I’m putting pre-stained cedar shingles on the wall of my front porch. What I think is there now is: sheathing, covered with felt paper, covered with thin (3/8″, I think) plywood, which is the (painted) appearance surface.
Should I put up another layer of felt, or just nail the shingles to that painted surface? Is it a bad idea to capture that piece of plywood between two pieces of felt paper?
Note: I can’t remove the thin plywood – I need to go on top of it.
Thanks.
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Replies
Bump!
A fair question that should have some informed answers coming
along any time.
In the mean time my uninformed guess would be another layer
of TP for good measure, and since it breathes no problem.
If it's sheltered you definately don't need more felt.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
See my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 5/23/2009 7:22 pm by Ted W.
Hey Tim,
Anytime I've put cedar shingle over a solid substrate, I've used a matrix that's made especially for the application. It's a woven nylon pad, similar to a scotch-brite pad. Not nearly as thick though. It allows air to circulate behind the shingles to get the moisture out. Gotta let them breathe! The stuff is available wherever you buy your shingles.
If the wall is sheltered and stays relatively dry, one more layer of felt should do you fine. The matrix is strictly a suggestion.
Good luck.
here in the Pacific NW we have sheathing, feltpaper, 1x2 horizontal strips, then nail the shingles on the 1x2s.
Material can breath and you dont perforate the sheathing/felt
How does water drain down past the 1x2 horizontals?
k
when you shingle it right there is no waterpenetration.
Just like when you install cedar shingles on a roof with 1x4 strapping
"when you shingle it right there is no waterpenetration."You belie your own methodology there. if you "shingle it right, there is no need for the drainage plane you are building.but of course no siding material is completely water resistant and water does blow into it. Cedar shingles more so than claps.i've done it every way, like you do, like the guy with the cedaar breather above, over tarpaper, and on solid wood. Varios good reasons for any method.Someplace like your Pacific Northwet or a wall facing the noreasters on this island of mine needs the drainage plane and breathing space.
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In that case, if you feel more comfortable install vertical strips first, then horizontal, cover that with felt and then nail the shingles.
In his case he has felt over his sheathing already plus a painted plywood. Waterpenetration will most likely never occur.
I personally do not like the shingles directly on a flat surface rather have a breathing space behind. this allows them to dry out faster if they get soaked.
I think everyone agrees a breathing space behind cedar (whether shingles or claps) is a good idea, but that horizontal strapping has always bothered me. I don't care how careful you are, water will get back there at some point.
k
Unlikely that it will ever be a large build up of wet water. just enough dew and beads to show up, but not puddle. Nontheless, when I have used horizontal strap and drainage plane, I rip 3/3" strips about 4-5' long and leave slight gaps at butts so water can drain away down if need be.
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"Waterpenetration will most likely never occur."Which is why for a small wall over old work I would just nail them on.Describe a different location and situation and I might choose your way or the homeslicker product.
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or you could use this
Thanks for all your comments. I'm seeing that furring strips or cedar breather are probably best, but for a well-protected porch wall, probably not necessary. Regarding tarpaper or not - does the TP serve a function behind the shingles, other than as a water barrier? A couple of possible benefits I see: I assume that the back of the shingles will stick somewhat to the painted plywood, while they'll be a bit more free to expand and contract on top of the tarpaper. Also, does the rough surface of the TP allow a small amount of breathability behind the shingles?Also, if Piffin is still reading this thread: Are you saying not to use the tarpaper because it's just not necessary in this specific application, or because sandwiching my thin plywood between two layers of TP is a bad idea?Thanks!
Both.
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if the shingles are installed under a covered porch I would not hesitate to install them directly over the thin plywood.
I'm not believing my eyes. Suggesting vert and horiz nailing strips, then papering??? One layer of 1x is bad enough, but two? And these nailers are every 6" for sidewall? Are you gonna just 'float' the paper from strip to strip. If so, please don't lean on it.I'm seeing a checkerboard of nailing strips that are now built up to maybe 1 1/2" - as with any nailing strip, even just one horiz application at 3/4" - what do you suggest at wall penetrations (windows and doors)? Are you gonna use 2x casing/trim materials so as to keep trim proud of butted siding? How do these nailers weatherize at said openings?I have remodeled here in the PacNW for 30 years. ASTM 15 felt is totally sufficient. The felt is the main line of defense against water penetration. Anything applied over it is just to beautify and protect the main line of defense. Anyone attaching nailers for sidewall shingles around here would be looked at with a wary eye.For examples sake .... I was asked to re-side a house a little while back. The house and shingle siding dated maybe 40 - 50 years old. They didn't 'need' new siding, they 'wanted' new siding. When we stripped those old shingles, there wasn't a lick of TP or anything between the shingles and the 1x6 shiplap sheeting. Not even at the corners. The sheeting was pristine.Please, someone, tell me I am misunderstanding this thread!
OK, You are misundedrstanding this thread.
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.... and the point I am missing please.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
Part is that too many here went over board recommending the very best top notch for wet locations when that is not needed for this recovery effort in a protected location.Then some of the exaggerations got sarcastic, which is I think where you responded to the overkill as tho it were for real.That's my opine enyhow.
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falls in line with some of my thinking.
I was merely suggesting the method our building inspectors want to see on any wall before they issue a permit.
Personally I think a house should be able to breath and not get sealed up with plastic etc. (see the dilemma they created with the Leaky Condo Syndrome).
Turns out now that the shingles are installed on a covered porch wall.
Just nail them on
http://www.cedarbureau.org/installation/wall_manual/page10.htmFigure 13 implies that you would be within the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau recommendation if you nailed directly onto the plywood.-tedited to add: Fig 14. shows what the vertical + horizontal strip approach would look like.
Edited 5/26/2009 4:17 pm by webted
semar .....Do you guys actually need an inspector to apply siding? and I thought we were over regulated!OP: Paper or not, properly installed, the shingles cannot, will not allow water penetration. Pay close attention to inside and outside corners. With 5 1/2" to the weather you will have a triple layer of shingles, 6" to the weather = most of a triple layer.The other thing to consider is how the shingles will finish to any openings, doors & windows.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
permits everywhere
first where building permits - ok, then came plumbing permits - ok,
next came electrical, collected on both ends, municipality and the electrical branch, permits to dig ditches, sprinkler permits, fireplace permits, permits to develop a basement, sump pump permits c/w engineer's stamp, engineers on site to supervise rainscreens and building envelopes
Other than your application cost - which is of course extra, you can spend easily 20 - 30k on softcosts
Semar - Unbelievable .... wow!Siding, windows, doors, roofs, decks under 30" in elev, .... no ones business but the owner and contractor .... here anyway.The moment structural, plumbing, electrical or mechanical is altered then we need permits. Even then I think we are over regulated and way over engineered.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
It is so that city counsellors and other buerocrats can take courses and attend conventions in Las Vegas to study how to bring tourists into the city. They just talked about drastic reductions for services but spend 18k taxpayers money for trips.
They just added a new permit: cutting a tree on your property will cost you. It is for the environment. This is very bad - cutting trees. But if you pay then it is ok
careful - you might get me going - <smiles> it is all a sham!!, rationalize, justify and make 'em pay.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
"properly installed, the shingles cannot, will not allow water penetration."Not true at all to make such an absolute statement. It is well recognized fact that NO siding material keeps ALL the water out. That is the reason we use secondary systems, like the tarpaper, and flashings combined with caulk at window and door opennings.
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This is absolutely true based on my experience. "properly installed" and attention to detail. I don't really care what the 'recognized fact' is, I know (as in I have personal life experience) my statement is true.Flashings and caulk are as needed and irrelevant to the thread. Door and window openings are also another matter.Personally, I would not install sidewall shingles without a minimum of ASTM 15 felt behind it, but I have seen with my own eyes where shingles have been applied direct to sheeting, full on to the weather and 50 years later not an iota of a leak having ever occurred. There is no harder 'fact'.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
Sorry Mac, but I grew up in your neck of the woods - a Fighting Fisherman, so to speak...Those 50+ year old shingles you're talking about were usually prime grade A+ old growth, all heart, western red cedar, probably 8+" wide with 1+" thick butts - you know, the cheap stuff! You almost can't buy that grade of material anymore.
-t
Cedar shingles are made of wood if you notice closely.Wood is not water proofvapour pressure and wind driven rain WILL penetrate no matter how much caulk, flashing and paint you use.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
not sure what to tell you piffin - read my experienceSig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
Certainly seems that if we put shingles on the roof with no leaks we can put them on a sidewall with no leaks.
:) - good pointSig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
No leaks in the house does not mean that no water is penetrating the shingles. A statement like that only shows that you don't understand the way wood shingles work to shed water.They absorb water until they are saturated and the wood fibres swell to tighten up joints. In any wind driven rain, some moisture gets through before that happens, and is absorbed at the sheathing. The sheathing also absorbs some moisture as the shingles are soaked to the back side.What Macbuz is observing is clean wood free of the stains of running water from a free leak, but moisture has indeed touched that sheathing multiple times over the years, just not enough to carry dust and debris with it and make a running water sign.Any time you tear off wood shingles after a 3-4 day steady hard rain, or after a storm event with high winds, you can see what I am talking about.
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Any time you tear off wood shingles after a 3-4 day steady hard rain, or after a storm event with high winds, you can see what I am talking about........ and the last time you did this was ......... ??Hmmm, there's a storm coming, think I'll go side Mr Jones' house today so I can tear 'em off Monday and see how they did.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.Edited 5/28/2009 9:31 am by macbuz
Edited 5/28/2009 10:05 am by macbuz
Looks like time for me to apply your sig line #2
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Don't get me wrong i would never put on shingles without paper behind, but i have seen a lot of jobs done back in the 60's and 70's right on the waterfront with lots of wind and rain....a well done shingle job is better than anything else.
Yes, for all practical purposes, that is right.But5 this started with the other guy stating unequivocally that absolutely NO water will ever get into a properly done shingled wall. I thought I might educate that making such an absolute statement is not true. But he's not even interested in looking at the real world findings from the building science site. He imagines that all they do is lab tests, and chooses to remain ignorant.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
guess it's time for me as well to apply sig #2 piffin.Not sure where you got the 'unequivocal' word, I believe it was yours. You're welcome to it back.here's my quoted statement:OP: Paper or not, properly installed, the shingles cannot, will not allow water penetration.Now for you piffin I'll crossT's and dot I's .....OP: Paper or not, properly installed, the shingles cannot, will not allow water penetration to the point of harming your home.Get a life piffin.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
While technically speaking I happen to agree with YOU but then I started thinking about putting royals over skip sheathing for the roof. Nothing does leak but then again you have tons of air circulation under and over it.
I for one think there's a lot of overkill in lots of different construction techniques as well as butcher work but for me...I'd ALWAYS use felt paper under cedar shingles or any siding really b/c if nothing else it heps keep air from penetrating and just makes for a tighter job all around. I find it just lazy not to use TP. Better a little safer then a little sorrier no matter what is scientific or real life experience.
By the way...why would it be any different on an asphalt roof over plywood...why use tar paper there? No water should penetrate an asphalt roof.
Also why use Home Slicker under cedar siding...no water penetrates the wood according to whats his name.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 5/28/2009 11:45 pm ET by andybuildz
Trying to stir before you flush, Andy?;)"Nothing does leak but then again you have tons of air circulation under and over it."it is the air circ that carries the moisture away that gets thru.
maybe important to define what a "leak" is for some. Maybe it varies.Most only think of it as a leak if they see water or staining inside the house. But roofers know that a roof can have lots of water sign under any kind of shingle, and even rot in places where the HO was never aware of any kind of problem from the interior. The leak only let just enough water in each rain to wet the sheathing or framing a bit, without enough streaming free water to penetrate as far as the ceilings.
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I think I'm the original pot-stirrer on this thread... apologies to all.
I got it going by asking how water drains past horizontal furring strips. One guy gave a couple of ways to mitigate any water that got back there, but still said no water would get behind properly installed shingles (no qualifications- he didn't say not enough to cause problems, or not very much. He said none.)
I disagree, but even if you were to assume that, you'd still have to consider what happens when the cable guy starts punching holes, the window gets replaced with less than ideal flashing, etc. etc.
Piffin responded to my question by saying that he would sometimes leave little breaks in the horizontal strips so if enough water gathered on top of the strips it could find its way out. He also said that the amount of water that gathered there under normal circumstances wasn't much- no streams, just little damp areas and drops.
Which seems a lot like like what other folks are admitting: "no water gets back there! well, not much, anyway..."
Piffin also got technical about the way shingles work, and he was correct, as far as I can tell. He knows a fair bit about it. He also gave a reference, in case we didn't want to take his word for it. He may have been splitting hairs, but he is right, IMHO.
In the interest of peace, can we all agree:
1) A perfectly shingled wall will admit some H2O, but it won't be a lot.
2) Given that flashings and sealants aren't always installed properly, and that some water gets past even the best shingling, it's best to have at least one drainage plane behind the shingles.
3) Puppies are cute.
k
KFC said:In the interest of peace, can we all agree:1) A perfectly shingled wall will admit some H2O, but it won't be a lot. 2) Given that flashings and sealants aren't always installed properly, and that some water gets past even the best shingling, it's best to have at least one drainage plane behind the shingles. 3) Puppies are cute.k..... and my response is:sure, as long as we add4) and I am right!!! (JUST KIDDING) (reminds me of an adage: would you rather be right, or happy)Anyway, all I really said is that I have seen with my own two eyes, 50 year old framing in pristine condition, that was behind shingles without secondary protection. I'll add to that this was on a house in Astoria, OR on the north side of town which in winter gets very little sunshine (some areas none) and gets huge amounts of fiercely driven rain.Thank you KFC for your moderation.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
LOL, I'll let you be right, 'cause I'm happy.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I was splitting hairs over semantic detail perhaps.When it comes to shingling the wall, I think almost everyone who responded would do it nearly the same way and get the same end result for all practical purposes.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
^^^^^^^^^ What piffin said ^^^^^^^^^^(although in the final analysis 'right' is still subjective - LOL - and why can't there be more than one 'right')Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
Try reading the stuff at the building science site, and listening to your peers instead of making grand broad claims based on your limited experience.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
However limited my experience is ... is irrelevant .... what IS relevant is 'my experience'.My point is the shingles protected the house sufficiently for 50 years as to prevent deterioration of any kind without the aide of a secondary protective layer.What is your point please?Are you suggesting that according to the building sciences site (and apparently yourself) that there are means and recommendations to a total water/moisture barrier? I certainly hope not.I'll add too that 'laboratory' testing is manipulated real world. There is no substitute for real world, real time testing. Labs, however unbiased and independent they are, are subject to subjective input - period.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.
Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
Cedar breather
Hi Piffin -- glad to see you are still on Breaktime (or at least were back in 2009, when this thread was active!). So, what is your view regarding cedar over felt (which is what I did a few years ago) or over cedar beather, which is what some people here (Vinalhaven) recommend? I'm trying to finish shingling the walls of an addition.
you dont perforate the sheathing/felt
?? How do you hold the furring strips over the felt?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
of course you would nail the strips but that has much less nailing holes than if you nail the shingles
I'd apply the shingles straight to the plywood for this one.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
These days, many of us use a breathing wrap under cedar shingles. It helps to allow trapped moisture to dissipate. Cedar shingle often cup on the surface because the exposed face drys out but moisture is retained behind. The wrap helps with this and can also help to make stains and paint last a bit longer.
http://www.benjaminobdyke.com/visitor/product/key/homeSlicker
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Sheathing, felt (I use Tyvek), breathing wrap & lastly shingles.
Before the breathing wrap we just nailed right to the sheathing causing the shingles to cup a bit because of the moisture trap.
The shingles will do better if they are fully primed first, or if they are to be stained, get prestained or take the time to prestain them (Hudson sprayer).
If you put horizontal strips up for the venting (which is fine), use shorter strips (5') and leave a 1" gap between the ends for air flow. Do the same with your starter strip at the bottom but be sure and tack screening over the gaps there so the house doesn't turn into yeller jacket central.
Go with the breathing wrap. It really is the best way.
Sheathing, felt (I use Tyvek), breathing wrap & lastly shingles
Jer...I've always believed you could'nt use Tyvek under cedar shingles b/c the tann acids break the Ty down.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Agreed. Tyvek hasn't been used here on the coast since shortly after it showed up. Too many cedar siding failures attributed to it.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
Agreed. Tyvek hasn't been used here on the coast since shortly after it showed up. Too many cedar siding failures attributed to it.
I know that it eats away at the Tyvek making the wrap pretty much worthless but I wasn't aware of it hurting the shingles. Whats up with that? How so?
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Please don't quote me, I'd have to go back a ways to find the documentation .... but if I remember correctly it was a 'one way' breathing issue.In any case, here on the Oregon Coast it (Tyvek) is a 'special' order item, it isn't stocked.Sig #1: If two people are exactly alike, then one of them isn't necessary.Sig #2: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
Well you're probably right Andy. It's been a few since I've done any serious shingle & shake work & it wasn't a constant task for me to begin with. I had never heard it before but if I get any such jobs again, this old dog will use felt from here on.Thanks.
I wouldn't use Tyvek under any kind of siding. Use felt. If water gets behind the siding, and the felt gets wet at a nail hole, (and you know there lots of 'em), it will swell and seal around it. Tyvek will leak, given the opportunity.Dave