I’ve spent the last several years on the local library board – we have built an addition to complement our 1916 carnegie structure – more room and an ADA mandated elevator – we finished and took possession in 6/04 –
and upper and lower stair run was part of the construction – tile halways, landings, and stair tread – the stair structure is SYP 2X –
before we took possession, there were 3 cracked stair tiles that were pointed out to the GC – we talked it over and decided to run thru a complete heating/cooling cycle and see what happened –
so we have been thru nearly two full cycles and there are 1 or more cracked tile on at least 8 out of 17 stair tread some – a number of treads have 2-4 tiles cracked – two tiles have separated and are a danger –
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so it's time to deal with it - GC is not joyful - tile man is not joyful - those are expensive tiles - I understand - but -
is it common to put tile over wooden stair treads? I questioned that before the tile went in and was assured it was SOP -
what constitutes a satisfactory resolution? - I/we regard this as a warrenty situation and no one has tried to deny, yet -
the 'weasel' is the the floating of the idea of putting rubber on the treads - I don't like that idea, the rest of the board isn't going to like that idea, we don't want that - we spected tile from the very start of planning - we want tile -
looks like to me the treads with cracked tile have to be cleaned down to the wood and new tiled bedded - I expect this installation to be guarenteed - if it breaks, then what?
dunno - what am I missing? - comments are welcomed - thanks -
here's some more picts
View Image
It's clear in that picture that the tile didn't contact the thinset sufficiently. That's something you're supposed to test with the first piece you put down. Pry it back up and look to see that the whole back gets mud on it. Not easy to do if the coverage is good.
There's a good chance that the worst have broken and the rest are not much better. The tile guy needs to make this right for you.
-- J.S.
It's clear in that picture that the tile didn't contact the thinset sufficiently.
That's for sure. Also notice that at the nose there is very little thinset supporting the nose of the tile from flexing, which probably was what did in those cracked near that area.
The sharp edge on the plywood is a no no. Stress point ala big time.
Tile setter did a REALLY poor job (he didn't) of back buttering those tile. Only a matter of time before the rest fail.
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It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I think he said it was all 2x syp so it unfortunaly means the flex is causing the cracks, so back to the carpentry to to get in another stringer. Ug thats gonna be ugly.
Well' that's your opinion.
I didn't open all the pics.
I don't like the tile over wood no matter the species or dimension.
I stated the obvious based on the pics I saw.
David is a regular poster here.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
And make sure they use the full modified thinset.
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Nice looking set of stairs, to bad it's falling apart.
Sounds like you have been a very reasonable person about the defect. Yet to get the very reasonable resolve.
Fix it. So your going to have to step up the level of dissatisfaction.
Document all correspondence and let them understand that you are going to get this resolved, with them or against them.
If it takes going against them, it will be much more expensive.
So lets get jiggy with the fix.Not to mention it's starting to create a physical hazard.
Nice looking set of stairs, to bad it's falling apart.
Sounds like you have been a very reasonable person about the defect. Yet to get the very reasonable resolve.
Fix it. So your going to have to step up the level of dissatisfaction.
Document all correspondence and let them understand that you are going to get this resolved, with them or against them.
well, everybody is talking to each other politely at this point and it's in everybodies best interest to work it out - the GC is a nice fella - but everyone is trying to figure out how to minimize responsibility -
documentation is in a special folder - a certified letter has been sent, (I called the GC and chatted and told him it was on it's way) - the GC knows what we are setting up - the tile guy I never met - and it's gonna be an expensive, nasty proposition to make this right -
there's a bag getting passed around right now, and I don't wanna be holding it when the music ends....
"there's enough for everyone"
and I will mention that there has been no cracking of tile in either hallway or on the landing - just on the steps - -
frankly, I was thinking that the wood 2X under the tile had probably cupped to cause this problem - I had a bad feeling when I saw the design and questioned it - -
I'm gonna check the 'blueprints' and see what the archy spected - they haven't been mentioned yet....
"there's enough for everyone"
David,It all looked like a thinset problem until you wrote, "I was thinking that the wood 2X under the tile had probably cupped to cause this problem - I had a bad feeling when I saw the design and questioned it - -"Are you telling us that the tile was glued directly to 2x12 SYP rough stair treads? That is a totally bogus detail, and the whole stairs should be replaced. Properly done, thick plywood subtreads will work fine, but NEVER solid wood! The seasonal movement could shed all of the tile over time. Perhaps not if your climate inside the library is consistent year-round.Am I getting this right? (I hope not!)Bill
Are you telling us that the tile was glued directly to 2x12 SYP rough stair treads?
yes - I questioned it at the time and was assured it was standard operating procedure -
the building is conditioned and experiences only moderate fluctuation between seasons, and I'd guess that the treads are more stable now than when the tile was laid - in December of '03, when the wood had been in place about 4 months - and these would not have been conditioned months either....
"there's enough for everyone"
David,Whoever specified this detail should pay to have it done right. Could be the Architect, the General, the Tilesetter. It is the responsibility of the General if no one else owns it. The Tile Council must have standards that back you up on this. I am surprised that it is not worse than it is.Bill
Tiling directly over dimensional lumber is no one's SOP, unless that someone is a hack. I would not have trusted this installation even if an isolation membrane such as Schluter Ditra had been first thinset-glued to the lumber treads.
Take this question over to the John Bridge forum, where the focus is entirely on tile and methods. See if you can get some of the pros over there (not homeowners or GCs, real tile pros) to sign off on an installation of tile directly onto sawn lumber planks.
I don't care how dry or not that lumber is, or what species, you just don't set tile directly on it.
thanks -
"there's enough for everyone"
Stinger is right. Around here, even hacks know better than to put tile on lumber, especially in a high traffic area such as a public library.
DG/Builder
I do not doubt the experience of tile posters here, tile install may be the problem, but the problem may be stair structure.
As someone else has posted, and you question: perhaps you are getting too much flex / movement in the stair frame.
I'm gonna check the 'blueprints' and see what the archy spected - they haven't been mentioned yet....
Good direction...you may need the actual architect or structural engineer to inspect the stair structure.
well, I checked our set of prints (marked 'preliminary-not for construction') - there are wall sections and floor sections etc, but no detail on the stairs other than one print specifying rise and run (11" run, 6.25" rise) and a note specifying the tile type -
dunno what, if anything, more the contractor's 'for build' set has on them - our set was the last before the 'for build' and there were only minor changes -
there is a structural engineer listed at the side of the prints -
we have a board meeting tonight and tomorrow the/a tile guy is coming by to look (not the specific individual who laid the tile, and I'm not sure it's even the same firm - second hand report - the GC is sending him - we'll see)
I'm wondering if it is time to call the engineer? - or better, see him in person -
lots of dynamics here - I am not expecting anyone to volenteer to pull out the stairs and start over....
"there's enough for everyone"
Ya man it's a pain. You hate to have to go through all this.
The job looks really nice. As I studied, it just looks like the riser holds to no flex and then back ? 2.5" or so you get the lateral crack and failure. Also the 2x shows to be to the rear of the riser so I just think it must be flex causing the failure?
I did a job and had a landing that I wasn't feeling to comfortable with the existing sub floor and floor thickness, maybe 1-1/8" plus a 1/2"CB on top set in mud. So later in the project the guys son is flying down the stairs skipping the top 6' to the first landing and I'm just thinking there goes the tile job. It hasn't failed yet but I was feeling pretty Iffiy at that point when he was landing BOOM.
it just looks like the riser holds to no flex and then back ? 2.5" or so you get the lateral crack and failure. Also the 2x shows to be to the rear of the riser so I just think it must be flex causing the failure?
that's an interesting analysis - up till now my evaluation had been that the shape of the tread had changed - cupping one way or the other - enough to allow the damage -
I have been racking my brain trying to remember if there was a center stringer on the stair framing - surely there would have to be - there isn't anyplace to get a glimpse underneath with out destruction - fire codes and all -
I'll look tomorrow morning at the situation using your analysis -
thanks -
"there's enough for everyone"
well, the tile guy stood us up - 5 board members standing around waiting - had to be exactly at 9AM he said - 10:30 still no show - no phone - GC was out of his office - sec wouldn't give me his cell - (I have it posted on the bulletin board here at home) - nothing -
real unprofessional -
but I did get to play with the new imac computer for a while....
"there's enough for everyone"
You will have to adjust to counter that behavior, it's the standard stall delay obfuscate.
Even an idiot like me knows when somebody is digging deep into my pockets, it always gets my attention.
That's a tough situation as it appears most of the tile is probably poorly installed.
However, all is not lost. Many of the tiles will probably survive just fine, so once there is a little wear and tear the repairs should be fewer and farther between.
The replacement tile will most likely be more durable when set with a better quality of thinset, and simply, more thinset. The better quality thinset has a lot of grab and a little flex so the tile can actually flex a very, very small amount without breaking.
The worst case senario would be wood framing that simply allows more flex than the tile can handle and it all needs to be replaced with better prep.
Commercial tile installations are generally execuited using techniques and materials that are more durable than what is commonly used in residential construction. If you were to ask, it would probably turn out that the tile setter has limited experience in commerical applications. There are guidelines put out by various tile associations, all of which would condem the product you recieved.
Unfortunately, warrantees do not last forever and you'll want to solidify what will happen once the warrantee period is over. You could argue that the entire installation is flawed, but to save the GC and tile setter the cost of complete replacement you would be satisfied with extending the warantee period. That would be a good compromise. You just don't want to be left with an expensive problem that will continue to drain resources down the road.
Best of luck, hope that helps.
"before we took possession, there were 3 cracked stair tiles that were pointed out to the GC - we talked it over and decided to run thru a complete heating/cooling cycle and see what happened -"
This is where the accountability lies.
That particular point in time needs documentation, and the contract needs to be reviewed to target the warrantee.
My simple mind says that the failure is so bad and the time to failure is so, like immediate.
Now the fact that a little confuser like letting it go through a heat cycle doesn't change the fact, but by contract,now that's a whole nuther bag of lawyers.
When you set sail- just cause you may get an errant wind. Your destination has not changed.
Sorry for the silliness, I just hate being jerked around by- well Jerks.
thanks -
tile guy is coming tomorrow now - "I didn't know anyone would be there"....
found out it's the archy suggesting rubber - never have liked him much - way too much ego - he came with the grant for the project - liking him even less now -
well, I/we can match him for ego - clash of the titans -
I'm thinking if we end up in court that we'll 'win' - documentation is there - but so much time and energy and $ involved in that course - I just want what we bought, it's really simple -
thanks again -
"there's enough for everyone"
an update -
we met with the owner of the company that installed the tile this morning - we had 4 board members present plus our librarian, who is one sharp woman - -
to his credit, he didn't try any weasaling - the rubber tread idea (thru sources, I found out it was the archy that floated that idea) was thrown away by the tile guy unprompted -
not to his credit is his expectation that he can make this work - he sees nothing wrong with the 2X structure ("it's to code"), tho he allows that usually mortar bed steel structure for this type of stair covering - "...the structure has stabilized"
so, he proposes to replace the broken tiles (he counted 24 broken out of 68 tile total), using some sort of membrane between the step and mud -
Italian tile - may be 6-8 weeks away, unless there is some floating around in the system - maybe they'll match...
so, we are digesting this -
oh, and the motherboard on the elevator went out yesterday (18 months old) - $1500+, thanks alot, Otis....
David, the membrane is not a bad idea. The principle involved is "floating" the tiles, i.e. decoupling them from the moving substrate. It does not work for one tile at a time. And since 24 out of 68 are broken, I would rip them all out and put the membrane or other remedy in place.
Let's face it, 24 broken out of 68 is not a good batting average in the tile business... Good luck!
DG/Builder
24 out of 68 is a little worse than one out of three. I think it would be smarter to bite the bullet and do the whole thing over. Membrane isolation will help if it's for entire treads, but not if it's just a tile between non-isolated tiles.
-- J.S.