I’d like to hear your experiences with collections.
I currently have a builder who has not paid for cabinets in a house that has closed and has been occupied for months. I have had a good relationship with the customer who assures me that she is completely satisfied with her cabinets and there are no warranty issues.
I spoke with the only attorney I know in this area, who can’t help me with collection, but gave me a referral. His suggestion was that I write a letter to the builder saying I would have no choice but to pursue legal action if the balance remained unpaid and to send a copy to the homeowner.
The result was a nasty letter which included all sorts of lies and threats, including that I had slandered his company and cost them over $10K. I’d like my $6600, but I don’t know if it’s worth it.
Like to have some feedback, please.
Replies
I think it is time for an lawyer of your own. Maybe a little distance between parties can resolve the problem.
one time a guy owed me money and I dogged him every where he went till he decided it was better to pay up than see my smiling face ever again.
It becomes a thing far larger than the cash when a guy tries to pull the old stifferoo.
No courts...no lawyer.....just CONSTANTLY in the guys face.
over thirty years I got stiffed only once ....for 100.00 and that dude just plumb wore me out...I had met my match......you always do. :)
Sounds from his reply like he is looking forward to legal action or calling your bluff, one or the other. Time to hire an atty
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I dont care if its legal or not. I'd slander this guy all over town. I'd hang a sign on my truck with his name stating he doesnt pay his subs.
BTW its not slander if its true. He's trying to scare you.
Keep on this dead beat. Alot of these guys make their living not paying subs. Keep on him relentlessly. God is smiling on you if you see him in a crowded supply house and bring the subject of payment up.
If I wasnt going to get my money i'd sure as hell get my monies worth in spredaing his rep all around.
Edited 4/28/2008 4:13 pm ET by MSA1
SK,
Check your state's lien laws. You might be able to lien the project property on your own (or with minor help from an atty) for very little money. Then when the homeowner finds out there is a lien on their property, they might get a bit anxious as to why one of the subs who built their house wasn't paid and might spur them onto pushing the builder to pay you as after all, if they are living there I am guessing they paid him!
Mike
If you''re considering walking away from $6600 giving it to an attorney should net you at least something. It's probably too late for a lien and would depend on who owned the house when you sold material and who owns it now. Most times at settlement the builder is required to sign off that he has paid all his bills if there is money being borrowed. Lenders don't like liens.
Get a lawyer.
Time to sue the POS. Any lawyer can do it. You might check to see what the upper limit for small claims court is in your state. If the small claims limit is high enough, you can skip the lawyer. Collection cases are pretty simple.
It is fun in small claims court if you have your ducks lined up!
Lawyers are an option I like because I have a bit of a temper.
Yeah, I was hoping an attorney could do the talking so I can refrain from screaming or worse.
Right now I wouldn't push the SOB out from the path of an oncoming bus!
Thanks for your feedback guys!
I'll be contacting an attorney this week so we'll see what gives. Right about now I'd settle for a buck and a written apology by the jerk with copies to the the homeowners, too.
To those of you who mentioned liens, I've been told by more than one person that I can still file and hopefully cause the homeowner to pressure the builder. As a matter of fact, the HO called the builder's super when she found out I hadn't been paid (my installer told her) and was assured they intended to pay me. Exactly when apparently didn't come up.
I actually know how to file a lien, having worked for a realtor who manages HOA's. Not hard, not expensive, but not nearly as impressive as an attorney sending you the copy of one he's processed for you.
Thanks again. I'll pursue it as long as I have funds, which won't be long!
We once purchased a pc. of equipment that turned out to be junk (unrelated industry).The selling broker picked it up but we had trouble getting reimbursed, after many tries, I began mailing pictures of the equipment to all other machinery brokers I could locate titled "This is what so & so sold us and we cannot get a refund" Note that this was all true, not slander. Finally he responded with "what will it take for you to stop sending pictures?"
I think i might be inclined in your case to mistakenly fax a copy of overdue statement to all other cabinet suppliers in the area.
SK,
I would file the lien TOMORROW no matter what! Reason being is you don't want to miss and dates like Jim A mentioned and also because depending on the laws in your area it could last indefinitely. Which means (and you are probably aware of this), you will get paid if the house is ever resold while the builder could go bankrupt and you could not get a dime.
You can always remove the lien if you get paid by the builder.
I have learned talk is cheap and the HO was told a "line" by the builder but once you file that lien, that recorded doc can mean alot.
The only problem with a lien is that, at least in NY, you have to go to court within two years to perfect the claim. If the house is not going to be sold within two years, and it probably won't be in this case, the lien by itself won't do you much good.
It is also possible to sell a house out from under a lien by posting a bond for the value of the lien.
All this is to prevent the use of a lien to harm an innocent homeowner with an unproven claim. Probably not a bad idea.
Seeing an attorney is your best route though it will eat up much or all of your claim.
Schelling,
Interesting. Florida (where I live) has a bit more liberal lien laws. I can't speak to their lifetime but I do know they are easy to file and can even be filed by those who are not legal contractors. Maybe too liberal as anyone off the street can file one with very little effort.
But yes, we too have the issue with liens being circumvented even aside from a bond but a direct sale from one owner to the other with no disclosure. Once again, seemingly illegal but yet another way the contractor is rightfully owed money not getting paid.
Its really stinks to be "us" sometimes when we are owed money isn't it?
I still would do both, the lien AND the attorney. In fact pay the atty to file the lien and include a copy in hisher letter to the deadbeat contractor.
Mike
wonder if you could contact the bank that fiance the house. they might know something. if the contactor sign that he paid everybody, wouldnt that be fraud
BB,
Good point! If he signed a release to the lender that said everyone was paid up and low and behold they weren't...wouldn't look to good to the lender and you might have them on your side for collection.
Mike
Right about now I'd settle for a buck and a written apology
The $6600 comes off your bottom line. Just remember how much work you need to do to make a $6600 profit, assuming you have some overhead, material costs, labor costs, insurance, etc.
The threats could just be posturing - Trying to scare you away from legal action. I wouldn't let it worry you..A couple of year ago our company did something that I think was questionable. One of our larger lumberyard customers was on the verge of going bankrupt, and owed us a ton of money. The owner sent his lawyer around to all the jobs where we hadn't been paid for the trusses yet. The lawyer told the owners that if they paid us directly for the trusses that they wouldn't file a lien on their property. A heck of a lot of the owners did just that. I have no idea if that's legal or not, but it seemed to work. It might be something you wuold want to consider. You may get a larger percentage of the money than if you spend a whole buch on a lawyer.
If you don't care where you are, you're not lost.
It's probably not the smartest thing to do but it sounds like it worked out for them.It is possible that the lumberyard could still demand payment from the homeowner again. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I thought it was kind of a bad deal. But as I understand, we got $700,000 out of the $900,000 they owed us by doing that. (Got that 2nd hand - can't guarantee it)We certainly burned a bridge with that customer. They ended up coming back from their situation, and are buying from someone else now.
Blessed are the censors; they shall inhibit the earth.
Yeah, this guy is good at posturing. He's pretty impressed with himself and his company, and he enjoys talking down to me.
What your company did sounds risky, but if they actually did recover $700k out of a possible zip, it was worth the risk. The lumber yard could just as easily have failed to recover, and so might your company from that big a loss.
However, if the lumberyard had failed to pay, the result would have been the same. Payment would still be expected from the end user, who had zero to do with the situation.
Somewhere along the line these people lied to the homeowner about the status of their property when it closed. If I were the HO, I'd be after this guy big time to settle up. For all I know they have been, but I think I'd rather have an attorney involved so there's no question I tried to approach the HO as a threat, etc.
For the life of me I'll never understand these people. It's so easy to just do the right thing in most cases, so why don't people? Lying is so much more time-consuming than telling the truth.
He is probably lyeing to himself about how much money he is making.
We all do that to an extant, but reality must set in at some point.
I have a feeling he is working with a short bankroll, needs to be woke up about responsibilities.
I had to read your post several times to figure out why the builder is claiming slander. I think he's upset because you sent a copy of the letter to the homeowner.
Ouch!
I myself would not have played that card till I knew the builder wan't going to pay. I'd take a lesson from the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and try to resolve this issue and us the technique "allow the other guy to save face". By sending the letter to the homeowner, you negated this negotiating ploy.
I'm not saying you are right or wrong and I'm not saying that this scumbag nonpaying slimebucket deserves such delicate treatment but the real goal of the entire process is to get paid. Sometimes it's just better to play out all your "nice" cards before hammering him.
Your next step is to figure out your lien rights. Don't wait another day. Get a copy of your lien laws and figure this out. You don't want a critical date to go by. I'd probably just file a lien tomorrow but you need to be careful because you don't want to run afoul of the law yourself in the haste of filing something that isn't legal to file.
I'd say that judging from the reaction of your builder that you probably should run to an attorney and get competent legal help now. If your contract is proper, you might be able to recover your costs associated with this collection. As you can see though, the builder is already prepared with his own tactical response. Expect the same in court someday but it sounds like you have the homeowner on your side.
Good luck.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I myself would not have played that card till I knew the builder wan't going to pay. I'd take a lesson from the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
Never really did subscribe to that "win friends and influence people" BS. :) I'm a big believer in public embarrassment for the guy. He knows he owes money, its his responsibility to contact the appropriate people and make arrangements - at the very least offer up a decent excuse.
I figure I've been put out so now he should have to be put out. Probably wont win any friends but Oh well.......
Doug
I'd guess he's afraid of being caught out by the homeowners and that's why he's claiming slander.
He's also claiming lots of other things, too, that are emphatically not true and has probably been repeating them to anyone else who will listen.
In the past 18 months I've had to deal with several "princes of the building industry" but this one is the worst. He has since gone to 2 other cabinet suppliers, and I'm guessing he will keep on. However, he may encounter some dealers who have suddenly found out what his tactics are.
I'd like my $6600
In another thread, the one on 1099's and taxes, you mentioned that in the last few years you haven't made big money so paying your due taxes was easily done at one time.
This being the case then don't walk away from this money, hell that's not pocket change! And don't settle for a buck and an apology either.
I think the guy is trying to intimidate you with the letter regarding slander. I'd keep after him until I exhausted all my options.
Hell he cant give you the time of day when he owes you money but you tell a few people that he's a deadbeat and NOW he can take the time out of his busy schedule to sit down and right you a letter! Where was he way back when?
Doug
This might not be worthwhile since no one has mentioned it, but I will--let the builder know you will go after his bond. I have only had to battle for money once, when we repaired damage caused by our roofer and he refused to pay us for it. The amount was about $3000. He gave us the silent treatment until I wrote a letter stating that I would be contacting his bonding company with a claim for nonpayment. A few days later a check came in the mail. Either he felt threatened by this or he coincidentally paid just as the letter arrived. I don't know what state you're in, but here in WA if I don't have a bond AND liability insurance in force, I'm no longer a contractor.
Hadn't thought about that one. In another design job I did work for a city and was familiar with bond requirements, but somehow didn't associate them with anything but municipal projects.
Here in WA we have license bonds that are $12,000. I believe that if you have a claim for nonpayment against someone with a bond then the bondholder has to pay you and try to make collection themselves. If that happened to me I would lose my bond and be effectively out of business, which would be powerful motivation. Funny, I've been bonded for quite a long time and know very little about it except that it costs me about $300/year.
Just an idea. Was there a title company involved at the sale? If so should thay have made sure all were paid? Ask the home owner or estate people who they were and give them a call.
In my mind it constitutes fraud if you sign off and say that there are no possible claims for payment against the property. The builder apparently thinks that because he feels he's not required to pay, there are no possible judgements.
"He has since gone to 2 other cabinet suppliers, and I'm guessing he will keep on."How big is your town? In mine, all the cabinet guys (or plumbers, or electricians, or whatever trade) would know his tactics by now.Watched it happen with a plumber. Guy needed work. Each plumber he called responded with "I'd love to have your business, but I understand you still owe #### some money for a job he completed for you". Then they refused the work figuring they'd get stiffed too. Gentlemen finally ran out of options, paid my friend and asked him to return to do the work he needed done. That second job went very well with a premium added for frustration factor and cash on the barrel head. You can be delicate about asking your other friends in the biz if they've had problems getting paid by so and so. Amazing how fast a guy can get shut down. At least in my small town.
We don't really have that many showrooms that would do the type work this guy would need, and there are only a few independent custom shops. I can't think of any I know that would put up with these antics.
And, yes, a reputation for not paying does get around doesn't it? Unfortunately, this guy was a start-up, and I was apparently his first victim.
I did send a letter to the 2nd company he went to in order to dispute something he had possibly told them about me. I'm waiting to hear back what their experience with this guy was.
My installer said that he recently put in the cabinets for one of their homeowners, and the HO refused to let the builder provide or even have anything else to do with them. They got theirs from Direct Buy. This was after that house sat under construction with no progress for over 4 months.
My thinking is the title co insure the property to be free and clear and its not because you can place a "claim" on the cabinets.
They are bigger than you and will have the power to collect.
Best you get paid, worse you have to collect some other way.
If you can get someone else to do the fighting..............go for it.
The homeowner knows whats going on with her "stolen" cabinets?
The homeowner knows whats going on with her "stolen" cabinets?
Yep. When my installer went out to take care of a drawer front replacement earlier this year he told the HO that I had never been paid. It's not my policy to discuss payment with the HO of a builder unless it becomes necessary, and it never has, so I wasn't really happy that my installer did this.
The HO told me that when she found out, she called to tell the builder's super she didn't want any liens against her house, and the guy assured her I would be paid. Now, the super is a pretty good guy, and I'm sure he meant what he said, but it's not up to him.
In the letter I got back from the builder, he alleges that I told the installer to tell the HO that he should "rip the cabinets off the wall" because they weren't paid for. Builder alleges that she was very upset and didn't want me to contact her ever again.
Odd, because I spoke with her just 2 days after my installer went out there to tell her that I'd ordered her extra touch-up kits. She was just as sweet as she always is, told me she loved her kitchen, no issues and please come out and take pics whenever I could.
A whole lotta sh** going around here, isn't there?
With respect to liens, if you speak to a lawyer, have him/her set up the typical documents you need to establish a lien and give you an outline of the timetable, etc. I teach my clients how to properly record a lien and then they only need me when it comes to filing a lawsuit or sending a threatening letter full of intimidating jargon.
Thanks. I haven't looked at your profile, but I figure you're an attorney from the handle.
Actually, I have actually filled out paperwork and filed liens at the courthouse while working for a HOA manager. We had several people who were thousands of dollars behind in HOA fees, and the Board approved liens on both properties. I researched the property info and downloaded the forms online, filled them out and was done at the courthouse in less than 30 minutes. I don't know if it was the same type lien as I would file, but I figure it can't be too different.
I'm curious, does having a lien on your property affect your credit rating?
I'm hoping that my attorney can help get this resolved without bloodshed. I'm willing to compromise under certain conditions. What I'm not willing to do is spend days in court refuting ridiculous claims only to end up with almost nothing. I just don't have the stamina for it; there are too many other pressures right now.
I'm curious, does having a lien on your property affect your credit rating?
It may, and I believe it may depend on location but I'm not sure.
I do know that the HO will not be able to refinance or pull equity out of their home with the lien in place.
Please don't knuckle under to this guy. It's what he does, and he's been doing it all his life just expecting people to give in.
If you gave him what you promised then expect the same in return and no less.
Best wishes.
[email protected]
SK,
I agree with Eric 100%. Don't give in to this kind of "crime". Even if it costs you the full $6k to win, its worth it in my view.
Many years ago I had another GC try to take me for $3200. in cabinets I built. He was 90 days late in paying so I called his office EVERY DAY. So much so I was single at the time and almost asked his receptionist out as we talked EVERY DAY. This was before caller ID but she got to know my voice.
Finally after 4 extra months he called me personally and said I was an SOB for wasting so much of his staff's time and a check was on its way. I apologized for wasting his staffs time (sarcastically) but if he was a better businessman, I wouldn't have to. He said he would never call me again for any work and I agreed that was a good idea as I would never work for him again.
Sure enough two days later the check arrived. And sure I wasted probably half that in my own time trying to collect but I didn't let him get away with it.
Mike
He said he would never call me again for any work and I agreed that was a good idea as I would never work for him again.
As the saying goes...............sometimes the best jobs are the ones you don't get(do).[email protected]
You know, I wish more people considered stiffing a contractor or sub for materials delivered a "crime".
The HO's paid the builder for these cabinets, but he never paid me, so the builder has, in effect, stolen from them also by charging them for materials he never intended to pay for.
Don't you love it when people who have abused you tell you that they never intend to call you again as though that's the worst possible news to you! HA!
You know, I wish more people considered stiffing a contractor or sub for materials delivered a "crime".
The HO's paid the builder for these cabinets, but he never paid me, so the builder has, in effect, stolen from them also by charging them for materials he never intended to pay for.
Don't you love it when people who have abused you tell you that they never intend to call you again as though that's the worst possible news to you! HA!
Have you spoken with your local authorities about this. My builder was arrested for almost exactly what you are talking about. He filed bankruptcy right around the time my neighbor and I were closing on our homes. He fraudulently signed lien release so we got through closing but then the liens started arriving. He was arrested for theft by deception (I beleive that was the charge). Me and my neighbor both came out O but the subs that were not paid didn't fair too well due to the bankruptcy. Had it not been for the bankruptcy he would have been on the hook for the full amounts.
Do the homeowners have recepts or lien aivers from the builder stating that he has been paid for the cabinets. If so I would bet you have a pretty solid case that he has in fact stolen the cabinets from you.
He fraudulently signed lien release so we got through closing but then the liens started arriving. He was arrested for theft by deception (I beleive that was the charge). Me and my neighbor both came out O but the subs that were not paid didn't fair too well due to the bankruptcy. Had it not been for the bankruptcy he would have been on the hook for the full amounts.
Fraud isn't usually dischargeable in bankruptcy if a creditor raises the issue and asks the court to deny a discharge.
I don't know any of the final details of what happened with the charges or the subs being paid. I do know he spent at least one night locked up and filed bankruptcy.
If this guy has ben paid by the homeowner for the cabs, it seems suzie would have a decent case. At th very minimum she should be speaking with an attorney and maybe the local PD.
I don't have any idea what paperwork the HO may have. I wish I could ask her, but I'm leery of having any further direct contact with anyone involved.
I'm also not sure how much of this info is a matter of public record and can be had at the courthouse. I can access lots of records on the tax assessors site; as yet I haven't actually looking at those to see what's going to be available.
Wouldn't it be nice to find a signed doc that states the builder has satisfied all his obligations to subs?
SK,
To find any such document if it were sumbitted into your public record, check your local Clerk of the Circuit Court or whatever it might be called in your area. Here in Florida due to the really liberal public document laws, all such paperwork is available to the public even online.
I can find Notice of Commencements, liens, lien releases, etc just by knowing one parties name with just a few clicks.
Mike
Thanks much, Mike!
In MI, those would be internal documents that the title company collects before paying out the draws. If there was a construction loan on this, there is a very high probability that the builder forged the signature. Builders forge these all the time when they pay someone and forget to get the signed waiver of liens. The forgery is illegal but it is highly unlikely that anyone would ever question it because, after all, the bill is paid right? So, if the builder paid, the possible lien holder will not legally be entitled to lien, therefore, the white lie will never be uncovered. Your situation is different. When you go to the title company and explain that you never were paid, they would be able to go into their records and see that he SIGNED YOUR NAME. He would not be able to produce a cancelled check to verify his payment. This opens him up to a criminal complaint and possible jail time. If you've never signed a waiver and there was a construction loan on the property, you probably could scare him into paying you by telling him that you are going to investigate the possibility of a forged waiver and take the information to the district attorney. Thats a much different threat than you suing him for non-payment. I know if I had forged something and you threatened to expose me, I'd be risking jail time AND restitution. He might decide to pay and stop his nonsense. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Regarding the slander charge that the builder threw at you, Sandra Bullock had a house built for her in Austin TX, builder built a POS for a house. Bullock was on David Letterman one night and commented on her builder, even called him some pretty derogatory things, Builder tried to sue Bullock for slander at the same time Bullock was suing him for building a POS house.
Builder got squat on the slander suit and Bullock got several million on her suit! Same deal as yours, just fewer zero's!
I think the builder is just trying the intimidation thing, also trying to justify the non-payment.
Doug
What is the title company to do, check ever contractor within a 250 mile radius and every mail order supplier in the US?The is a proceduce to make the title company aware. That is called a lien..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The idea to contact the title company has merit if the builder has forged some waivers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Don't know why I didn't think of it before, and someone may have already mentioned it but, you should sue him for both the money and the slander (defamation of character). Really stick it to him. He deserves it big time.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Edited 5/3/2008 4:18 pm by Ted W.
Yeah, I hate to think what he's been telling the homeowners about me. Mostly I have a good relationship with the homeowners, and I'm sure they know a fairy tale when they hear it. However, this guy's probably been doing this all along to make himself look like a "big" guy.
Once I have all my info and talk with the attorney I'll be filing complaints with theh appropriate organizations, etc., and you can be sure all the HO's are getting copies.
I might be wrong but if this is a new building the title co would check to be sure all were paid.
Some years ago we had a problem with the water co had not been paid by the previous owners for a new supply. The title co took care of it cause they missed it when they did their paper work.
I think its worth asking them.
"I might be wrong but if this is a new building the title co would check to be sure all were paid."How would they know who has not been paid?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
If a lien if filed claiming non payment and the title company missed it, they would be liable. That is the type of claim they are insuring. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
But there was no lien filed. That is the whole point..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I understand that she didn't file a lien. That doesn't mean that the builder didn't fill out a sworn statement and need to deliver waivers. If he built this with his own money, then he wouldn't have had to supply waivers. If he built it on a construction loan, they won't make progress payments without signed waivers. They want to know that their money is going to the suppliers and trades and not up his nose. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
But the title company has nothing to do with that. It is the lender..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The lender usually relies on the title company to collect and verify the waivers. But you might be right, so I guess I'd check with both! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If it were me I would be asking for proof of payment to all subs and suppiers.
Its not easy when your owed money and they don't want to pay!
Check your own lien laws, it may be to late to file but I'd look into it.
I'd recommed getting your own lawyer and finding out what your legal options are. What's the max you can go after in small claims court?
I'd also make a game of calling him everyday, both at his office and his home. I'd call the local HBA if he's a member and register a complaint along with the BBB, and any other organization he may or may not be a member of. Stop by his job-sites from time to time if he works them, his office if he doesn't. Basically make it worth his while to pay you off. Call his new cabinet supplier with a friendly heads up about how you got screwed, maybe other suppliers you know he uses as well.
Not sure of the legality of what I said above, but I'd probably do them anyway.
everywhere is different.
that said ... I don't bother with liens.
gotta go thru the courts and get s settlement first here, I believe ... so why both.
I've also never used a lawyer for collections.
so far I've had very good luck going in front of the local magistrate.
here ... that's the first step.
you can appeal the Mag's decision at the county courthouse downtown for round two. That's where you should consider bringing in a lawyer.
For the magistrates, around here ... lawyers can be brought in, but they're not necessary. I actually won against a fairly big name lawyer ... knew it was going my way when the magistrate told the lawyer to shut up and stop complicating his courtroom.
I always type up a "recent events" letter.
Briefly lay out the monies owed and the order of events leading up to the nonpayment. That's mail to the deadbeat certified so they're signature is on it.
Everything I write to them ... emails included ... I word for the magistrate to eventially read. Some stuff he'll read ... some he'll ignore ... but the more you have down on paper with times / names / dates the better.
Having leteres signed for helps get it into the magistrates hands.
Gotta show the deadbeats had a chance to read it first.
Invoice ... invoice again with the "recent events" format ... then invoice again saying you're gonna go to the magistrates.
Me ... I'd call his bluff on the counter suit. And so what if he does sue. That'll just show the courts he's an ahole.
Ia ctually had one I let slip thru the cracks ... was too concerned finding work to cover the lost money than sitting in a courtroom. Gonna check and see if I can still file ... pretty sure I still have time.
and again ... I'll go thru the mag's first and just be my lovely self.
get it all on paper ... then just sit there ... and calmly tell the truth.
I can hold my temper in check when I know I'm 100% in the right.
let them get all worked up ... all lawyered up.
the truth usually comes out in the magistrates office.
Good luck.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It depends.It sounds like the job was orginal done for a GC building a house and then it "closed", either sold to the new HO or it was built for the HO and they obtained permanate loan. In either case there are title companies and loan comanies that looking over the deal and the lien will keep the deal from closing. A small amount might hold up a large deal so there will be lots of pressure to get it taken care of.And if you go to get a judgement in small claims court you still need to collect. In some cases that it not fruitfull or cost some more cash.OTOH a HO might not be cocerned about a lien for years and years..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'd be concerned. If they use the lien to foreclose the property, it could get ugly. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
How hard is it to force forclosure?
I'm not sure and each state would be different. I'm guessing that you'd perfect the lien, then use the lien as your means of getting paid. If the lien was filed timely, it would have the power. If not, it's useless. If the time is up, the title company might still like to know that a fraudulent statement (waiver) was signed. Someone had to swear that the bills were paid and maybe this guy forged the signature. The criminal penalties might be enough to scare the deadbeat into paying. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I believe what Bill is trying to say is you can lien a property while it is held by owners that owe you money. Hence the lien stops clear title from being convaid untill the bill is paid. A title company can do all the searching in the world to make sure clear title is purchased but they have no way of knowing someone is going to file and are not responsible.
If the builder owned the property and sold it to the new home owners, a lien filed after settlement will not be successful. It's not the new owners responsibility to pay the bill. If the homeowner owned the lot and contracted the build they would be subject to a lien and responsible for he bill.
If the builder signed off that he paid everyone there should be lien releases.
Bottom line, someone is on the hook, it's just a matter of figuring out who.
I don't agree entirely but I'm not going to say your wrong or try to explain anything. Its a complicated topic and every state is different. MI has a slush fund to reinburse homeowners who get caught in a situation that you are suggesting. The builders fund it because it's the builders who rip the vendors and homeowners off by running off with the money instead of paying. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Just an aside....the headline from the Sunday edition of the local paper read "HOUSES ARE AMERICA'S NEW TOP CROP".
Ok, now I know we're in trouble. We're trying to base an economy on an over-priced commodity provided by people like this builder and others illustrated in these posts?
thanks for the post, Jeff. Don't know the exact process for collection here; in fact, never have found myself in this position before.
I'm hoping what you said is true - that if I have the paperwork and calmly tell the truth about matters I'll be vindicated and get paid.
Meantime I am putting together my record of events and making some discreet inquiries into the dealings others have had with this same builder.
Do not connect yourself to a lawyer for a debt. of $6,600! There are lawyers out there who'll take your case but believe me, it's going to cost you more than the debt amount. If you insist on a lawyer, take them to lunch at least that way you'll at least have gotten a meal out of the deal. Sounds like you need to file a claim with the small claims court. Here in California the limit in monetary damages is $7500 but the amount varies between states so you need to check with your local court. It's easy to do yourself and if your willing to invest a little time you are likely to be successful and if the contractor is legitimate and owns anything, like a business or building etc., you can get some satisfaction.
Here's a great legal info site for do-it-yourself types...I know it sound bogus but give it a chance and you'll at least be more prepared later and it may help you now.
http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/1F3614B0-6367-49F9-93EE65181A8017C9/catID/D80CF756-DBF6-432D-B625E7D1A29183D0/104/308/273/CHK/
HIGHLIGHT THE SITE URL AND CLICK [Ctrl] [C] then paste into your web browser [Ctrl] [V], then click search. If it's highlighted already you may be able to just click on it and it will send you to the correct web site. The home page is located at
http://www.nolo.com
If you go to the home page, down at the bottom of the page they have various category's, under one of them you should find a section marked
"Rights and Disputes," click on it and it expands to another section titled "Small Claims," click on that and you can get some good info. Note: Nolo sells a book titled, "Represent Yourself in Court," that might also be of interest since it guides you through the whole process of filing a small claims action, what to say and do as well as what to record and bring with you to court. It even guides you through the "How to Collect your money" through legal channels.
Don't give up, this clown owes you money so don't let his little idiotic rant about slandering his company intimidate you into backing down. It sounds like he's claiming to own a company and it that's true, it's all the better because then your guaranteed to collect what's due you.
Locally, if you win in small claims against an established business and they refuse to pay up, for a small service fee and filling out a form with the court, you can arrange for the county sheriff meets you at the business and together you walk in and you can legally put your hands on property or money to satisfy the debt. Imagine his/her look when you walk in with "The Badge" and take what's yours! Every state has a "small claims" court it just varies as to the amount your able to collect and it may not be enough to satisfy your $6,600 claim but something is better than a kick in the teeth. At the very least, you might want to get the book and prepare yourself the next encounter with injustice.
Alternately, if you know an attorney, for a fee they will send the guy a letter that might shake some money loose but that may or may not work. At least you'll get some satisfaction knowing that you tried to get your money, rolling over cause the fool sends out a letter of intimidation will get you nothing. I say, use the information that he's already confirmed about business ownership and "play him like a violin" all the way to court.
Thanks for the post - looks like some really good info.
I am an info-finder at heart; I have always loved researching and was planning to do some serious investigation about this stuff. This will give me a good start.
This company is an LLC and builder is listed as "Managing Member". I know exactly which member that would be.....
I know 2 attorneys besides the one that I was referred to, but haven't had any contact with either in some time. I'm hoping one of the 3 will be able to shake this loose with a letter for a fee I can afford.
The guy's a jerk, but all I want is what's due me on this project. I've tried to work this out with him, but every time I hear from him it's some new problem I've caused. He's lied so much about one subject that he's forgotten what he said and is now accusing me of causing frustration and confusion to customers that he previously said I never contacted. If you're going to lie, you have to learn to keep up with what you say!
"This company is an LLC and builder is listed as "Managing Member". "That might be a problem. It is possible that the only assest that the LLC has is th magnetic sign on his truck.That is why I said to Jeff, if a bank or title company is envolved, they a lien a a good way to go.In my area the county Record of Deeds has the deeds, liens, mortgages, reconvances, etc online.They also have a separate UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) file."The Uniform Commercial Code for the State of Missouri has been substantially revised with the passage of Revised Article 9. The Code applies to all transactions which are intended to create a security interest in personal property or fixtures located in Missouri. Banks, mortgage companies and leasing companies file the largest volume of these liens."And the circuit court handles lawsuite and criminal cases. And a summary of that information is online.I would check the deeds for activities on his current and last jobs. And also a search on his name, his wifes name, and the LLC to see what assest that they have and what has been attached.Likewies a UCC search and a circuit court search.That will give you some ideas of who you are dealing with..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the help, Bill.
You're right about the LLC; he could have nothing I can touch materially.
However, I plan to check out as much of the documentation that's available to me on the sale. Reading all of these posts has given me lots of areas to check out, and I think that the title company or bank is a good bet.
And, even if I can't collect on this, I'm sure going to provide this turkey and his customers whatever proof I can of my right to this money.
I think with 73 posts before me there's not really anything I can add. Just wanted to say that yes, you should pursue the matter. Not only as a matter of pricipal, but because he's got your money. He should pay up.
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See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
try looking up n.c.o on the net they are a collection agency i have used them in the past and thye got me my money they got 33% !! Not looking to add insult to injury but when you supply something that is that large of a dollar amount you should have gotten a deposit
companys name is n.c.o financial 1800 - 788 - 1007
as to the issues of bad mouthing the guy that will only get you self satifaction but no money !!!! i know everyone wants to be a tough guy but today he can sue you for harassment also !! i have been in bussiness for 30 years and have had my share of people like him might sound cruel but learn from it and dont trust anyone !!!!! as to the lein issue i think they are useless
Actually, I did get a deposit on this house. He paid 50% on order.He was supposed to pay 40% on installation, which he didn't, and the remaining 10% is unpaid also. About $200 of the total $6600 is the last 10% on another project, which I'm willing to forgo.
And, sadly, I've learned not to trust anyone and I've learned not to work with builders except the one I have a long and satisfactory experience with.
I agree that badmouthing isn't very helpful. I haven't been badmouthing the guy, that's just his threat. One of the customers and I did have a discussion about our mutual dissatisfaction with his business practices and I'm sure I didn't sound happy about not being paid for a completed project. He has no grounds for harrassment; he's just really pissed that now his customer knows her house wasn't clear when closed.
Thanks for the n.c.o info. Never heard of them, but I'll check it out!
nco worked great for me the builder owed me about $300.00 and thought i would just walk away it cost me $100.00 to get $200.00 !!! like i said i have been into this stuff for long time not that i am proud of my temper but boy when someone trys to stick me i really usta loose it !!! i have driven people off the road , tried to run them over with my truck even got away with shooting at someone !!!! its just so overwhelming when it happens and i usta bring it home truth be told lots of time it was my own fault for trusting people . The world has changed so much !!! even though we are contractors we are still human and subject to human error !! keep sending him bills & good luck !!! i know i am rambling but issues like this have effected my moral about construction !!! years ago people never fooled with me cause of my size and reputation as a tough guy NOW THEY CAN LOOK AT ME AND SAY GO AHEAD HIT ME ILL SUE YOU !!! KEEP YOUR CARDS CLOSE TO YOUR CHEST IF HE CALLS YOU OR YOU CALL HIM DONT TELL HIM WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO !!!!! NCO SEEMED CHEAPER THEN AN ATTORNEY !!! ONE TIME A COUPLE WHO LIVES IN THE SAME AREA AS ME STUCK ME FOR $10,000.00 !!!! WENT TO COURT WON A JUDGMENT FOR THE AMOUNT A WEEK LATER RECIEVED A NOTICE THEY WERE GOING BANKRUPT !!! SO I SAID OKAY GO ATTEND THE 341 MEETING FOR BANRUPTCY I PROVED THEY WERE HIDING ASSETS AND THAT THEY WERE LIEING UNDER OATH , TRUSTEE TOLD ME GO TO STATE TRUSTEE , WHICH I DID !!! THEY THEN TOLD ME TO GO TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE , THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE SENT ME A LETTER SAYING IF THEY WERE HIDING ASSETS IT WAS ONLY TO THE TUNE OF $60,000.00 AND WASNT WORTH THERE TIME TO PURSUE IT !!! I TRIED SO HARD NOT TO LET THESE LOW LIFES MAKE ME SLIP INTO MY OLD WAYS ( TEMPER !!!) BUT LOW AND BEHOLD I LOST IT !!! I SEEN THEM ONE DAY HIM HIS WIFE KIDS & DOG PLAYING IN A COMMON AREA OF OUR COMMUNITY DROVE THE TRUCK RIGHT THROUGH THE FENCE AND TRIED TO RUN THEM ALLOVER !!!! IT STILL STRIKES ME FUNNY KNOWING HOW SICK I WAS AND THE LOOK ON THERE FACES LMAO !!! BUT THEN THE STATE POLICE CAME THE END LOL
I recommend a switch to decaf...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
i did that as well as 4years of anger managment lmao !! the shrink ruined me NOW INSTEAD OF GETTING MAD I WANT TO SIT DOWN AND CRY LOL what has our world turned to
Excellent posts Woody! The thiefs used to be scared to steal off the workers. They wouldn't get away with it without black eye at the minimum....I mean a real black eye, not a tarnishment of their reputations. We have become to soft...I used to hear of builders getting their houses burned to the ground too. Maybe we need some good fire department training fires LOL. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yeah, order is overrated.Anarchy is so much more quick to the point!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Order would be nice...if there was some anymore. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Anarchy done in an orderly fassion....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Don't you think it's a two way street?Believe me, I don't like not getting paid. We had a good run up until the past six months. We're still getting payments from a customer, but it will take 2 years at this rate to get paid in full. I'm not complaining, though, as long as the monthly check keep coming in.Still, I can't help but feel that resorting to violence or vandalism makes the guy who didn't get paid just as bad as the initial offender.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I won't argue that...but the bad guy will be less likely to stiff the working man if he knows it will cost him a crushed nose! At least you're getting payments. After you figure out that there are really people out there that make stealing a living and know how to beat you at your legal game, you'll understand why I don't have much sympathy for them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I forgot to mention...the banks in MI and holding property intentionally past the one year anniversary so the mechanix liens expire. They know the tradesmen are so poor and unsophisticated in business that most of the guys will lose everything and the houses will become their free and clear. I also know that the banks are speccing houses right now in MI as a way to move their lots. Order? That doesn't sound too orderly to me, but I understand your point and basically agree with it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i greatly understand and appreciate your feelings on this being a 2 way street !! biggest point is that the legal rules always change while we are trying to keep up on products and giving the consumer the best of what we know as individuals ,are we all the best of the best, no way but even posting in forums like this helps us convey our short falls and proves at the very least to oursleves that we as individuals care more then most !!!!
my hvac buddy collected a debt with a gas can.
he got an old gas can ... filled it with water ... and topped it off with gas.
drove to the guys house, found him in his shop.
asked for his money.
guy said Nope.
so he got the can ... made the guy smell it and started pouring it around the building.
he pulled out a match and said "let's see who's quicker ... me to light this or you to your checkbook ..."
the guy ran and got his check. He let it be known he'd be back if the check didn't clear.
I asked what if the guy called his bluff ... knowing full well he's crazy enough to go thru with it ... he laughed and said by that point he'd be too deep into it ...
and that's why he brought a second can filled to the top with gas!
btw ... the builder did call the caps. State police came asking Q's ...
he said why would I do that? His check cleared ... I got paid as agreed.
they came back a coupla weeks after that ... after someone did burn down the guys shop ... guess he didn't take someone elses "bluff" serious enough.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Have to tell you, I'm usually slow to anger, but my fuse is getting shorter and shorter. I'm really afraid that if that turkey had said what he did in the letter to my face, he'd be able to speak (and lie) out of a lower orifice. I'd probably have pasted him with whatever was handy. I do wish sometimes that I had "connections" of the tough kind.
Do cool it, though, Woody. The world is full of a-holes and you'll wear yourself out before your time!
Let me share one milder version of payback. About 2 years ago my installer and I ran into another jerk, GC/builder this time, who got in our way and blamed us for anything and everything. The stupid HO would give him my (the showroom's) check, and the jerk wouldn't give them to me. The showroom contract was with the HO, who pulled this "I'm so important and so busy I just don't have time to....". To top that, the GC and his super would call me and the installer and leave us nasty messages or be insulting or arrange to open the house for a punch list item and not show, etc.
Well, my installer is driving his family to dinner one chilly afternoon in one of our "frog-strangler" rainstorms and sees this poor fellow stopped on the shoulder beside his Harley trying to get it to start. Mike's such a good guy he never passes people on the road, so he slows down and puts his signal on.
Just then, as you have guessed, he sees it's the jerk's super, flips the signal off, swerves back off the shoulder and floors the truck. His wife is just horrified, but Mike is not going back. He told her who it was, and that this time he was going to need forgiveness and credit for not having taken aim when he could.
This is off topic but I was just wondering how you work with your clients as they pick out kitchen cabinets, counter top, sink, etc.
Do they look at brochures or magazines or do they sit at a computer with you to look at pictures of finished kitchens.
Or do they come to you already having a pretty good idea what they want?
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Most people have a pretty good idea of what they want when I contact them. Almost all have pictures or magazine clippings of ideas of styles. I think the best customers are those who feel the strongest about what they expect in a kitchen.
For those who don't have their "agenda", we start with the layout and make any changes necessary to that. Based on their profile (which is just notes for me, not elaborate forms) I'll do a plan that works and include my suggestions for storage options like silverware drawer organizers, roll-outs, deep drawers, etc.
I usually have give them some brochures at the first meeting and some websites they can visit, and we have the money discussion. I try to avoid getting too heavy into the actual cabinet style/wood until we have arrived at a workable plan.
Because I have had lots of spec houses and previous clients whose homes I borrow, I've been really bad about pics. My digital camera has been giving me fits, but I'm trying to catch up on my photos now. The showroom I work through, unfortunately, has no displays to speak of and plans none, so on-site visits are important to me. I also have a pretty big clipping file myself arranged for style, hood types, islands, etc.
While looking at cabinets, I go over the cost differences for the construction options unless they have already told me all-wood. I give them my recommendations for drawers and slides and what in their list of wishes is going to stretch or blow the budget. I also recommend add-ons that I think will enhance their project, give them an idea of the differences in solid surf/stone/quartz/laminate, and so on.
Right now I'm doing only cabinets, so my input on other things like appliances or flooring is limited. Usually clients will pick their own appliances, but I 'll give them input on sinks, fixtures, and such. I have several resources for stone in this area, and I will sometimes meet customers to pick out materials.
After we have a plan and the cabinets selected, I price the job and go over the progress payment schedule (50/40/10) and review the installation process and time involved. If they're agreeable, the contract gets signed and we order cabinets.
Sounds simple, but one customer and I worked on his kitchen for a solid 4 months to get everything just right. I'd way about 5 weeks is the average for me from first meeting to order, especially if I have to order door samples for approval. That probably would make some sales managers cringe, but if you give me a qualified client and I have the product they want, I'll deliver you a sale.
Over the last 4 years with my current showroom I have suffered thru lousy installers, unprofessional office staff, cavalier attitudes to delivery, and so on. That will kill your sales, and it hasn't helped mine. However, I'm now working with someone new who shares my philosophy on customer service, so things are looking up!
Is that snoring I hear???? Sorry, this is probably more info than you intended!
No - not boring at all !I think you have a really interesting job and I watch the designers in Home Depot and Lowes and have wondered what it would be like having a job like yours.Thanks for sharing your info!I'm not afraid of work - I can walk right up to it and take a nap