Replies

1. 
   bkhy | Nov 21, 2003 03:59am | #1

   some use lath to secure the paper, but i like to run a dryline just above each edge,also up the rake with a nail every 10' or so. The string will keep the paper from lifting in the wind. I had a garage done this way for a year--no problem

2. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 21, 2003 04:00am | #2

   30 lb felt is ok... use lots of tins..

   we use a new material called RoofTopGuard II.

    it's a woven material, 5' wide x 200'... about  $150 / roll... and the roll weighs no more than a roll of felt  ( by the way.. that's 10 squares )..

    here's a pic. of the original RoofTopGuard.. the  type II is more non-skid

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
1. 
   SteveInCleveland | Nov 21, 2003 03:42pm | #9

   Who is the manufacturer of RoofTopGuard II?

   Thanks,

   Steve

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 21, 2003 08:29pm | #14

   steve.. their brochure says :

   Rosenlew RK Finland Ltd.

   try this:

   http://www.rooftopguard.com

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   JohnSprung | Nov 21, 2003 10:31pm | #18

   I wish I'd known about this stuff a couple months ago.  I'm getting thru the winter with SBS base sheet, which so far, knock wood, is doing fine. 

   -- J.S.

2. 
   migraine | Nov 21, 2003 08:11pm | #12

   Is this stuff going to be the begining of a new discussion of it comparibility to 30# felt as in the Tyvek/30# felt debate on siding membranes?  This stuff does sound interesting... does it breath, but not let moisture in, or what.  Inquiring minds(mindless minds) need to know

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 21, 2003 08:51pm | #15

   debate?

   except for cost issues, there is no debate once you use it the first time, you will forget that felt exists..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Nov 21, 2003 09:15pm | #16

   That makes you, Mike and Qtrmeg recommending this stuff to me. Ok, I'm paying attention... checking for a local source.

   Do you ever use Roof-Guard on the walls? Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 21, 2003 10:05pm | #17

   In patch situations. I don't think the cost is warranted here.

   Torn felt blowing off is more critical on roofs for this temporary dryin period. For your location in West Texas, the Topgaurd seems essential.

   I can still see using 15# when it is a new roof job and will be shingles within a day or so but this stuff is good insurance for re-roofing and for extended periods.

   I have used 15# and seen it stay for a couple of months before, when well nailed, but nine times out of eight, some minor tear will happen or be caused where carpenters drag tools and materials around on the tryin material. I used the topgausrd for the first time this year after hearing about it from Mike here. A portion of that job had to be left unshingled for five months and it never suffered from wind and sun exposure. I would never have dreamed of letting tarpaper go that long..

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Nov 21, 2003 10:42pm | #19

   I'm doing a metal "cold roof" over furring strips. I just bet 15# or 30# felt would be ok there if I got those furring strips down right away. We get some mean winds here from time to time but the way I've sited the house keeps it in a relatively still pocket. I've been up on the roof when the surrounding trees were bending over pretty bad and it was pretty calm where I was standing.

   What does concern me though is the SIP walls. They've been exposed long enough already and I want to get them wrapped, but it may be a while before the rock goes up. Basically, I'm looking for a durable way to get the SIPs out of the weather that will stay on as a rain screen back-up.

   You know, sort of a permanent - temporary thing. :-)> I may just try that string trick and see how my luck holds out. For all my daring innovation in building with SIPs I seem virtually incapable of trusting any house wrap as much as good old proven felt. :-)>Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

3. 
   migraine | Nov 22, 2003 01:19am | #20

   How does it hold up to 60+mph winds with rain?  Any ideas?

4. 
   Piffin | Nov 22, 2003 03:24am | #24

   When I took this photo, my heels were practically hanging over the beach on a NE facing side of the island.

   Ever seen a Nor'Easter?

   This place went through three of them in this condition before I got shingles on it..

   Excellence is its own reward!

   
3. 
   seeyou | Nov 22, 2003 01:47am | #21

   Hey Mike, have you ever tried Titanium? Similar to RooftopguardII, but is in 4' tall rolls (10 sq), is white in color and doesn't want to shrink like rtgII ( and is a little cheaper).

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 22, 2003 01:56am | #22

   no , but i did use Tri-flex.... glad i'm done with that... i like RTG bestMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   dIrishInMe | Nov 22, 2003 03:03am | #23

   So, RoofTopGuard II  is ~$15/square, 30# felt is about $7 a square (local prices) and 15# felt is about $3.50 - not including lappage, waste, etc.  There is always something better, but sometimes it just comes down to the $$.. Matt

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 22, 2003 06:31am | #25

   matt... in our remodeling work... the premium for the extra protection and speed under cover is worth  it... i won't go back to felt except for sidewallMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   SHazlett | Nov 22, 2003 02:43pm | #27

   folks,

   everytime Mike ( and now Piffen) start touting RoofTop Gaurd----I feel compelled to throw in my 2 cents worth.

   Despite what Piffen says about it----we tried roofTop Gaurd acouple of years ago and HATED it---we definitely haven't forgotten about 30# felt. roof top Gaurd does have some excellent characteristics---but it has 2 very critical strikes against it.

   1) We found it to be slippery as hell when slightly wet.

   2)our preferred shingle manufacturer will not approve its use under their shingles. We sent a sample of both Roof Top Gaurd and Triflex to our shingle manufacurers plant----they approved Triflex but would not allow rooftop gaurd. As Greencu noted----Rooftop gaurd shrinks slightly after installation and my manufacturer felt that might cause some problems in valleys.

   We also did not like the Triflex 30 product. installation was a pain in the rear. although a very tough material---it is very thin and for lack of a better term "curly". It lacks any kind of rigidity---and that makes for some intallation and alignment problems---it's just to floppy. ( the girls in the ads are smoking HOT 'though!)

    Greencu mentioned a 3rd material titanium udl. mycompany has been planning to try this stuff out in the spring-----the samples I have show it to be VERY tough stuff.Initially I like the grey color----I am hoping it might be a little cooler to work on---but I am concerned with sun glare on it. I do have some concerns about wether titanium UDL has  ability to hold  snapped chalk lines---( Roof top Gaurd also had a bit of a similar problem).

   also---to be fair---

   cost of underlayment is really almost zero concern for us on the size projects we usually do---it's an insignificant portion of the job cost.

   We are roofing almost every day---usually tear-offs----but we rarely if ever leave anything  exposed under felt over night.whatever gets torn off each day---gets roofed back in that same day. If my projects typically required long open times like slate or metal installations----I would have overcome my squeemishness about the Rooftop Gaurd product.

   In my opinion---If you are planning a project with an open time of say a month or less---your best value is 30# felt installed with button cap nails. hitachi makes an air powered Buttoncap nailer that lets us nail down 30# about as fast as we can roll it out----and it's totally secure for foot traffic.

3. 
   SHazlett | Nov 22, 2003 02:44pm | #28

   Green cu---we must have been typing at the same time !

4. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 22, 2003 05:15pm | #29

   Stephen... as usual...here's a couple more for consideration..

   RTG II is not the same as RTG.. the non-skid is superior

   RTGII lays flatter than 30 # felt and stays flatter.. to you, this makes no matter.. because you say you cover everything you felt in the same day... we don't..

    one night in our coastal dew is like a major rainstorm.. the next day 30 # felt looks like a terrrain map that the ATV's have driven over..

    also.. i've had a few heavyweights on our roofs.. in hot weather, they will tear out a 30# felt.. i've been thinking of ballet lessons for them ... but i usually keep those thoughts to myself..

   next point... RTGII is not a peel & stick.. we still use ice & water on our eaves  AND in the valleys .. so the bridge effect  over valleys is a non-issue...

    since i owe this whole thing to you  ( you started my search for these new products ).. our roofing supply house has started stocking RTGII... our other supply house stocks Titanium... tried it , don't like it

   Certainteed tech support told me i could use any type of underlayment i wanted... which again is the result of your prodding... i always take your input seriously... well, almost always..

   now .. i'll watch the mail for my sample of Titanium .... which i'm hoping you'll send me..

    a little aside.. here's the evolution of our underlayment search..

   we started with 15# felt... unhappy... then we went to 30# felt... unhappy..

    then we went to Roofer's Select , better than 30 in some respects.. it lays back down when it drys out... but still unhappy..

    then we went to RTG... some of the guys THOUGHT it was slippery.. so , unhappy

   then RTGII... very happy.. with a detour to Triflex... but right back to RTGII.. and now waiting breathlessly for the curtain to rise on Titanium... comming soon to roof top near youMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

5. 
   SHazlett | Nov 22, 2003 08:17pm | #31

   Mike,

   We used the Triflex 30 & the Rooftopgaurd in the spring of 2002-----I can't quite remember if it was Rooftopgaurd #1 or Rooftopgaurd #2. I do remember the manufacturers rep showing me a mason jar full of water with rooftop gaurd as a lid----and a roofing nail poked through the membrane----no leaks. It definitely had the ability to self seal around nail holes---but did not adhere to the deck---as you point out.

   but Mike----If my shingle manufacturer won't approve rooftopgaurd---I am not gonna use it. I use icegaurd in the valleys also---but if the rooftopgaurd isn't approved by the shingle folks---I ain't gonna use it. there are plenty of ways to void a shingle warranty without intentionally using a underlayment my shingle manufacturer told me straight out NOT to use.

   BTW---I seriously doubt any of your guys outweigh me---and 30# installed with hitachi buttoncaps is plenty secure for MY foot traffic!

    Essentially I am on vacation now untill late march---so I won't be able to spill the beans on Taitanium UDL untill then.

   also---what I am really hoping is that all the recent players in the icegaurd market will bring about a cheap icegaurd---something maybe $15/square.If that happens I will seriously consider icegaurding the entire roof deck.

   BTW---I have been nagging my shingle supplier to stock a brand ( Malarkey) currently unavailable here---it has a expanded nailing zone---much larger than other laminated shingles---and different modifyers that keep it more flexible in a wider range of temps.now the manufacturer ( Malarkey) is starting to pitch to the supplier also---supplier says if they can get 12 contractors( 11 others plus me) to commit they will start stocking in the spring. when I started in this business my standard shingle was a 20 year 3tab---then a 25 year 3 tab---then 25 year dimensionals---now 30 year dimensionals----and we don't even consider using anything less than a 30 year 3 tab or dimensional now. If I gain access to the new brand I will be making 40 year shingles my base model-----and If I am gonna do THAT---I want the best underlayment for it.

6. 
   hasbeen | Nov 23, 2003 03:24am | #32

   Any thoughts about putting rib type painted steel roofing over RTGII?  I was going to put a 1x grid over 30# felt, then steel, but now I'm wondering if I can put down RTGII and then put the steel directly on it.  It'll be over a ventilated attic so I don't need the "cold roof" (as far as I know).

   All I can find on the RTG website is that it's ok to put "any" roofing over RTGII.  No specific mention of steel.

   Thanks!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

7. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 23, 2003 03:33am | #33

   RTG pushes their product as a great underlayment for steel / metal roofing... at least it says it in their three-fold brochure....

   if i were doing a metal roof, i'd use it...but check out their web site..Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

8. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2003 04:00am | #34

   Steve, I understand your concerns if the shingle people won't OK it. After Mike and I use it for twenty years maybe they will come around for you, if we're not all building and living in Cloud's dome structures by then.

   ;)

   I never had any RTG but only used RTG11. One oif the things I was impressed with is how well it held my feet. That job pictured was a 6/12 and I walked both frost and dew on it with this stuff.

   I see 15# and 30# shrink in valleys too. RTG11 indicates in the instructions to lerave it lay loose there to allow for that, which I have always done with felt, cross lapping it for that allowance..

   Excellence is its own reward!

9. 
   SHazlett | Nov 23, 2003 08:02pm | #35

   Piffen----

   I will admidt one big problem with this----my attitude!

   I have a bug up my azz about the rooftop gaurd based on my impression following my first uses of it---I eventually threw out a half roll of the stuff( goodbye $75!)

   I had the same reaction to Grace ice and water sheild 15-20 years ago. standing on the ground looking at the material---it seemed like it would solve a lot of potential problems.----but after actually installing some of the stuff I immediately realized---whoa this stuff is INCREDIBLY potentially dangerous( slippery) I couldn't imagine a responsible company putting a slippery product like that on the market for roof top use----no matter howwell it actually performed.

   Remember---both the Grace product 15 years ago or so---and the rooftop Gaurd product 1 year ago were products I was TOTALLY gung ho to use. ( Heck I am the guy that suggested to Mike that HE look at using it!) I just can't respect or cheerfully patronize a company that would knowingly put a product on the market that had THAT obvious of a drawback---even if they later fixed it. Seems like a problem that should have been fixed before initially going to market.

   Edited 11/23/2003 12:03:57 PM ET by SHAZLETT

10. 
    SHazlett | Nov 23, 2003 08:06pm | #36

    Also----I know Mike gets on real well with the folks at Certainteed. I am curious-----If Certainteed directly told Mike NOT to use Roof Topgaurd ( just like my manufacurer told me Not to use it)----would he still be using it?

11. 
    xMikeSmith | Nov 23, 2003 08:17pm | #37

    if Certainteed told me not to use it... or any mfr of a shingle i was installing told me not to use  it.. i wouldn't..

     as to your first impressions of RTG (the  original).. i didn't find it any more slippery than some of the felts... AND i knew it wasn't going to TEAR out and frop me that way..

     on some of those sunny summer days.. i just don't trust felt, it has almost no tear resistance.. and the asphalt turns to liquid..

     no , i find RTGII to be a SAFER product for us to work with than any felt..

     now , as to Grace, i try to keep it off the roof, for the very reason you state.. besides , it isn't  very good at releasing on hot days..

      i like Grace for special flashing problems, but NOT for general applications..

     usually, we wind up with GAF Weathershield...

    I think your Shingle mfr. has their head up their butt by not authorizing RTG II

    but , i still like you.....Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

12. 
    dIrishInMe | Nov 22, 2003 05:58pm | #30

    Wasn't trying to be a nay-sayer on the RTGII.  I have never seen the product, so can't comment on it's use, but find it very interesting, especially for situations where the underlayment will be exposed for a long period of time - which is what this thread is about.  I did think that there would be people here who would like to know the $ differences though.Matt

13. 
    seeyou | Nov 22, 2003 02:36pm | #26

    My guys can also install RTGII or Titanium about twice as fast as felt with fewer cap nails. One 40 lb roll covers what five rolls of #30 felt does. Less trips hauling up the ladder. I'm also able to skip the rosin paper under copper with these products. I figure the labor savings more than offsets the extra material costs and the stuff won't blow off. There seems to be some question about using it under asphalt shingles, though. My understanding is some brands allow it, some don't. SHAZLETT probably has some info on that issue.

    Edited 11/22/2003 6:42:03 AM ET by greencu

3. 
   mmoogie | Nov 21, 2003 04:12am | #3

   I just covered two roofs with RoofTopGuardII that will probably go the winter until they get their metal. Distributor says it's good for two years exposure. It's been up there for a couple of hellacious windstorms so far with no problems. Like Mike says, 5' wide. You can cover your roof very quickly. Walks on pretty easily too, even when wet (to a degree).

   Steve

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 21, 2003 04:58am | #4

   and it is tough! Won't rip and tear like felt.

   Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   caseyr | Nov 21, 2003 07:06am | #5

   Gee, I thought the code requirement for roofs like that was blue tarps and old tires, have you given that a thought...

1. 
   TLJ | Nov 21, 2003 07:12am | #6

   It won't pass code unless you put on some bricks.

2. 
   joeh | Nov 21, 2003 07:35am | #7

   Tires don't hold well once the slope goes past about 3:12.

   You have to rope them in pairs and fling one over the peak. It's an awful lot of work, this stuff looks a lot easier.

   Joe H

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 21, 2003 08:26pm | #13

   yeah, yeah, yeah... youse guys are just one yoke after anudder.. is nuttin sacred to yuse ?Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

5. 
   CapnMac | Nov 21, 2003 09:23am | #8

   It's amazing stuff, felt paper.  I can remember seeing okies living in "tarpaper' shacks, in the sticks, in the late 60s.  It is easy to forget that the weather-proofing a good felt can provide.

   Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
6. 
   BossHog | Nov 21, 2003 04:35pm | #10

   The string idea (which someone else already brought up) sounds silly, but it works.

   Run a piece of string along the bottom edge of the felt, and hold it down with staples. Keeps the edge from blowing up.

   If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.

7. 
   csnow | Nov 21, 2003 05:57pm | #11

   If you use the standard stuff, those plastic buttons they sell for this purpose will help prevent tearout from wind.