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Fiber Cement Over Rigid Foam

| Posted in Construction Techniques on September 20, 2007 12:27pm

I started a Weatherboard warranty job yesterday,  as well as 4 sliding glass doors.  The doors went smooth yesterday and I started to reinstall one of the garage walls today which was sheathed with 7/16 OSB. 

I looked on the house walls that I had the guys stripping and there is no wood sheathing just 3/4″ rigid foam nailed directly to the studs.  Builders in this area in the early to mid 90’s did this alot.  Some used one sheet on the corners,  most didn’t. 

I thought about this most of the day and haven’t really came up with a good foolproof solution yet.  My thought was to adjust the guns so that the nails are left out by about 1/4″ and finish them off by hand.  Slow but I think it’s the best approach. 

Another thought was to nail 1/4″x2″ plywood rips to the studs then nail the FC directly to the strips.  This would help the siding from being sucked in too tight.  Also creating a rain screen type wall section. 

Me being fairly new to Fiber Cement only done 6 jobs before this one I haven’t run into this yet.  I also haven’t heard anyone else dealing with it yet,  so I thought I would ask here. 

Matt

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Replies

  1. splintergroupie | Sep 20, 2007 02:41am | #1

    Nailing the strips on will create issues with your openings, no?

    I screwed all my Hardieplank over a layer of 3/4" foam, though that was over sheathing. I drilled 1/8" starter holes in a stack of planks with a x-long drill bit. The screwing went quickly with a star drive and they hang absolutely straight - no worries about overdriving in the foam.

    1. User avater
      NickNukeEm | Sep 20, 2007 02:50am | #2

      What type/material of screws, and I assume you didn't countersink?  The heads sitting proud didn't cause  any issues? 

       "I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul."  Invictus, by Henley.

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Sep 20, 2007 03:05am | #3

        I was up on a dormer yesterday hanging Hardie, and ran outta nails on the last hunk of the day, so just keep it up till morning, I had a trim head SS torx screw and my impact drive handy in the boom lift. I just tacked the siding there and called it a day.

        Later I came back to nail it off, and instead of reversing the screw out, I (by mistake) had th edriver in Forward, the screw just went in like butter and c-sunk sweetly..if I'd known it worked that well, for small areas, I'd leave the air hose at home and just screw it..works well.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

      2. splintergroupie | Sep 20, 2007 03:25am | #4

        I used Grip-Rite fasteners called PrimeGuard Plus-Coated, which came from either Lowe's or HD...can't recall. They are gold, and one's i've found languishing outdoors are still bright bec of the coating on them. They aren't bugle-headed like DW, but have a much thicker shank. The larger packages each come with a star-drive bit in them...how cool is that?! They are a dream to use, even compared to Robertson heads. The starter holes are necessary, IMO. Trying to start screws in the planks without them is a time-loser.The screws sink in pretty well, too, though i actually thought screwheads would help me achieve a bit of gap to help with moisture control. It turns out that expansion/contraction hasn't been an issue at all, even though you can see from the snapshot i just took that the laps are pretty closed. (A friend of mine who put up some wet Hardi ended up with substantial gaps between his vertical joints.) The plank was put up in fall of 2004.

        1. User avater
          NickNukeEm | Sep 20, 2007 05:26am | #6

          Thanks.  I have to remove some cedar claps from a seaside house on a side that is beaten by the sun unmercilessly, and had planned to use Hardi, and am toying with the idea of using screws.  Even hitting studs with ss ringshanks, I think the climate will take its toll, and feel screws would be a better option.

          Thanks again.

           "I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul."  Invictus, by Henley.

    2. Stilletto | Sep 20, 2007 01:08pm | #8

      No it wouldn't create issues with the openings.  I thought that part through a little.  I have to take the FC trim off the windows and the doors anyway.  New trim was shipped in the new materials.

      I am not sure if screws will work and the new still be covered under warranty. 

      From what I understand the nails or screws can't break the surface.  If the screws are left out and not counter sunk,  won't they cause waves? 

      Ring shank nails also voids their warranty,  they say that it blows the back of the siding out.  So they only warranty smooth shank nails. 

      Matt

      1. splintergroupie | Sep 20, 2007 05:17pm | #9

        <<I am not sure if screws will work and the new still be covered under warranty.>> General installation instructions are located on the James Hardie site here, including installation over foam, fastener requirements, etc.:http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/products_siding_hardieplankLapSiding.py?openTab=jsnavLink4More detailed instructions are located here:http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/pdf/hardiplankinstall.pdfThe screws i mentioned don't 'break' the surface. I drilled an 1/8" pilot hole; other people have said they did not need a starter hole, but i found that the time i took to gang-drill the holes was insignificant compared to the time saved by pre-drilling. <<If the screws are left out and not counter sunk, won't they cause waves?>> As you can see from the pic i posted...."no". With the pre-drilled pilot hole, the heads pulled down enough to cause no waves and not even any gapping at all between courses.

        Edited 9/20/2007 10:17 am by splintergroupie

        1. Stilletto | Sep 20, 2007 11:51pm | #10

          Thanks for the links. 

          Were the screws you used full heads or trim heads?  I know you mentioned the torx tip. 

          I will be getting up the walls on Monday.  Today was between sliding glass doors.  No pieces longer than 8 ft.  I might need to give screws a shot if nails start fighting me. 

          Matt

          1. splintergroupie | Sep 21, 2007 12:29am | #11

            They're full-head screws. Here's a pdf with all the poop on the "PrimeGuard" brand:http://www.grip-rite.com/files/PrimeGuard-Brochure-100903.pdfThe very bottom of the second page of that, in the middle column, shows the star-drive screw head. That's the one i used.

      2. Stilletto | Oct 05, 2007 01:12pm | #12

        Finished the siding two days ago and it went great,  I used the 1/4" plywood strips. 

        I nailed the strips on then would nail an entire course on across the house.  I would then eyeball down the wall.  If a stud was creating a wave in I would put a few more nails into the studs on each side of the wave and drive the strips into the foam.  Floating out the wave. 

        Same with outies but it would be just the stud with the bad crown,  driving the strips into the foam really made this easy. 

        I tried predrilling and screwing but it just kept snapping the pieces.  Even with a 1/4" hole I had alot of the pieces crack.   Certainteeds weatherboard fiber cement is much more brittle than Hardi's siding. 

        Matt

        1. splintergroupie | Oct 08, 2007 08:45am | #13

          Interesting about the cracking. How close to the edge did you drill the holes? I spaced mine 1" from the edge.

          1. Stilletto | Oct 08, 2007 11:45am | #14

            I am not sure how you spaced the screw 1" away from the edge,  hit the stud and countersink the screw head far enough.  I tried it and it wasn't happening.  Even with a 1/4" pilot hole.  Each piece I tried it on cracked. 

            I ended up predrilling all the ends with an 1/8" hammer drill bit and hand nailed them. 

            I don't remember what you said you used in your pictures,  Hardi or Certainteed.  The Certainteed is what I was using and it's easily more brittle than the Hardi. 

             

             

            Matt

          2. splintergroupie | Oct 08, 2007 10:06pm | #15

            I did use Hardie, and the screws countersunk themselves, too. The overlap was 1/1/4", so the holes were just back of the reveal line. I'm also sure the bit was 1/8" bec i used one that is extra-long for drilling a stack of the pieces and i was careful not to lean on it too hard.Good to know about the difference in brittleness between Hardie and Certainteed.

  2. homedesign | Sep 20, 2007 04:41am | #5

    Stilletto,

    Here is a recent and long discussion about Hardie and foam

    93408.19

    1. Stilletto | Sep 20, 2007 06:49am | #7

      I can't increase the lap because of inside corners.  THe courses won't match up. 

      The rep already sent out the new material so I have to make the 7-1/4" work. 

      I have a best practices maual and I'll read up on that and what they say about screwing it up. 

      The wavyness is the reason this is a warranty job.  Somehow the local rep got a Certainteed rep to bite on incorrect milling in the thickness and they are footing the bill.  It WASN'T incorrect milling thats for sure. 

       

      Matt

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