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Fed Stim energy retrofits for low income

madmadscientist | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on March 18, 2009 12:39pm

I know I’m on this stimulus package thing lately but…

I was just reading that there is something like a $4.5B set aside in this latest stimulus bill for energy retro-fitting low income households.  Not sure if that means SFH, projects, apartment buildings or what?

This seems like a good idea on the surface, the lower your income the less you can afford high heating bills.

From this site it seems like everyone agrees that fiberglas batt insulation is worthless and that for a little be more money you can get much more superior performance with blown in cellulose and then for a lot more money you can get blow in closed cell spray foam.

Assuming the programs don’t completely fall prey to corruption and graft which methods do y’all think should be employed?

Best bang for the buck energy retro-fit ideas for low income households?

Daniel Neumansky

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

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  1. JohnT8 | Mar 18, 2009 12:46am | #1

    Best bang for the buck energy retro-fit ideas for low income households?

    I don't know the guidelines of the stimulus, but around here the best bang for buck is typically insulation.  Take that attic from R13 to R60 and see if that doesn't make a change.

    Depending on the building, perhaps an even BIGGER bang for the buck is a case of caulk.  Seal all those cracks.

    New windows get a lot of press, but unless you've got really bad windows currently, you're only going to get so much out of newer windows... for a whole lotta $$.

     

    jt8

    lotsa worse things happen to better people than me every day. --Snort

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | Mar 18, 2009 02:43am | #3

      Hey that makes sense.

      For existing households knocking holes in the walls to fill them is going to be waaay harder than just blowing in cellulose into the attic.

      Ya and a case of caulk for all the outside and inside cracks.

      Not any where near as exciting as closed cell spray foam.

      New windows don't really make sense...maybe retrofitting an external storm?

      Daniel Neumansky

      Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

      Oakland CA 

      Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

  2. DanH | Mar 18, 2009 02:22am | #2

    Usually the biggest "bang for the buck" is sealing. After that it's a toss-up on attic insulation vs more efficient furnaces. (Likely some of the furnaces in these places are 60% units.)

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | Mar 18, 2009 02:45am | #4

      And sealing would be what exactly?

      going around the outside of the house and filling every crack with caulk?

      Daniel Neumansky

      Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

      Oakland CA 

      Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

      1. DanH | Mar 18, 2009 03:16am | #5

        Depends on the type of construction, which depends on the location. Just weatherstripping around the doors and windows can work wonders.Of course, it's labor-intensive, but the sort of thing that can be partially done with volunteer labor.
        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

        1. User avater
          madmadscientist | Mar 18, 2009 11:10pm | #17

          Depends on the type of construction, which depends on the location. Just weatherstripping around the doors and windows can work wonders.

          Of course, it's labor-intensive, but the sort of thing that can be partially done with volunteer labor.

          They're talking about job creation so I imagine this type of work will not be done free.  Probably a bunch of marginally employeed folks working hourly.  Not a bad thing but hopefully they will get training to do it intelligently.

           

          Daniel Neumansky

          Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

          Oakland CA 

          Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

      2. User avater
        jonblakemore | Mar 18, 2009 09:43pm | #11

        "And sealing would be what exactly?

        going around the outside of the house and filling every crack with caulk?"

        That may save you some money. Sealing everything with caulk may also kill your building because of rot, condensation, etc.

        I wonder what the long term ramifications of all this retrofit work will be. Giving a $8/hr. high school sophomore a caulk gun, a pallet of caulk, and a summer would have the potential to harm a lot of buildings.

        In order to do the best sealing job, one needs to truly understand how a building works, but I'm afraid there aren't too many of those people out there. 

        Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

  3. shawncal | Mar 18, 2009 03:24pm | #6

    I'm curious how this "weatherization" money is allocated.  Does anyone know who oversees the programs, who gets hired to do it, and what the criteria are?

     

    Shawn
    1. DanH | Mar 18, 2009 03:28pm | #7

      I would guess the money is to be given as grants to outfits like Habitat.
      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

    2. User avater
      madmadscientist | Mar 18, 2009 11:12pm | #18

      I'm curious how this "weatherization" money is allocated.  Does anyone know who oversees the programs, who gets hired to do it, and what the criteria are?

      The money gets doled out as grants to state and local energy offices where those offices get to decide how to spend the money.  Some will be spent as rebate money for people buying energy star appliances and some sorts of weatherization stuff I think.  A lot will go towards upgrading public spaces for energy efficency I believe.

      Some is earmarked specifically for energy retro fits for the poor and I believe they won't be charged for this-or a minimal fee.

       

      Daniel Neumansky

      Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

      Oakland CA 

      Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

      1. DaveRicheson | Mar 20, 2009 02:24pm | #21

        >>Some is earmarked specifically for energy retro fits for the poor and I believe they won't be charged for this-or a minimal fee.

        I'm curiouse about that.

         What are the requirements for qualifying ? Are ther federal guidlines or is it left to state and local agencies ?

         

        1. DanH | Mar 20, 2009 02:32pm | #22

          Probably income guidelines. Eg, 150% of federal poverty levels. But likely the standards are set at a state level.The sad thing is that folks that rent (which is the great majority of low income people) don't benefit from this, even though many of them live in drafty homes & have to pay their own utilities. That's a tough nut to crack -- pressuring the landlords too much just closes the properties, and giving aid to landlords is political poison.
          The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

          1. MartinHolladay | Mar 22, 2009 01:56pm | #23

            Dan,

            You're wrong. The low-income weatherization program is not new; it's decades old. Here in Vermont, and in most (if not all) states with low-income weatherization programs, renters can apply for free weatherization work. The landlords must sign a document agreeing for the work to be performed, but the work is done at no charge to the landlord or the renters. While some people grumble that this benefits greedy landlords, the fact of the matter is that the program has helped thousands of low-income renters, and reduced our society's dependence (slightly) on imported fossil fuels.

             

          2. DanH | Mar 22, 2009 03:30pm | #24

            I didn't mean to imply that it was new -- I know such programs have been around for years.I'm glad to hear that they've worked out how to benefit renters.
            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

          3. cargin | Mar 22, 2009 04:42pm | #25

            All

            In the mid 90's I worked for a community action agency (Mid-Sioux) in IA in the LIHEAP weatherization program.

            Mid Soux served 5 of Iowa's 99 counties, with Head Start, WIC program LIHEAP among other things. The money came from grants from the state or Fed govt/

            We did a blower door test, then blew the walls with cellulose, insulated the attic with cells, weatherstripped the doors (not the windows), sealed air leaks like open stud bays in the attic, joist bays in side attics and sealed and insulated crawl spaces.

            We removed a row or two of siding, used a 10' long, 1.5" insulating hose pushed up the wall and a high quality machine to blow the walls. We used a 4" hose from the machine to the house and then attached either A or B pictured below.

            View Image 

            Caulking cracks in the siding was something that was done in the 80s and done poorly. I think you can do more harm than good with caulking.

            For insulating it did not matter if the house was owned or a rental.

            If the furnace was unsafe, then we replaced it for owners or installed flue liners to improve draft. If the furnace was unsafe in a rental then we could not do work on the structure until the landlord replace the unit. You don't want to tighten up a house that has a CO problem.

            The agency in the 80s hired unskilled workers and outfitted them with old buses and sent them out to wreck havoc and they got a very bad reputation.

            By the time I worked for them they hired contractors/ employees to do the work. Now all their work is done by subcontractors. Lower cost to the agency.

            All work was inspected (another blower door test) and if it failed you had to go back and redo things.

            The state held yearly training meetings and set standards that determined how most of the work was performed.

            I have to laugh at door and window weatherstipping done by unskilled workers.

            Windows are tough to weatherstrip properly and still operate smoothly. It's not hard to screw some Q-lon around a door, but it is difficult to install a new threshold and cut the door to fit it precisely.

            Most of these homes have very poor doors and often times the carpet or flooring is too high for a simple sweep.

            Many low income people are very poor consumers of energy. Their lives are so chaotic that they don't pay attention to the simplest of things. People would complaing that a room was so cold.

            The windows were not fully shut and latched, the storm windows were left open, broken glass was not replaced, furnace filters were almost never changed and window AC units were left in year round with no attempt to seal around them.

            That's my 2 cents.

            Rich

             

             

             

             

          4. User avater
            madmadscientist | Mar 22, 2009 09:29pm | #26

            Thanks Rich that was a very informative reply.

            If the work y'all did gets replicated with this new stimulus money it would seem that it is being spent intelligently.

            Wow, I'm impressed that y'all would replace a bad furnance that being a big ticket item relatively speaking.

            Did you not weather-strip the windows because its complicated?

            thanks again,

            Daniel Neumansky

            Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

            Oakland CA 

            Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

          5. cargin | Mar 22, 2009 09:44pm | #27

            mad

            Part of our pay was based on reducing the CFM. so several times we took weathersrip and sash locks and spent an afternoon tighening all the windows in the house. No reduction in CFM.

            The state knew that too and did not call for that work to be done.

            Not a good enough return for the dollars spent.

            Sash locks are a quick improvement to many windows and probably worth the time and money.

            Restoring our second Victorian home

            Here are a couple of pics our Victorian

            Rich

          6. User avater
            madmadscientist | Mar 22, 2009 10:42pm | #28

            Hey nice house.

            That fact that the state seemed to know what actually worked bang for the buck wise is encouraging.

            I can see a lot of insulation snake-oil salesmen gearing up for a major offensive on this.  Radiant barrier anyone?

            Daniel Neumansky

            Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

            Oakland CA 

            Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

  4. User avater
    rjw | Mar 18, 2009 07:20pm | #8

    Place to start chasing this work is through your state's existing weatherization program(s)

    At least in OH, that's where the money will flow through.

     


    "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

    Howard Thurman

  5. User avater
    CapnMac | Mar 18, 2009 09:37pm | #9

    This seems like a good idea on the surface, the lower your income the less you can afford high heating bills

    However, all of these programs require the HO to buy the changes out of pocket, now, and await the rebate/refund next year.  So, how is that going to work?  If you cannot afford refits now, how will you get the rebate?

    Then, there's the whole bit about where many of the rebates are only partial payments.  "Here, go take out a sketchy loan for $3600 or some such, you'll get $900 back from Unc' Sugar next year at tax time, promise."

    Now, the intent is laudable, the execution, as is far too often the case, lacks something.

    Trust me, I really ought to qualify, being unemployed and owning a 58 year-old house in need of upgrades. 

    Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
    1. DanH | Mar 18, 2009 09:42pm | #10

      I believe you're thinking of the rebates for, eg, energy efficient appliances. The weatherization stuff is, I believe, usually dispensed through local community organizations with no up-front cost.
      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

      1. User avater
        CapnMac | Mar 18, 2009 09:58pm | #12

        The weatherization stuff is, I believe, usually dispensed through local community organizations with no up-front cost.

        Hmm, have not seen any thing like that locally.  And, I ought to, from being on both sides of that.  So, it may be the money/policy has not got here yet.  Have not seen any calls to get signed up as either a provider or a recipient.

        Which gets us back to good intentions--if I don't know, how is the average low income joe?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

        1. User avater
          rjw | Mar 18, 2009 10:07pm | #13

          >> >>The weatherization stuff is, I believe, usually dispensed through local community organizations with no up-front cost.>>Hmm, have not seen any thing like that locally. Don't know what you mean by "local" but check this out:http://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/ea/index.htm

          "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

          Howard Thurman

          1. User avater
            CapnMac | Mar 18, 2009 10:18pm | #14

            Don't know what you mean by "local" but check this out

            Ah. <ding> mental blind spot--That's been wrapped up by BVCCA, who is not hiring me to administer either program <grrr>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          2. User avater
            rjw | Mar 18, 2009 10:48pm | #15

            Take another look - Ohio is hiring at "upper" levels

            "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

            Howard Thurman

          3. User avater
            CapnMac | Mar 18, 2009 11:17pm | #19

            Take another look - Ohio is hiring at "upper" levels

            Well, so is BVCCA, right her in town no less.  They are just not hiring me (and I can't say I'm really happy with who seems to have the EGAC job).

            Ohio is a wodnerful state, on average, but, it's a bit long of a commute for me.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          4. User avater
            madmadscientist | Mar 19, 2009 12:07am | #20

            Hi-jacking my won thread but..

            I know that Owens-Corning makes the pink stuff and dow makes the blue stuff.

            But who makes cellulose insulation?

            I just bopped around the web and was surprised to learn that blown-in cellulose is cheaper than fiberglas batts?  Is that true?

            Daniel Neumansky

            Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

            Oakland CA 

            Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

            Edited 3/18/2009 5:10 pm by madmadscientist

          5. User avater
            madmadscientist | Mar 18, 2009 11:03pm | #16

            Here's something I got today.

            News and Events <!----><!----><!---->

            DOE to Invest $8 Billion in Weatherization and State Energy Grants <!----><!---->

            View Image<!----><!---->

            View Image<!----><!---->

            Weatherizing a home can involve a wide range of activities, including adding insulation to the attic. Enlarge this photo. Credit: Karen Doherty, Ohio Department of Development <!----><!---->

            DOE announced last week that it will invest nearly $8 billion in state and local weatherization and energy efficiency efforts as part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. The funds will be divided between the Weatherization Assistance Program, which will receive nearly $5 billion, and the State Energy Program, which will receive nearly $3 billion. This will help families save hundreds of dollars every year on their energy bills, while creating approximately 87,000 jobs. To jump-start the job creation and weatherization work, DOE is initially releasing $780 million and will release more as the states demonstrate that they are using the funding effectively. <!----><!---->

            The State Energy Program funding will be used to provide rebates to consumers for home energy audits or other energy-saving improvements; to develop renewable energy and alternative fuel projects; to promote Energy Star products; to upgrade the energy efficiency of state and local government buildings; and other innovative state efforts to help families save money on their energy bills. The weatherization funding will improve the energy efficiency of the homes of low-income families by adding more insulation, sealing leaks, or modernizing heating and air conditioning equipment, at a cost of up to $6,500 per home. The energy efficiency upgrades will be available for families making up to 200% of the federal poverty level. For a family of four, this translates to about $44,000 per year in the lower 48 states, $55,140 per year in Alaska, and $50,720 per year in Hawaii. See the DOE press release, the Weatherization Assistance Program Web site, and the State Energy Program Web site. <!----><!---->

            DOE also announced specific funding levels for each of the states. DOE will award a total of roughly $127.3 million to Alabama, $46.3 million to Alaska, $112.4 million to Arizona, $87.5 million to Arkansas, $412 million to California, $128.7 million to Colorado, $102.8 million to Connecticut, $38 million to Delaware, $302 million to Florida, $207.2 million to Georgia, $30 million to Hawaii, $59 million to Idaho, $344 million to Illinois, $200.4 million to Indiana, $121.3 million to Iowa, $94.7 million to Kansas, $123.4 million to Kentucky, $122.3 million to Louisiana, $69.2 million to Maine, $113.2 million to Maryland, $177 million to Massachusetts, $325.4 million to Michigan, $186.1 million to Minnesota, $89.8 million to Mississippi, $185.5 million to Missouri, $52.3 million to Montana, $72.5 million to Nebraska, $72 million to Nevada, $49 million to New Hampshire, $192.4 million to New Jersey, $58.6 million to New Mexico, $517.8 million to New York, $208 million to North Carolina, $49.8 million to North Dakota, $362.8 million to Ohio, $107.6 million to Oklahoma, $80.7 million to Oregon, $352.4 million to Pennsylvania, $44 million to Rhode Island, $109.4 million to South Carolina, $48.2 million to South Dakota, $161.6 million to Tennessee, $545.7 million to Texas, $73.2 million to Utah, $38.8 million to Vermont, $164.1 million to Virginia, $120.5 million to Washington, $70.3 million to West Virginia, $197 million to Wisconsin, $35.1 million to Wyoming, and $86 million to Puerto Rico. <!----><!---->

             

            Daniel Neumansky

            Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

            Oakland CA 

            Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

  6. DanH | Mar 29, 2009 04:11am | #29

    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/03/26/energyauditors/

    Stimulus weatherization money has contractors gearing up
    by Annie Baxter, Minnesota Public Radio
    March 27, 2009

    Reducing energy consumption is a major priority in the federal economic stimulus plan. The White House Wednesday announced $37 million for state and local government energy efficiency projects in Minnesota.

    The money comes on top of an even bigger, previously announced pot of money. The state is getting $138 million for weatherizing homes of low income residents. That program already has contractors gearing up and making new hires.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

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