors--and would certainley get their attention----also logical--but not necissarily factual.
a lot of roofing contractors run their business as a primarily seasonal endeavor( I know I do)--------- If you call me in the middle of the winter I am going to have ZERO sense of urgency---- I would call you back---but a lot of roofers would be hunting or whatever and have little interest.-------also--for me the potential of 12 roofs would be a BIG RED FLAG.------- I would suspect that someone shopping out 12 roofs---is going to want some price accomodation per roof( logical on my part--but not necissarily true) I would ALSO suspect someone shopping out 12 roofs--is not a typical homeowner--but rather another contractor or a landlord or an realator etc.--------I simply wouldn't be interested in a 12 roof package------ I am much happier doing 12 individual roofs for 12 seperate homeowners who all have lived in their homes for years and intend to stay in their homes for years---- THOSE folks are my bread and butter.( and cheerfully pay over the market rates)-------- personally-- i would call the guy with 12 roofs back in order to say "no thanks"-----but a lot of guys similar to me wouldn't bother
best wishes all, Stephen
just another perspective
Stephen-
I've gotten caught up in this arguement before and the plain fact is one rule doesn't apply to all. Most of these guys are doing kitchens or additions rather than the more compact specialty stuff we do.
We had a major wind event the other night and the next morning I got 10-15 calls before 8AM which I answered and my answering machine was full by 6PM when I got back into the office. That doesn't count the calls to my cell. There is no possible way that I can even return that many calls in 24 hours, much less act on them. So, I had to prioritize them. 1st returned calls were possible warranty issues (one of them). Next was the contractor calls (my bread and butter) (7 or 8 of them and they were mostly trees or chimneys thru roofs - big jobs). Then I called back the homeowners that had described their situations well enough that I felt that I could help them in a timely fashion - I don't advertise or in any way solicit roof repair or emergency work. I'll take it if I have time to do it. That left about 20 people that aren't going to get called back.
Now, I doubt that any of the guys that say they call everybody back immediately have ever dealt with anything like that. I usually get a surge like that once a month - after every major weather event. I don't have time for tire kickers and I might be wrong from time to time, but more often than not, the ones I duck turn into problems.
The guy that called 25 companies and only got 2 replies probably threw up a red flag to 23 of them, although I suspect "25" is a gross exaggeration. But if it's true, something in his call or message put 23 of the 25 off. And you're right about the "12 roofs". I've never understood the contractor that cuts his costs to get jobs like that. It's still the same amount of materials and the same amount of work. I once bid on an apartment complex reroof and to get a lower price on the materials I had to spend a lot of MY time calling suppliers to haggle to get the best price which got passed to the customer. Since my OH is charged as a percentage of costs, had I gotten the job, I would have much made less than the same amount of work spread over several jobs. Plus, a job like an apartment building takes much more supervision and logistics than the average residence.
If the 12 houses are grouped together, then I could see offering a little compensation. But, if they're scattered site, what's my benefit in doing 12 for one owner vs. 12 for different owners? If the one guy is an ahole or a deadbeat, then I'm better off taking my chances that only one or two of the 12 individuals is an ahole or a deadbeat.
yet another perspective.
http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
Good explanatins Grant. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Right now you have all the work that you can handle. You might not need 12 houses to keep you busy. You must be in an area of the country that hasn't slowed down. Start thinking more like a salesman. which you are wether you want to be. Treat each and every phone call as if it is from you close family. Leads or phone calls are gold. These are people that want to do something. I'm glad you are busy, but take my word for it, it can and probably will change. Maybe you ought to think about expanding your business to be able to handle the volumn of calls. This reminds me of the old expression, make hay while the sun shines..
Right now you have all the work that you can handle.
I have more than I can handle. You also must have missed the part where I said ALL of these calls are unsolicited. I have no advertising other than a web page and there is nothing on it about doing storm repairs or emergency service. I am not in any way interested in that type of work.
You must be in an area of the country that hasn't slowed down.
Oh, it's slowed down plenty. I've seen it slow down worse than this in my 20-25 years of doing this stuff. I've never run out of work in all that time. I've had to adjust my business model several times, but I've never had to lay anybody off. Some have smelled the slow down and left on their own and some have not liked the necessary direction we had to take to stay GAINFULLY busy and left.
Start thinking more like a salesman. which you are wether you want to be.
As I said in my earlier post, I prefer to work as a sub. I let the GC earn his/her money by finding the jobs and dealing with the customers. I don't solicit homeowner business. I will take it if I've got nothing else to do or a particular job interests me or plays to my company's strong suits.
Leads or phone calls are gold.
Not necessarily. Last summer we had a hail storm. Storm chasers swarmed this place doing crappy work and driving shingling prices down. I wrote 70+ hail damage proposals and looked at that many more roofs that didn't need repairs. I got exactly one job out of it. Not a very good return on my time invested dealing with 150 or so phone calls. I refused to drop my prices. As I've said here before, my prices were set with what I need to make, what my help needs to make, what materials cost, and what the overhead costs in mind. If I lower my price, I have to cheat the customer by doing substandard work, cheat my help by paying them less, cheat myself by paying myself less, or a combination of the above. I'm in this to make a profit, not just stay busy. I can stay busy doing things I enjoy a lot more.
Maybe you ought to think about expanding your business to be able to handle the volumn of calls.
Actually, if I run across good help, I'll find a way to work them into the system. 3 or 4 of my guys go back 15+ years with me, some 5 or 6. I once went solo for about 3 months because I couldn't find reliable, competent help. Gradually, I built back up to around 12. I've gotten bigger than that and I've been smaller, but 12 seems to be just about right for me.
This reminds me of the old expression, make hay while the sun shines..
That's what I'm doing. I just try to qualify who I'm going to spend 15 minutes calling back. I'm not interested in being one of three "bidders". I know how I'm going to price out. I won't be the highest because I work hard at keeping my overhead down. An office manager for my business would be extra overhead, with little or no return. All the calls would get answered, but to what end? I've still got to call them back.
I won't be the lowest either since I try not to cut corners and give the full value the customer expects. I also try to sell the customer what I think is the best for them, not what's gonna provide me with the most profit. I figure they're paying me for my expertice at my trade so they ought to get it.
You might not need 12 houses to keep you busy.
As I said before, I don't need anything to keep me busy. I need jobs that are profitable.http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
Please, when someone calls you take the time to call back. When the GCs you work with run out of work, you have to be able to get work somewhere. Maybe, you could make money on these jobs that seem to be calling you. Again, you need to think more like a salesman. This is not a negative, but low prices don't always get the work. Just giving out estimates without sitting down and explaining what , and how you work, will get you the results that you experienced after the hail storm. Did you treat this as an oportunity, or as you sound like here as an annoinace(sp?)? You will find that dealing with hownowners is more profitable than with a GC. If you find it isn't, you need to raise your prices.
frammer52
what I think you are missing is the seeyou is a specialty roofer. And so is Hazlett
they specialize in different things. seeyou is a copper guy (cu). I don't know if he does other work but I believe copper is the majority of his work. So a HO calling with a 3 tab roof isn't for him. It's like calling a plumber for a burnt out light socket.
Stephen is probably the most sucessful tradesman in here. His specialty is ONE neighborhood. That's right.....ONE. So if someone from the other side of town calls him, what is he going to do with it?
I'm a bit surprised that it sounds like Stephen is gearing up for this year. I thought he was phasing out/over to some other stuff.
I realize that people become desperate after weather events. But trades can't solve everyones life emergencies.
And I do try to return all phone calls the same day. Even if there is nothing I can do.
I don't know if he does other work but I believe copper is the majority of his work.
I have a shingle crew and that's primarily all they do. At one time, all I did was copper work, but my GC clients have asked me to do more and more for them so they can phase out other subs. So, now we do asphalt, tile, slate, cedar, EPDM, TPO, and kynar coated steel and terne as well as copper. My biggest client has recently asked us to do their aluminum gutters as well their copper gutters. They've been paying us $200-$500 per house to get the bugs out the aluminum gutter systems hung by others. When they did some figuring, they realized they weren't saving that much using the aluminum gutter subs they had vs. what we would charge up front. My guys don't care what the gutter material is as long as they make what they need to make per foot. My GC's understand that callbacks are costly to their bottom line and they want to minimise them. http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
You will find that dealing with hownowners is more profitable than with a GC.
Au contraire, mon frere. Apparently you don't know the right GC's. I'm not looking for spec house 3 tab jobs. I'm looking for $100K copper roofs. And I do about one of each every year. And the rest of my jobs are somewhere in the middle.
When the GCs you work with run out of work, you have to be able to get work somewhere.
You're just saying what you want to say and not reading what I'm telling you. I'm not disputing your methods for you. I just don't care to follow your rules and it's worked out well for me.
Just because someone dials my phone number doesn't mean I owe them anything. I don't expect them to wait around for me to call them back. If they don't hear from me in 24 hours, they ought to write me off and move on. But they also shouldn't get mad or their feelings hurt. I can only do so much and today wasn't their day.
Just giving out estimates without sitting down and explaining what , and how you work, will get you the results that you experienced after the hail storm.
I know. But when the insurance company says they'll only pay about half of what my price is and there's somebody that'll do it for what the insurance company is offering, it's a no brainer. I had several people offer me half the difference between my price and the insurance company's price. $10K job ( my regular price) gets a check for $5600. Difference is $4400. HO offers me $7500. My overhead runs about 27%. So, 27% of $10K is $2700. Profit is 10% = $1000. So, $10K-$2700-$1000=$6300. I go in the hole $1200 to do that job. The math on this example is a little simplistic and not really correct, but it's a fair example.
So, yes, after a while I did treat it as an annoyance. The HO's kept telling me "oh, we don't want cheap, we want good." But they took cheap.
I went to lunch with a supplier's rep yesterday. He was singing the blues about some of the stormchasers dissappearing owning them money, but he was singing louder about the local companies that got down in the dirt with the stormers and realized after a couple of months that they'd been working their assses off, but at the end of the month, they didn't have enough left over to pay their bills.
The stormer's pay their illegals $100/day cash and don't pay taxes. My wife is a banker and she says they cash a lot of their customer checks which means they're not reporting a lot of their income and they're certainly not paying their payroll taxes. I can't or don't care to try and compete with that.
Please, when someone calls you take the time to call back.
Once again, you're not catching the drift. If I have 50 people call me in a day, I can't get any of the work I have done calling them back. 10 minutes a call times 50= 500 minutes. There's only 480 minutes in an 8 hour day. Doesn't happen every day, but 10 calls I don't want will easily waste over an hour.
Again, you need to think more like a salesman.
I think too many people in this business think TOO much like a salesman. I've found that if one performs well, people will line up to see them. If you can't perform, you won't have much of an audience after a while, no matter how well you tell people about yourself. Sales is only one of the hats I wear and I go after the kind of jobs I want. But I sometimes blow the rest off. http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
save your breath Grant,
if that guy knows so much-why is he so ANGRY ?, LOL
you know, i was wondering about some crucial differences in how that hail storm worked out for you and I
I am looking through the projects i have scheduled for this year.-- many of them come from that hailstorm( not all--but many of them)
ALL of my jobs, including the hail storm jobs are sold at full price. in this area- my full price is roughly double what the insurance companies want to "allow"---so right off the bat, my customers are picking up a large portion of my tab personally. also---HERE-- the customers prety quickly got a check from the insurance company for most of the insurance companies "allowance"------then if the work was done within a certain period-they will get the rest of the "allowance"
by the time I do many of these roofs-- my customers will have been waiting close to a year and a half in order to have me do the work. They KNOW they are not going to get that second check from the insurance company--meaning they KNOW they are out of pocket even more.
this amazes me---and tells me i have the greatest effen customers in the world!--- they are prepared to wait up to a year and a half and pay roughly twice as much as the storm chasers charged, in order to have me-their neighbor---do the work.
not to be too sappy--but that sort of dedication--them to me--and me to them--makes me feel like I am living in a Norman Rockwell painting, LOL.
please understand- I didn't mean this as any sort of negative reflection on you--- i was just wondering why our experience with this storm had such a key difference---- and I THINK--- it's because your business model of working through GC'c---puts another layer in place between you and the customer
OR--- I was just in the right place at the right time. I strongly suspect-- if I lived on the other side of town-- i would NOT have been able to come into this neighborhood and sell at full price.
something else----( and i have never been able to get this across to Frenchy)--- the slightest wiff of salesmanship and my whole gig falls apart-the faintest odor of salesmanship----and I instantly become a commodity--and a commodity that is roughly twice the price others charge. salesmanship--would be the kiss of death for me.-- I think on THAT point we are agreed!, LOL.
Best wishes to you,
Stephen
Sorry to be the one to tell you but when you step out of that truck, you are a salesperson and your distinct style of "selling" is taught and talked about all the time in sales classes. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
perhaps I agree--to a certain extent.
had a conversation with a new hire a few days ago. I explained that EVERYTHING we do---is salesmanship---that is, when we are working on THIS house-we are simultaneously auditioning for the entire neighborhood--they are ALL watching. How do we park the trucks, Where do we stack the materials-when do we start, when do we stop, how loud are we, how neat, what equipment do we use, what language do we use
BUT--- blue---when i go to write a proposal for a prospective customer-- I don't feel i go there as a salesman.- I go there as a working tradesman. Identify the problem, explain how I would personally approach solving the problem, explain the pros and cons of several materials, explain the price----but I REALLY don't care if I "make the sale"-- i am really not trying to sell that specific customer( which is a key difference I think between me and what frenchy always wants us to do)
I can't explain it properly---which must mean I don't fully understand it
but with a salesman--there is a "wall"-there is always going to be a "wall'--- i didn't always grasp this entirely----but each year i get a little closer, I think.---there can't be a wall--there has to be just "me"--- that is, everything has to be incorporated into the same package--me,the work,my life,WHO i work with, how i work,where I work---it all has to be the same,authentic thing.-their can't be a "wall'---or perhaps--there can't be a "hat"----that is----- i can't pull in a driveway and operate as if" now i have my salesmans hat on'--or "now i have my tradesmans hat on' or "now I have my employers hat on' or "now i have my businessmans hat on"
it's all gotta be one
too"zen" for you?-my apologies---but i think that's why my whole living,and working in the same 12 block radius has been key to me.
what is it 4:00 in the monrning down there?
stephen
BTW--- got a craigslist ad up-----3 responses so far. thanks for the idea
I haven't talked to them yet----but i am wondering about possible differences in demographics between people who repond to a craigs list ad--vs. a newspaper ad
it's interesting to have an idea--and test it out in the real world.
We are on Central Time here.Your approach is not too Zen for me at all. I do understand what you are talking about because I "sold" the same way all my life. For instance, I remember one old guy calling me for an addition. I told him I was too busy to look at the job for a coupla weeks but since it was close to my current jobsite, I'd run over at lunch and take a look to see if it was something I'm interested in doing. The next day I show up in my carharts and he instantly knows I'm the man he wants because I used the word "girder" in my explanation. He was an engineer back in the old country and of course we got the job at whatever price I figured. There is a term for the technique of selling that you do. I hope I don't ruin you by telling you this. You are using what's called the takeaway. You are so confident about your services that you don't care if you get the work and you are there qualifying THEM, not the other way around! Very effective techniques. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yes---what you are saying isclose--but not quite what i think i am doing.---you know i constantly ty to refine it.
first time i had an inkling of what was going on---Years ago it was at ashingle seminar-- ELK I think.
the seminar showed a video that featured-among other things--an older roofing contractor in Florida-one of the pricier areas. the contractor explained to the customers how HE would do the job- and the price----and then concluded by politely mentioning" If you decide you would like us to do the work---or if you have any questions, please call us because i assure you we will NOT be calling you"
WELL--- there was an audible gasp in the seminar( ya gotta do something outrageous to make a room full of roofing contractors gasp, LOL)
BINGO--right there I knew i was on to something. whatever most roofers DON"T want to do---THAT'S exactly what I WANT to do.---
I think i just have this feeling that " I don't need every roofing job----just enough of the RIGHT roofing jobs"
I can't possibly do every roofing job anyway---in fact i can't possibly do every one of the "right" roofing jobs available-----
best wishes,
stephen
GL on the craiglist ad. I've had a very wide variety of success using them. It's a mixed bag for sure. I've noticed that you can further sort through the responders with a simple reply via email asking for information. Their second response gives you very good clues about them. Also, since you are new at this, your ad might not be tweaked as much as it can. Don't be afraid to try lots of different things and don't be afraid to run simultaneous ads. For instance, if I run an ad looking for someone who specializes in residential electrical installation, I might have one seeking roofers. It's not uncommon around here for the same guy to answer both ads. That pretty much tells me that I don't want to bother with a phone interview with him. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
thanks for the craigs list pointers.
i kind of figure i am ALWAYS going to be hiring--people come,people go----and a the ability to constantly run a free ad is appealing.
one thing i notice is------
I am looking for specific skills,or specific attributes--and if "I" describe what i am looking for---all applicants will of course tell me exactly what they think i want to hear.
i haven't quite figured out how to get an applicant to tell me what i want to know---without me tippin my hand as to the preferred answers.
stephen
new hires: in the face to face interview..... i have them fill out a 3 page application.. with everything i will need in the future.. and some leading questions about their goals, etc
then , while i'm reading that.. they fill out a multiple choice personality profile that i got from one of my old bosses
very interesting.. even in it's limited way.. especially when i compare it to mine and some of my current and previous employees
and... this quiz is a simple one.. i understand there are much better ones out there
with these two things i start to get a feel about their communication skills , their work history, their family, their tools, vehicles.. and how they might fit in with our culture
if i want them , i make them an offer and hire them on probation..... 6 months.. which is when our cafeteria health care plan kicks in ( whatever a cafeteria health care plan is )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike,
i suspect--- that a lot of people who could do well with me this year-----are not necissarily going to look good on paper. many who might fill my needs quite well---will ALSO be people who didn't do well in school, or have a certain amount of ADD, etc.
i am leaning towards some long conversations to get a sense of personality--and working with me/us on a trial basis for a project or 2.
somethings just won't come through on paper---and most written questions--are pretty easy to pre-determine the "hoped for" answer
but actually working with somebody on project or two--------some attitudes will surface-that wouldn't come out on paper
like one person we worked with a few days ago-------immediately productive, plenty of experience----but i didn't realize it at the time-----but the guy was actually on a pretty good rant about "mexicans" for a while----stuff like that won't surface on paper.
clearley i have a lot to learn about this---but i am thinking the most immediately productive people---may not be the best long term choice--based on the baggage they(or I) bring to the table, LOL
as always--you give me something to think about.
stephen
no.. the paper thing is not to eliminate them
( although they may make some statements that , in fact , do eliminate them )
it is to help me understand who i am talking to...
same with the personality profile
believe me..... my employees have run from illiterate to Master of Science
and the best ones ran the same gamutMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You read my mind LOL! On the drive home today, I was thinking of some the strategies I use to smoke out the truth from posters. You identified one of the ways that the applicants can trick you: they tell you what you think you want to hear. This might seem wrong, but it isn't. Post a vanilla ad and just ask for experienced roofers. Post a very detailed ad and tell the world what type of roofers you want and be very detailed. Explain the high level of professionalism that YOU do and explain that you expect the same dedication. Include language about background checks and drug tests. Take note of how many applicants you will get on the vanilla ad and then watch to see how the "professional" ad draws. I suspect you won't see the same guys applying to both ads. Think about it this way. You want guys that think like you. You, filter your clients in a very substantial way. The guys you seek will also be filtering their employers in the same way you filter your clients. You don't want every client and your best applicants will pass on the generic ad if they think they are a better fit for the professional ad. The last person I hired off CL had to go back many, many pages to find my ad. It was a salesperson ad. When she saw my ad, she realized that we were a perfect fit. I was paying well for someone with her skills and experience. She was looking for someone with my abilitys and together, it's just a perfect fit. She had to look beyond 500 or more ads. When I read her resume, I knew she was the one. When I did the face to face, I knew I was right. She was doing such a good job for her current contractor that the guy offered her half his company to stay. That included half of what was in the checkbook, which was substantial. When she refused because she wanted to move back here, he offered to move his business here! I tell you that because I'm trying to impress upon you the value of putting it out there exactly of who and what you and your business is. There are people that will love what you are offering. You will get the best candidate possible with the least effort. Your ads will sit there and be read by thousands and they will tell their brothers, friends, relatives etc. If you run that ad and a reply on it comes in three weeks from now, you'll know that your candidate had to really look hard to find you and he probably found something about you that really fit his mold. For the record Stephen, I would love to work for someone exactly like you. I like to get to work, and it's all business. I don't like to chat unless I've stopped for a soda break. I don't like to do things out of order and I like to do everything exactly right from minute one to the last minute of the day and I like to go home knowing that I'll never have to go back there for a service call. Your ads would attract guys like me and I would pass up dozens of others to answer yours. I know the money follows so money wouldn't be an issue. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue,
i see what you are saying--and in theory I agree, that's the way it SHOULD work
but in actual practice the response has been more mixed.
several of the people who called mentioned up front they really liked the line in my ad where i mentioned "git-ur-dun" types need not apply. they --for the most part-tend to be a bit older-and when we discuss in detail exactly what the work is that we typically do---they realize this is too physical for them--and THEY don't take the interview to the next stage.
Other people are more obviously DESPERATE for work--they are applying to every roofing ad--they need work NOW---TODAY--and they will tell me whatever they think I want to hear.
2 things I am paying attention to.---the guys i think will be wrong--almost immediately tell me how fast they are(" I can lay 4 square an hour")--that's not what i want AT ALL, LOL----- the other thing is I am interested in wether they participate actively in any sports--and WHAT those sports are. rock climbing, hunting, camping, running, biking, indicate to me enough vitality to actually do this work
I am going to have to re-work the ad some--more like you suggest. It is generating a lot of response--but from 2 extremes.- i have got several guys in mind with very minimal experience that are VERY eager to work and learn
and i have several guys in mind with considerable experience--older--and varying amounts of "baggage"
the applicants i generally have NOT got-are the ones I most wanted. somebody with a year or so experience that I could help train, help develope some finesse and some business skills------someone with enough experience not to be an immdiate safety hazard on the job-- and enough experience to be productive on simpler things--but ready to move up skill wise. we need 4 basic skill levels--and this particular level is proving difficult to locate.
this is all very interesting-----i am keeping in mind your remarks about square pegs in square holes--and trying not to talk myself into deciding a particular candidate really has a skill set i need--based on the fact that I WANT him to have that skill set,LOL.
Have a couple of people I want to talk to today and tommorrow
stephen
"the applicants i generally have NOT got-are the ones I most wanted. somebody with a year or so experience that I could help train, help develope some finesse and some business skills------someone with enough experience not to be an immdiate safety hazard on the job-- and enough experience to be productive on simpler things--but ready to move up skill wise. we need 4 basic skill levels--and this particular level is proving difficult to locate. this is all very interesting-----i am keeping in mind your remarks about square pegs in square holes--and trying not to talk myself into deciding a particular candidate really has a skill set i need--based on the fact that I WANT him to have that skill set,LOL."You post tells me that you haven't read First Break all the Rules yet. I know you grabbed a copy from the library and I'm urging you to read it asap. It will help you reformulate your ad in a very significant way.I also would put your thoughts out there in the ad: "I'm looking for someone somebody with a year or so experience that I could help train, help develop some finesse and some business skills------someone with enough experience not to be an immediate safety hazard on the job-- and enough experience to be productive on simpler things--but ready to move up skill wise. we need 4 basic skill levels."Those are the exact type people you want to connect with. Those words will connect with them and they will respond. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue-- i am back from running- i am running with some 50's-60's types that are totally kicking my butt.-- one of them is an experienced marathoner--and they are tolerating my presence----- they only let me keep up with them for 30 minutes--and then enuff's enuff-they smoke me, LOL---- they spot me 15-20 years- I spot them 100#'s or so and they totally blow me away----but i can learn a lot from them.
finished"the goal" at lunch today------ I have 2 dailey papers to read and then I will start "First break all the rules" this evening.
stephen.... i gotta agree... you may not call it salesmanship...... but a rose by any other name is still a rose
( or if it looks like a pig, walks......)
in any event... it is salesmanship... and you're great at it.. so great you've convinced yourself that it's something else
so... keep on truckin...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"in any event... it is salesmanship... and you're great at it.. so great you've convinced yourself that it's something elseso... keep on truckin..."It's the most effective form of sales style there is. I hope we don't ruin him by making him aware of it. The true salesperson, according to Gittomer is one who gives value first, then receives the sale because of the confidence gained by the act of good will. Stephen knows exactly what has to be done, tells them (he educates them) which is the "giving" part, then they buy from him. I'm sure he does it in the most natural way and most buyers simply know they are making the right decision when they choose him, if they can afford him. They are buying a Cadillac and they know it will be perfect. If they can't afford the Cadillac, they aren't buying from him no matter what he says or does. I like his style. I'm sure yours is the same. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue-- i was thinking about this salesmanship thing yesterday
we run the risk of quibbling over semantics
however--
i think you and mike are wrong---it's not salesmanship--BUT it might easily be salesmanship for someone else.
I was trying to think of a sports analogy to illustrate my reasoning---but instead came up with a food analogy
"Salesmanship"--is an artifical construct--like a diet.-- lets say I have a neighbor--she is actually a senior citezen. she rarely eats bread-almost never white flour or white sugar--occasionally she bakes whole grain bread.--she eats a lot of vegatables----some fruit--but not a lot of fruit actually-because personally she just doesn't care for fruit. she doesn't drink milk----but she likes moderate amounts of cheese. she has been buying free range poultry and eggs since the 60's-she was raised on a farm--and this is just the way she has always done things-----is she on a diet? no I don't think so. for her--it's not an artifical construct-just simply who she is.
on the other hand--my sister in law--read the south beach diet book--entirely incorporated it into her life--had amazing success with it----and she does almost exactly the same things my "neighbor" does---but for my sister in law--she is clearly on a diet.-- it's an artifical construct for her.
i would think as far as salemanship goes-- I am much more like my neighbor. through shere dumb luck-i just DID most of what I describe. I didn't know anybetter-i didn't learn most of it--I just did it because it was me( frankly because I didn't have the personality or the verbal skills to do it anyother way--being an introvert--played to my advantage)
If you wanna call it salesmanship-- i won't argue--any more than a boyscout helping an old lady across the street is"the christian" thing to do-or the jewish thing to do, or the hindu thing to do--it's none of those things-it's just something done
Best wishes----off to run laps
stephen
We are talking semantics and your examples make perfect sense. One of the most important tasks for a salesperson is to be "normal" and to have normal "conversations". One of the thing that many sales people do is try to force too much conversation into a small time frame. That causes them to be "salespersons" instead of "normal" conversers. I suspect you are just executing the job of a competent salesperson and doing it exactly like the master teachers of the trade would advise. One of the major differences in the various approaches would be your decision to "not ask for the order". You are selecting an extremely low pressure tactic but it IS a sales tactic. Gittomer explains that a competent salesperson educates their clients and the education process allows them to make informed decisions. He teaches that it's important not to make the sale if the buyer and seller aren't a good fit. The book "Salesdogs" explains the different styles of selling and compares them to the types of dogs and their characteristics. There are Labradors, Golden Retrievers, who are helpful dogs. There are high strung pedigrees who require lots of pampering (Poodles etc). There are bulldogs and other aggressive breeds. It's a pretty inciteful book and fun to read. You'd fall into the helpful and caring category. I'm jealous about those laps. I really have to alter my mindset. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The hail storm had minimal effect on me other than wasting my time. I only know of one job that I actually lost because of the insurance companies. One of the GC's that I work for was doing a rebuild where a tree went thru the roof. I had given them a price to reroof the entire house (it was a monster and only the garage wing was damaged). The rest of the roof had some life left, but the shingles were no longer made and couldn't be matched. The hail storm hit before I started and the insurance company wanted two more prices. They both came in considerably lower. The GC offered to waive his fee on my price if I could drop my price enough to match the other prices. I couldn't do it.
There's some kind of law suit in progress now due to the damage that was caused to the previously undamaged part of the house that occured when it stormed on a Sunday when the roof was in progress. Seems the roofing company the insurance company rammed down everyone's throat had let their liability coverage lapse.
Other than that, the problem was constant calls that weren't gonna net me anything, and the supply houses were a mess. To keep my shinglers busy, I started taking repair jobs which are usually lucrative. But when my guys had to stand in line for 2 hrs to get one bundle of shingles for a repair, the profit got sucked out of that. Then, the temporary help got hired and none of the orders were correct or complete.
So, I went back to selling what I'd rather be doing. We're starting a job next week for the largest new home builder around. Not working on his spec stuff, just his custom homes. We'll be doing a copper turret which I'll document here. I've also picked up 4 or 5 other custom home builders that do 4-5 houses a year. And I got back two of my former remodel clients that slipped away for price reasons and weren't completely happy with their new sub.
In the meantime, I dissolved my shingle crew and moved the foreman over to work with Dale who needed skilled help since Sphere wandered off. They've got two helpers and are wearing me out fabricating for them. Quite a crew.
I got together with two of my competitors and we hired a crack shingle crew away from another competitor. None of us need them all the time, but all of us need them some of the time. It's working out well so far.
I do sell all the time. But, I'm not interested in just selling anything to make a sale. I try to sell the customer what they need, not always what they want. If they want to do something (that I consider) stupid, they'll have to get someone else to play along. My favorite line to architect's that insist on having me do something I'm uncomfortable with is "Sure, I'll be glad to do it your way if you'd like to cover the warranty". Works every time.
I prefer to have that layer between me and the customer. Also, once I get the GC sold on us, I've just sold a bunch of jobs. Then, all I have to do is do the work and send the bill.
http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
frammer.... right side of the keyboard
the ENTER key
helps olde eyes... not that i'm discriminating against olde age mind youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I take offense at your assertion that I can't keep up with 20 year olds. My age has nothing to do with wether I can do the job or not. I worked for a high volumn framming contractor until 1.5 years ago when i had a disableing car accident. You're discriminating based on age. If you accept that each job applicant is an individual, you will find people in every age cat. can or can't do the job. You probably disciminate based on sex also. Please, don't call me a lyar. I called 27 contr. and only 2 responded. This in wy way of thinking is that when times are good as in the past several years, contractors become lazy. they rationalize that each phone call is not that important. This also is the result of not having a true slowdown in the economy since 1990-1991. Believe me, you have time to return each phone call, even if it is to tell them you are tobusy. When the phone stops ringing, these calls you didn't make will come back to haunt you.
frammer52,
take a deep breath---and please explain to me
EXACTLY--- how am I discriminating?------when I talk to the applicants and explain how we work, what we will be doing and the pace we will work at( rather relaxed pace actually)----------the older applicant says that this isn't the job he is interested in.
SOOOOOOO--- how am I discriminating ? the applicant is deciding this isn't the job for him.
as far as discriminating based on sex---don't make me laugh. In 20 plus years i have had exactly one woman call interested in a job---and when she found out she would actually have to get on the roof--instead of just cleaning up the yard--SHE decided she wasn't interested either.
you say you can keep up with the 20 year olds as a frammer--perhaps you can-- I wouldn't know--and it doesn't matter to me at all if you can
what I can tell you is-- i spent a winter working on a framing crew in my early 30's( I am 45 now)- i was low man on the totem pole---so I did all the grunt work--(happily-- i had 2 very small children and a stay at home wife to support)------------Framing was an active trade----but athletically it simply doesn't come close to roofing non walkable houses every day--there is NO comparison.ZERO--not even close.
you took time from your busy schedule to lecture me on the importance of returning calls.-- if you read my posts--you will see that I outlined exactly HOW I return calls.---Grant described a hailstorm he encountered last year-------I encountered i believe the same storm--June 8, 2007. My home sits on ground zero for the hail storm in this town--I spent the better part of last year starting work at 5:00 am--and working untill 10:30 pm 7 days a week. I personally worked roof top each day from about 8:00 am untill roughly 3:00 most days---and the rest of the day was spent estimating, inspecting, returning phone calls from the truly panic stricken, ordering materials etc.-- I can't tell you how many people i talked to that were in actual TEARS- because they just didn't know what to do
most of that work---the inspections and the consultations and the hand-holding--was for FREE---because thse are my people-my friends, my neighbors, the parents of kids coached years ago--the parents of my wifes' students--people would knock on my door and BEG me to look at their roof
so please--don't embarrass your self by lecturing me on returning phone calls or customer service----as Grant pointed out---most people don't have the SLIGHTEST concept of what these storms are like.
I will tell you something else----a year or so ago-- i was talking here on breaktime about going into semi retirement. I had been gradually moving my buisness towards small carpentry jobs-windows, doors, siding repairs, soffit and fascia work-and away from roofing-- i pretty much figured to be just about semi retired by this summer.
instead- i am investing a buttload in trucks, dump trailers, scaffolding,guns, air compressors,renting shop and yard space, hiring experienced guys, training in-experienced guys etc.---don't think I am doing it for ME.- i am doing it to take care of my family,friends,neighbors--my COMMUNITY where i have lived, gone to school and worked for 45 years. when all is said and done--- i won't make that much money off it.- i am not doing it for the money--but i wouldn't expect you to understand WHY i am doing it
so don't bother lecturing me on returning phone calls, LOL
Stephen
I was trying to semi retire when our storm hit, I have so many old trusted customers i feel i must take care of them but i cant be everywhere. I only have time to help the people that helped me.
don't make me laugh. Roofing is not harder than framing. I was in the roofing and siding business for 17 years before I started framing. I hace installed many thousands of squares of shingles. Leaving the business back in 1992 was not by choice. Upstate NY enered into a deep recession and could not find any work. I traveled 1-1.5 hrs each way to find work with a production framing crew. Maybe I came down too hard on you, but back when I was in my early 40's contractors would not hire me because of my age. I am not saying that you do not return phone calls, but this industry has a very bad reputation for not returning phone calls. Ps. one of my best roofers was female, trained by her father. All I was trying to say is to not prejudge.
If that ad ran in my local paper, I think I would actually answer it. Even though I have my own business, and I'm busy.
I would expect to listen well, work hard and learn something valuable, and from your posts and articles I know I would. I often read FHB, read an article from regulars like Mike G or Rick A or Haun (who's in my area actually) and think, "Damn, If I could work with them for a few months..."
My father (housepainting business) used to ask his applicants to tell him a joke. They would oblige. Delivery and content usually gave him what he needed to know... apart from the basics, somebody obviously physically capable of the work."Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
"To get my roof done last summer i had to call in excess of 25 to get 2 to respond"
With all respect, I can't believe this. If you really had to call more than 25 outfits to get 2 bids to roof your place, then I'm moving to Utica, Pop. 60,000, to start my roofing career!
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
Believe it! I am seriosly considering starting a roofing co again. pop 60000 but 350000 wthin 35 minutes of my house. I believe that the city gets no respect from the local contrsctors. My house is 120 years old the roof is a gambrel and I think that they didn't want to do it because it is a little more complicated than typical.
huck i really don'y buy all your reasons
"I don't like your manner," Kingsley said in a voice you could have cracked a Brazil nut on. "That's all right," I said. "I'm not selling it." He reared back as if I had hung a week-old mackerel under his nose. - Philip Marlowe, The Lady in the LakeView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I cant understand 25 percent of the numbers people mumble to me. If someone calls and its someone i have worked for i try and call that day or the next, Unfortunately for my survival i dont return many calls any more from people i dont know, I could go broke running around giving free bids for shoppers, Then still get tagged as the "high" bidder. If i ever feel bad about this i remember in 30 years the number of people that called me back to tell me i did not get the job, i can count them on my hand, Not only that when i asked what the winning bid was for future reference it was a state secret and not to be given out. When i call back sometimes i get the phone slammed down with the person saying they already got someone...Tough... I might let some slip by but overall i have a 6th sense of whos calling for what. I NEVER pick up the phone as if i do they want me to run over right then and there, I want to arrange it on MY time. I must have spent 10 years running around on weekends for free away from my family, One learns
Man oh man, that was a beautifully written post - I have lived every painful word of it! If people could only walk a mile in our boots, and see what we go through. View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Here are my best reasons for not calling back this past year:
Dropped my cell phone in the toilet.
Lost my cell phone in a snow drift.
Cell network glitch (callers heard a "mailbox full" message, but I had no messages).
My house got hit in a regional flooding event...shut business down for a few weeks (van in shop, basement full of mud, windows blown in, fax/net down, etc.)...took a while to call some people...two referrals I never even called back...just too overwhelmed.
I am often too tired to make calls in the evening, I run like I have Lithium batteries--full power 'til the end of the workday--suddenly energy drops to zero. Some people are more like "Ni-Cads"--more gradual loss of power in the evening. I admire those who can get office stuff done in the evenings.
I wait and return calls the next morning...if I feel like it <g>
How about, "When it's 9:30 pm and I've just finished the day's work and paperwork, and set up for the next day, I'm pooped, don't like calling people that late at night and getting yelled at, and am not really interested in, 'My insurance company needs me to get three quotes, can you come out tomorrow and do a free estimate (to bid on a two hour job)?'" :-)