Fiberglass insulation is often sold in 15″ and 23″ widths. if one uses TJI Rafters on 24 OC the space between the webs is 23 1/2 inches. This does not result in a tight fit. Do they sell insulation specifically for this application or is there a work around that works well?
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I think you can get batts at a full 24" maybe.
At a commercial drywall/steel stud supply............
you can find for sure-3-5/8's x a full 16 or 24 and also 6-maybe 8" the same.
Might have to special order longer lengths in the thicker as it's usually sold for drop ceiling applications. My supplier can get 8' and 10 ft batts-nothing in rolls that I know of. Non of it is faced.
Wider to friction fit between metal studs and full coverage above ceiling panels.
Thanks and Rolls vs batts
Thanks Calvin. It is odd that it would be special order. It seems to me there are alot of TJI Rafters in use today. Although I suppose not so many unsed in cathedral ceilings requiring the insulation be between teh rafters (but between 2 by stock ceiling joists).
As for rolls vs batts. Is there any trouble fluffing up rolled insulation. I never like the look of those tight rolls.
you don't like the look of the tight rolls?
Open a package of batts or a roll and tell me what you think of it.
Usually has a life of it's own. Batts moreso, but in just a short while, it'll acheive it's thickness.
But, since you're building-have you considered alternatives to the much maligned fibreglass?
Search here for Mooney Walls, which can be applied to ceilings too. Mike Smith is the official of this practice and is usually happy to discuss it.
Yes, I have
Sure, I have heard all teh rage about spray foam. In my opinion, DID I SAY ... IN MY OPINION, spray foam is about rage. You just can not justify the stuff. I think you can achieve alot by air sealing, air sealing, and then air sealing. I also think using some techniques when practical to break thermal bridging are good ideas.
As for Mooney Walls, I have heard it, think looked into it, and don't recall anything. Will check again.
As for teh hesteria about insulation, check out various Finehomebuilding issues of late, see the one lately about R 50 or whtever walls, double wall construction ... Gee Wzz, teh materials, the thick walls,.....
I think builders are bored with the same old, and now lay awake at night dreaming of something new to do. It does not ahve to make sense, just ahs to be different.
Did I say I HAD AN OPINION ON THIS STUFF?
Now, beleive it or not, I am always open to good ideas. And I want a quality job done, and best insulation at a COST TO BENEFIT RATIO that makes sense. I just have never seen the numbers pan out on foam, or double wall construction ....
How long?
I just have never seen the numbers pan out on foam, or double wall construction ....
What payback period are you talking about when you say this?
Payback Period
Two issues with your question.
1. I don't recall the figures exactly but I have never seen one I thought worthy of the investment.
2. I hate teh use of payback period. As one trained and practiced in the fields of accounting and financial analysis I can say payback period is the simplist and most often used cost benefit tool used by none numbers people. And one of the worst and most meaningless. The problem is that it does not take into consideration the time value of money. If the payback period is a no brainer, ie you get your money back in three years, it is OK. But once you talk about a payback of more than five or six years it really depends on what other alternatives you have to deploy those dollars invested and at what rate of return.
Now, most people say that if an investment ever PAYSBACK the original investment it is a go. This is just silly.
If I have the choice to invest $5000 EXTRA dollars into spray foam insulation and save $300 each year (just for example) or not spend the $5000 but invest it in a CD paying 6% or $300, or in Bonds making 7% or long term mutual funds making 10% or $500. Which is the better investment? And I have not even factored in the compounding affect of my interest earnings! Oh, and at the end of the day, my original $5000 IS GONE in the insulation investment and in all the others I STILL HAVE THE $5000 to spend later!
Bottom line is NPV or Net Present Value analysis (not show above) is far better than a simple payback period.
In my case in the Pacific Northwest in a 2200 sq ft house, my heating expense for a season is $410, and my house is what I would say poorly insulated. How much would I be willing to pay to cut that number in half? Or more simply put, how much would I be willing to pay to save $200, (which I am not convinced foam would save me anyway). Personally, I would not pay $2000.
And sure energy cost are rising, and that is a factor to be addressed in the analysis.
Two thoughts on that.
1. Those increased costs are in the farther out (how far? don't know) and increased cost in out lier years have less impact on NPV than immediate cost savings.
2. Secondly, unless the Democrat Maxists suceed with distroying the nation and including the stupidity of economic killing energy taxes, North America is in the midst of a NAtural Gas boom never seen before! Natural Gas prices should be expected to stay "low" for some time to come. Cheap! $400 a year cheap.
Ok, you live in the Northeat and heat with electrity. THE ANALYSIS START a fresh. Foam?
Doright, respectfully-
proofread your post, I'm getting lost in mid sentence.
thanks.
Sorry, Calvin
Technical stuff is hard to summarize. Hard to boil a three hundred page textbook down to three hundred words.
It's either that...
unless the Democrat Maxists suceed with distroying the nation and including the stupidity of economic killing energy taxes
... or the Republican Fascists push for unrestrained extracting and burning of carbon fuels, strip mining the country and hydro-fracking the ground water supply in the process, while irreversibly damaging the planet for future generations.
Lemme guess, you're one of those who figures the planet will be OK for the rest of your lifetime, and you could give a rat what happens after that...?
No, I just have a brain
I do think this MAN CAUSED Global Warming is Bull St. It is so obvious that it is a perfect tool of Marxists Elites to dupe stupid gulable people. Look at the last copenhagen meeting, every nation in the world was there to get a piece of teh redistribution of American Wealth, even Saudi Arab was there asking for money to assit it when we stop buying their oil. Pay Attention!
As for the planet blah blah blah being ok for the rest of my life, well .. that depends what blah blah blah BS means.
This I know. Oil will be priced in the neighborhood of $100 or more with ocassional flutuations below that mark (maybe). It will trend up from there. There will be alternatives and more and more of them as teh price of oil rises. Left to its own devises will will chose alternatives which are cheaper than the price of oil at that point in time. Very simple.
What I also know is that we will have options A thru z. and that markets will explore all of them. What we also have is stupid Dumbocrats insisting that we develop ONLY option P and or D, ie wind and biofuel nonsense. These are the chosen winners, never mind that that means we are forced to accept options which COST you and me and the economy twice as much as oil. This is stupid and not the action of a rational mind, or of a serious country wish to have a competetive economy and any kind of a standard of living for you and I.
Sorry you were not capble of understanding my last post and I suspect incapable of understnding the economic reality o f this post for the ever same reason.
And of course now I understand why you wish to spend $10,000 to insulate your house to save $100.
I know you're lecturing me
to try to seem highly intelligent, but it's not working. You may want to see about increasing your meds, it will help with the foaming at the mouth.
People of low intelligence offer no rebutals. Hmm know anyone like that here? How typical, and very scary.
I give you facts, analysis, and concepts, you offer "I question your intelligence" I see I can rest my case.
I suppose you believe electric cars have no emissions. WOW, scary. Probably public school noneducated.
Try they run on coal. Think about if you are able.
And did I mention Democrat corruption. Why do you think Nancy Pelois and her ilk are heavily invested in wind projects? Who don't hink it has anything to do with her subsidizing the industry which obviously otherwise makes no sense? And why subsidiaze Ethanol? If it made any sense it would stand on its own. But it does not. It may well at oil at $200 a barrel, but not know. But again, Democrat corruption, buying corn state votes, who gives a flip about how much it costs you and I, they get elected. And never mind that by politicans deciding ethanol is a winner, the environment is actually damages in dozens of ways worse than oil. Carbon emisions if you believe in the nonsense is actually higher with ethanol. It uses tons of water, depletes soils, requires commercial fertilizer (IE OIL), it uses more energy than it produces, and on and on and on.
But it is a winner for corrupt democrats.
Seriosuly
SEriously, you don't have a rebutal?
Can you really argue that
electric cars don't run on coal?
wind energy is very expensive?
wind energy damages the countryside, requires thousands of miles of transmission lines, and kills millions of birds (many endangered spieces)?
You don't think the market price of oil will drive inovation?
You don't think politicians can't possibly select a course of action better than thousands of business working with market minded consumers?
You ahve no rebuttal. Not surprised most people don't really think about any of this stuff, regurgate what they have been told. Not very smart, but easy.
If you're capable of
having a discussion that's not laced with insults, I'll partake. So far it's not looking promising.
I long ago put DoRight on ignore, since he's incapable of having a rational discussion.
Look in a mirror
IF you review the thread it is YOU you call insults, questioning intelligence.
The reall issue here is ignorance. This is not an insult it is a discreption of knowledge or lack there of, Agreed. I am ignorant of many building issues. You are ignorant as to financial analysis, economics, geopolitics, energy, markets, etc. No crime there. The difference is I know where I am ignorant, have no pride interfering with my ablity to question and to learn. Your pride obviously hampers you in all these area. Sad for you.
As for things not looking promising, I agree. You are clearly incapable of rebutting anything I have offered to you. This is really very typical, most people buy pablum, reguratate it, and think that makes them smart and informed. It does neither. Then what is worse is that when comfronted with their ignorance, they call the other guy names. Look familar?
As an uninterested third party............
to come here and type pretty well and ask questions is a good thing.
To start in on politics in a Glen Beck ranting mumbling frothing at the mouth way, uttering non descript mispelled rants in the manner of a lemming regurgitating the "company line"......................is not so good.
Matter of fact, it makes you appear the numb head.
This from one damn dumb carpenter.
Thanks Calvin, but I think you meant to post this message to the D Miller guy who started in on the Global Warming nonsense.
Nonsense deserves a knowledgeable response, guilty as charged. It is sad that people just brainless accept this stupidity,conventional wisdom and all. There is no Glen Beck going on here, who listens to him. Clearly, my posts are laden with pretty basic facts and concepts. The fact that people revert to pablum is just too sad.
As for typos, see I admit I go fast and when reponding to some they are just not worth my time.
I apologies to you.
As for being a dumb carpenter. If by that you mean uninformed, as few people are truely dumb, then don't be. Apply a little energy to these issues. Really, our national survival depends on people understanding this stuff.
If by that you mean uninformed
No, I don't mean that.
And I am just being facetious with the dumb carpenter part.
It helps me appear to not know it all. Those that think they do, are only fooling themselves.
Of course, we've probably already hit "peak oil", or will within the next ten years. Oil will be at least $200 a barrel by 2020, $500 a barrel by 2030. I suppose if DoRight is as old as I am he figures he won't be driving by 2030, so why would he worry? He just wants to keep pump prices low for the next 15 years.
Well, Dan. I don't deny Oil prices will rise and that someday it will be too expensive to use, perhaps too expense for even lubrications or plastics. Who knows. If you read my posts, the point is that as this happens cheaper alternatives will then make sense. Case in point, I am not sure hybrids as cost effective yet, but they are close. Electric cars are still way to rediculous in price, and yet slavish Warmers think it is better to drive a "COAL BURNING" GM Volt. Bizzare. MArkets will bring technologies to bear when they makes sense. To artifically pick one and waste billions of economic wealtha nd our standard of living on one pick is very counter productive. Pick wind over nuclear? Pay 30 cents per KW wind vs 8 or 10 cents ofr nuclear? Really? Who pays the difference? YOU DO. ANd sevral times over, as industries which must pay high prices for energy can not compete with China's industires which pay 5 cents for coal. What happens then? Business go out of busines or move over seas, and cost you your job. You say require industry to stay here? Then they just go out of business as we import the goods from China.
I expect to be driving in 2030. What I will drive and what will power it is unknown. But I do not loss sleep over it. The world was suppposed to over populated and we would all be canabiles by now. The Ice Age was supposed to have covered us over by now. And on and on. Maybe Global Warming is real, but even "fixes proposed" only reduce warming by less than 1/10 of a degree, which is to say we still warm by 3 degrees. And we have not even factored in the fact that China and India are greater CO2 emitters than we are today and soon to double that. The U.S. could bring its emissions to zero and have ZERO affect on warming, because of India and China. Show me the fix for that. Many say we need to spend 20 trillions to cut the warming, not elimiate it just cut it. Think what we could actually do with 20 trillion dollars, provide clean water to everyone on the planet, eliminate Malaria with sparys and netting, stop flood in Banledesh (spelling) and on and on and on.
mooney
Checked out monney. Now I am not sure I have seen it before, but I had a idea similar to it. I was thinking about crosshatching all outside walls without door or window openings and laying 1 1/2 inch foam in between, FG between studs. I realize limiting this to walls without openings is ... well limiting, but just not sure I want the hassle of furing out windows blah blah blah. You might be surprised as to the number of walls without opens though. Gauge walls, closets, 1/2 bath, certain bedroom walls .... Maybe 25%.
Will think about Mooney overall though. Thanks.