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Field Stone / River Stone Patio

weekend_warrior | Posted in General Discussion on May 17, 2007 07:50am

I have house in an area that is over whelmed by rocks.  A neighbor said that the rock is leftover from the advance of the glaciers that created the great lakes.  The rock is in many different sizes, colors, and is everywhere!

I have used alot of this material for landscaping purposes around the house.  My latest idea is to use some of this material to make a patio and a large outdoor barbeque that I can also use as an outdoor fireplace on cooler summer and fall evenings.

While I have found alot of how to stuff on flagstone patios, paver patios, etc…  I have not been able to find anything that may help me in this project.

To give you some idea, the natural soil around our house is extremely sandy.  The rocks are everywhere.  I would bet that we have hauled in nearly three hundred yards of top soil just so that we can have some grass.  The house itself has a small back yard that becomes a hill.  The area does not receive much sun and so it has been quite difficult to grow grass there, so I decided on a patio.

I know that pavers, flag stone, etc… are probably easier methods to achieve my goal, but to have this material just laying around (and so much of it!) it just seems to be the way to go.

I am certain that the material is also suited for my barbeque idea as well, but I have never tackled a project like that and could use some ideas here too.

If anyone out there has some helpful hints of doing both of these projects or can point me to a resource that will give me some information, I would be most grateful.

Thanks in advance!

The Weekend Warrior

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Replies

  1. peteshlagor | May 17, 2007 10:25pm | #1

    Deepends.  Can you post a picture of these rocks?   Are they bowling balls or actually stackable?

     

    1. weekend_warrior | May 18, 2007 08:22pm | #2

      I have no pictures at this time, but I can post a few over the weekend.  They are stackable.  I have made a long, arching wall, 22' long x 2' w x a low end of 8", and graduating to a height of just over 3',  with no concrete or mortar to hold it.  Just stacked/interlocked with each other.  I have built a few other landscaping walls of 5" or 6" of height around the gardens.

      The way I see it is, that if I start with gardually sloped dirt away from the house, then a layer of compacted crushed stone (not sure what my depth should be here), then a layer of concrete (maybe 3" deep, depending on the size of the stones).  I would then set the stones into the concrete using stones of the right proportion, I think it will work.

      The patio I am thinking of will be 18' x 18'.  I thought of working in 9'x1' sections at a time.  Building a mold and just moving the mold as I work, since I am planning this to be a weekend project, with only about a 1/4 or a 1/2 of a weekend to work with each week.

      Anyone have any thoughts?

      Thanks in advance!

       

      1. WNYguy | May 20, 2007 04:09am | #8

        I'm in Western New York, also, and have done a fair amount of stone masonry.  I've laid up foundation walls with roundish glacial fieldstone ... the facing stones need only have at least one flatish side.  This is more in response to Mooney's reply than your original question.

        But your question is about laying some sort of patio?  I wouldn't set the stones in cement or concrete;  compacted sand or stone dust would be better.  If your natural soil is sandy and well-drained, all the better.

        There's an article in the latest issue of FHB about setting stone steps.  I think some of the advice there would be applicable in your situation.

        Allen

        1. weekend_warrior | May 21, 2007 07:31pm | #11

          Hi Allen,

          I'm in East Aurora.  I thought about sand, but part of my problem in the area that I am in is ants.  I think I built the damn house on the biggest ant hill in the world.  It's a real battle to keep them away from the house and I fear if I use a sand or some other soft type material, the ants will set up shop that much closer to the house.

           

          Thanks,

           

          Tim

          1. WNYguy | May 21, 2007 08:18pm | #14

            East Aurora, eh?  You and Bearmon are practically neighbors.

            I had a house in OP village before moving to Orleans County.  And rented a house in EA village while waiting to close.  OP is very nice, and convenient to Buffalo, but I prefer EA.

            Interesting point about the sand and the ants.

            Allen

      2. WNYguy | May 20, 2007 04:16am | #9

        I just read Tim Mooney's post more carefully, and he offers some good advice.  Not sure I would grout or mortar, but it sounds like he's had more experience with doing walks/patios than I.

        Allen

  2. drystone | May 19, 2007 12:19am | #3

    What kind of rock is it - sandstone, gneiss, granite?  Where are you writing from?

    1. weekend_warrior | May 19, 2007 05:21am | #4

      Hmmm....Don't know what type of rock it is. I am in Western New York State.

      1. bearmon | May 19, 2007 04:12pm | #5

        Where in WNY?  I'm in Orchard Park. 

         

        P.S.  Go Sabres!!!Bear

        1. weekend_warrior | May 21, 2007 07:20pm | #10

          East Aurora

      2. drystone | May 19, 2007 10:14pm | #6

        If it is the same geology as the rest of New England you will have a mix of granites (rock with dark spots), basalts (dark hard rocks) and some sedimentary rocks (lighter coloured with the appearance of horizontal layers).  what you propose, putting flattish rocks into a cement bed, sounds possible but watch how frost could affect it.  There is a method of laying footpaths which might also work.  The rock is laid length into the ground, tightly packed together and tightened further by hammering shims between them.  If this is done carefully you will get a good looking result.  There are scented plants which will grow in the cracks, a further bonus for a natural looking feature.  Rebar and concrete are not always necessary to build a strong and long lasting structure.

        Navigate through http://www.stonefoundation.org or http://www.dswac.ca for some ideas, or even connections with guys who might be able to help. 

        1. weekend_warrior | May 21, 2007 07:35pm | #12

          Appreciate the suggestions and feedback.

          Have a great day.

  3. Mooney | May 20, 2007 01:03am | #7

    Round stone isnt too good for anything except under dirt .

    They have pictures of round stone though and its called cobble stone . Ive seen jobs laid up making walls but its pretty crude . About every thing about round stone works against it for laying unless they are the same size . You can work a bunch of rocks sizing them. They are useless for a floor . When they are used in a wall the amount of mortor needed pretty much deletes the idea all together unless you want the coblle stone look.. Stones are free but not mortor . Labor on good laying stone is 5 times higher than brick. You might be guessing already its cheaper to buy brick and pavers for the patio. It is for a fact if you consider labor . On the other hand they arent near as pretty as feild stone . Depends to on what look you are after . I dont think there is much choice if the decor on the house is one or the other . There are flag stone brick as well so you can match what ever decor .

     

    Flagstone is popular because its a soft rock that breaks easy. Most of it can be with in an inch of the same thickness . Depends on how you order it . You can get it with in 1/2 inch tolerances for a price. Its gives a flat floor for walking and levels nicely. On an 18 x18 youre gonna have to keep plane . You can score flag stone and break it cleanly. I use an air hammer to rat tat tat score it on the end of a chisel bit , then break it with the same hammer.

    On feild stone that are flat edged they are all kinds of different thickneses with in reason. You can attemp that by laying an up right border into the ground to act as a footing and as a wall if you will even if its only a few inches thick. The point being you will have a level border all the way around with mortor.

    Once you have your rocks to view you can estimate the major  thickness you will be using . The shallower rocks doesnt matter which Ill get to . So say the major thickness will be 8 inches , you will need 10 to 12 inches of bed to set in. If the bed goes from shallow to deep like most footings around here in this hill country then thats fine . You can use your shallow rocks in the shallow bed but you need to allow at least 2 to 3 inches greater depth of bed.

    Next step is to bring in either concrete sand or rock dust . Either is fine but I prefer rock dust . Ill explain that later .

    Bring in a minimal amount of that material with a pile in the middle or at the other end than you will be laying . A wheel bar and a sqaure point shovel and rake .

    You set each stone with a couple inches too  much matrerial under it . Twist the stone back and forth to level it and set it at heigth.Thats where the differnt thickneses are dealt with and also rough bottom rocks .

    Once the floor is laid you can set a lawn sprinkler on top of it covering all the area at once . That will set the rocks in the material and the whole mess will settle alike .  At that point after its dry you can walk on it on two by two foot peices of plywood . You can use a two by four block and hammer to touch up some stones if you have any corners shinning . All corners must be flush whether they are level or not . The floor will be levelbut you may have to touch the rocks up to have an even plane . I like to use rock dust because it acts as a light cement after it gets wet and you can walk on the rocks with out plywood after the water leaves it . It has the same effect in SB2 gravel holding the rocks in place.

    You have your choice of cement grout . You can pour it though a grout bag or run it through a two liter bottle with the bottom cut out . Some one can pour into the bottle as you run the bottle as a caulking gun covering the joints or you can simply hold your gloved finger over the opening until you are on your target . However its easiar to have one person down on knee pads with another person standing doing the material handling . You may prefer to have two bottles going . I like bottles because they are lighter and easuar to handle for this job in a kneeling postion. If you can stand and do it the grout bag will serve you better .

    Fill the joint full and humped is fine but not over flowing the joint . Youll get a knack for it . Let the water leave the mud till you can use a pointed trowel to scoop the excess off the joint with out leaving a mess . At the right time it will come loose clean depending on the moisture in the air , your mix, and the temperatures. It would be useless to name a time set to do it as its really up to those conditions . The right time will be whats right for you that day onn that job. Whether the sun is hitting it or not and what time of the day thus the postion of the sun.

    If you dont do a clean grouting job an acid wash will take care of it so dont be over concerned about the minimal,  not to say make a mess.

    Tim

     



    Edited 5/19/2007 9:02 pm by Mooney

    1. weekend_warrior | May 21, 2007 07:42pm | #13

      Wow.   I need to re-read this a couple of times.  I can't thank you enough for the valuable feedback.

      If I can get this idea formulated into a plan, this might work.  I was talking with my father in law about this and he suggested that I use six inches of stone at a minimum layed out 3 inches at a time and stamped down.  And then concrete on top of that, then the field stone, although he called it river wash stone.

      Anyway, thanks for the great feedback.  All of this input is very valuable.

      WW

    2. todd | May 21, 2007 08:42pm | #15

      Another vote for cracker dust. Put in a couple like this with a sand base and the ants just love it for some reason...no problem with crushed limestone.Todd

    3. weekend_warrior | May 22, 2007 07:52pm | #16

      What is the purpose of the concrete sand or rock dust?  Someone else mentioned dust and another crushed limestone.

      Do ants not like crushed limestone as opposed to other crushed stone material?

      Apparently my setting the stones directly into concrete is not the way to go.  Out of curiosity, why?

      Thanks to everyone in advance!

      WW

       

      1. Mooney | May 23, 2007 06:11am | #17

        You cant build with concrete to different heights and it wont hold wet . With different thicknesses of rock you would never get done if you could stack up.

        I dont know about the ants but I know they live in sand well.

        Tim  

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