I’ve got a situation in new construction where there is a near 1/4″ gap running nearly the length along the bottom of an outside bearing wall. It happened because one end of the wall sits on a corner that’s a little higher .. (don’t ask). Now it’s all set in place and NOT possible to dissassemble or re-adjust.
I need some way of ‘filling’ this gap the length of the wall … again, it is between the bottom of the wall and the subflooring. When I pound on the bottom plate it WILL drop down towards the subfloor BUT it does so by separating from the bottom of the bottom of the studs … no good.
I was thinking of using PL … that superstrong epoxy-like adhesive … and likely will if no one here has any better ideas. Any thoughts? Somehow I need to ‘spread the weight’ so that it’s not all sitting on either end of this wall. Weird problem .. never happened before.
thanks-
Terry
Replies
Kinda surprising if it's really a bearing wall with a load on it. I'd expect the weight of the structure above to solve the problem by pushing everything together. If it's just that it hasn't been loaded yet, I'd start by checking the whole structure for plumb, level, and dimensions. That should clarify the problem. If it turns out that the wall really does need to have its sole plate 1/4" higher, Just rip up a bunch of scrap 1/4" ply and cram it in there. Pry the plate up with a couple flat bars, then tap the ply in. Face nail thru the plate to make sure it stays put.
My place has a lot of termite damage in old plates that are 1 3/4" thick. So, I've been filling in with rips of ply quite a bit.
-- J.S.
I see what it is; I have a rim-joist that i built in header style/design running parrallel to the tji's along the bottom floor's wall top plates. At one end, out in the weather, it 'lifted' about a quarter inch since installation. This lifted the subflooring above it .. not enough to noticce until now when the gap under the wall that went down on it shows it.
bummer.
Newbuilder, I'm going to assume that your wall is straight and true. That means that the floor has a sag in it. That is not an uncommon thing. You have choices.
You could shim up the rim joist to properly meet the sole plate. We use steel shims when we do that. We typically shim under every joist. We fill the remaining void with insulation.
You could fill the gap between the walls with shims under every stud and insulate. This looks ugly and we rarely do that.
You could ignore it. The sheathed wall will probably remain straight for 100 years. After that, you might start to get some settlement issues.
You could pound the plate down causing a gap in the stud/plate connections.
Like I said, we usually shim the rim joist and sometimes the mudsill. It will all come up tight to the wall if you use a sledge and drive the steel in tight.
blue
I'm curious about where your termite damage is and what you are shimming? I've got carpenter ant damage in the OSB subfloor and bottom plate of an outside non-bearing wall. Ants are gone, studs are solid, rim joist is solid, and floor joists are solid. I haven't seen any settling yet, but it's just a matter of time. Can I cut/chisel out the plate and subfloor under one stud at a time and replace with ply and/or 2x?
thanks
The termite damage is mostly in the outside walls. A lot of it is sole plates, some in one or both top plates. The reason for the shims is that in 1926, the "two by" that they used for plates was actually 1 3/4" thick, but today's lumber is 1 1/2" thick. So, replacing one plate I need a 1/4" ply filler, and where it's both top plates, I cut a rip of 1/2" ply to put between the new ones.
Code requires plates to be a minimum of 4 ft. long except where the whole wall is less than that. And for doubled tops, the minimum overlap is 4 ft. Therefore, the one stud at a time approach won't pass. The conventional way to deal with this is to build a "falsework" wall parallel to the damaged one and about 3 ft. away. This carries the load while you replace the plates. Where it's just the sole plate, I came up with a method using a bunch of clamp-on brackets and a bottle jack. I'll check and see if that thread is still here.
Edit: Yes it is: 28320.1
-- J.S.
Edited 6/15/2006 6:47 pm ET by JohnSprung
Scribe the bottom plate to the floor and cut it with a good sawzall blade. If the high corner below needs to stay that way. When you cut it put a shim in the gap to hold the wall up and then pull the shim out when you are done cutting.
I only golf on days that end with a "Y".
At the very least you should shim under every stud.
This is an outside bearing wall, as mentioned, but has not yet had the next floor/wall put up on it. It's a fully finished wall: 1/2"cdx, 5/8" firecore gypsum, steal siding ... all nailed/screwed in place. This was done before the wall went up ... went up with no problem, only an 8' H. X 13'L. wall ... and now .. this gap. It's joined into the other outside walls of the floor i'm working on and everything else is fine ... but this gap. It looks like it *may* be 1/8" that the wall is actually every so slightly shorter in the middle and 1/8" that the floor sets 'down' slightly in the middle. 1/16th to 1/8th inch here and there ... but when they meet together under a wall that is absolutely stiffened by it's sheathing/coverings ... there it is.
I guess I will either poind the bottom plate down solid to the flooring and then fill in the gap that that creates between the bottom of the studs and the bottom plate .. or .. fill in under the bottom plate itself.
Thoughts?
thanks-
Better to shim between the sole plate and the subfloor. Get the places where the studs are solidly shimmed. Pry the plate upward with a flat bar to get them in. Get them nice and snug, but don't overdo it to the point where you create stress in the other direction on your sheetrock.
-- J.S.
Another vote to shim under the studs. If you don't, that wall WILL sag eventually since it's trying to support the load at the ends only.
Have you had the framing inspection? Did it pass??
No inspections yet
Many thanks to all who jumped in on this.
I am REALLY stymied by the situation. Firstly, I'm INCREDIBLY anal in all of my work and this is the absolute first time I've somehow or other created a situation anything like this. I mean I'll carry a long piece of lumber back down two flights of stairs and across the site to the chop saw and shave a blond c-hair's width off of it if I see that it's that much over. So this quarter inch is crazy.
I spent some time with it and, using string pulled taught it appears to me that the floor is perfectly straight. The WALL base is quite straight as well but at either end of the floor I THINK (not sure!) that the squash blocking under the subfloor and between the tji's AND a slight upward warping of the end of the rim has created this. It means that the weight of the wall is resting primarily on the ends .. .and I can slip a 3/16th piece of wood all the way under through and out the back near the center of the 13' wall .. which is covered with steel siding, etc. The gap is JUST under 1/4" at the worst.
I already, a few days ago, pounded the bottom plate down towards the floor a bit thereby separating it from the bottom of the studs some. When I saw that happening I stopped. I guess I'll attempt to pry it back up tighter to the studs and then wood-shim in under where the studs are as recommended here. Aaarrrggghhhh! Now I realize that when I do this it will be an even GREATER gap. But I don't see how else to handle it. There's really no other adjustment that I can make.
To make things even weirder, at either end of this wall there are 6X6 upright posts in the wall that are joined to posts from the first floor immediately below them by 5' heavy gauge holddown straps with 34 12d to 16d nails driven through them into each post ... 68 nails in all --- so if I actually now tried to LOWER the warpage of the rim below the subfloor to pull the corner of the wall down, the post ... and therefore the wall that it is integrous to ... would NOT ease down! This, because I didn't notice the gap until AFTER the holdowns were in place.
My real worry is two-fold. 1- will it still pass inspection? ... and 2- will this show-ugly when the final flooring is applied (although .. now that I think of it .. I believe this will be largely 'hidden' under a bathroom counter! :) And also ... will the wall still be safe and strong!? Damn .. I'm SO sorry this one got ahead of me!
thanks again -
now I'm depressed ..
T.
(maybe my last question should be: after making it right structurally (if possible), how the hell do I hide it!)
Edited 6/16/2006 1:55 am ET by newbuilder
Huddlemass is right, nonshrink grout will ease your pain.
I really don't think you have any structural issues. You've already said that the upright 6 x6's are attached. Those are the structural members, Im assuming.
The other floating wall will never come down if it only carries the weight of one floor. A wall sheathed with plywood is strong enough to float itself for a very long time. If I remember correctly, your wall is only 14' long.
I still wouldn't cram wood shims in there because around here, the inspectors would knock that down and ask for steel. So, in your situation, I'd either shim under each bearing stud and fill the void with expanding foam for insulatng purposes, or shave the ends and let the wall drop.
I found it amusing that you said you checked things out and both were straight, yet you had a gap! Welcome to the whacky world of framing....a world that defies physics! It happens to me all the time!
blue
I still wouldn't cram wood shims in there because around here, the inspectors would knock that down and ask for steel.
Just curious, but why wouldn't your inspectors accept wood shims or plywood strips? Given that the entire wall rests on plywood (or OSB) flooring, why would that be a problem?
Just curious, but why wouldn't your inspectors accept wood shims or plywood strips? Given that the entire wall rests on plywood (or OSB) flooring, why would that be a problem?
They probably would accept plywood strips.
Shims present a crushing problem because the weight is concentrated on a very small area. The thought is that the shims will disintegrate from the weight over time.
blue
thanks for the feedback ..
It's weird that this wall is standing there with either end of it held securely at a specific heighth by the holddowns which are joined to the posts below them ... so that over time it will be impossible for it to 'settle'. So .. I'll go ahead and shim (or ply-strip) under it. I'm going to be hold ing my breath till the inspector arrives. Thus far I've had no inspections of framing ... and I'll be up to the third floor by next week. Maybe by the time he arrives, however, I'll end up having quite a pile of new lumber along that wall there .... could happen!
thanks!
T.
There is a method called drypacking that is what we fill the gap of the plate of a steel post. Cement is slightly wetten then with puddy knife, block of wood and hammer the cement is pounded into the gap.
With such a small space, I would think about using expanding polyurathane foam (hardening kind, not the kind designed to stay flexible). This would ease any settling as well as stop air and critters coming through. Drypacking would be more structurally sound, but that sounds like it would take forever. I also wonder how you could know if you got material all the way through?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Foam won't support the weight.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
More importantly, that method doesn't straighten the floor.
Will the molding have to be crowned downward to take up the slack? Will the crown show? If the moulding is run straight, will the carpeting show a gap?
Those are the reasons why I choose to shim the floor up tight to the straight wall. Straight wall = straight floor. The two go hand in hand.
Shimming a 1/4" gap would take me five minutes or less. That includes the minute that I need to walk to the truck to get the steel shims. The insulators will normally foam that gap anyways, so they don't care if they are foaming an 1/8' gap, 1/16" gap or a 1/4" gap. For me, steel shims are the answer nearly every time.
blue
blue,
The gap is so gradual over a long enough run that I'm having a devil of a time figuring out precisely how much of it is due to the floor 'dipping' and how much to the bottom of the wall rising! There's GOT to be a 'trick' for that! But are you suggesting pounding those shims in *below* the subflooring along the top of the rim joist of the ceiling under? To force the flooring upwards towards the bottom plate?
also, odd question perhaps but ... I don't recall ever seeing 'steel shims' ... where are those normally available?
thanks -
T
Steel shims are all over the place on new foundations in Michigan, I get them off the poured concrete walls. The wall ties just snap off with a hammer. Thats where I get them. Not sure where blue gets his.I only golf on days that end with a "Y".
No Newbuilder. I'm not advocating that you raise the subflooring by creating a space above the rim.
I'm telling you to drive the shims under the rim and raise it too! It's obviously low.
Sometimes if the gap is small enough I drive the steel shims below the mudsill and raise that along with the rim joist! Usually the straps will prevent more than a small amount of movement though. If you've used foundation BOLTS, the mudsill probably won't budge at all.
We get many inches of steel shims delivered with every beam and every stanchion. It's not unusual for us to have a 100# s of steel shims, in varying size and thickness delivered with every order of steel. I used to deliver those beams and stanchions when I was a kid and I always tossed out handfuls....about one inch per each end of the beam and one inch for each stanchion. Normally, we only use about 1/2 of what is delivered and the rest get bulldozed.
Seriously, we routinely raise our decks to properly meet up with the walls all the time. Most "dips" are like you describe...long gradual gaps that are left behind because the poured wall guys aren't perfect. I can usually drive the rim and joist up with my hammer but if a deck has a heavy load on it, I'll usually grab the ten pound sledge to drive the steel shims. For a 1/4 inch gap, I'll shove three steel shims in there...the top and bottom first, and let them hang out half way. That will leave me a gaping hole to insert the third and most important shim. When I start tapping it in, it all will tighten up and a few whacks with the sledge will push them in flush. I move down about every four feet and do the same. The rim will move up tight to the wallls in about a minute. I then go back and lay a steel shim or two under every joist. it's usually only about a ten foot run, but I've had foundations that I've had to shim all the way around. I've ordered 100#s of shims on a few jobs and shimmed the deck up level many times in my career. It doesn't happen much anymore because the levels are digital.
This is not a ten minute fix...it's really like three minutes tops...I just don't want to sound like I'm superman so I say it takes five minutes, but it really doesn't unless the gap is unusually long. Shims are a way of life around here. I've never seen grout except on commercial jobs...and they usually shim with steel under bearing points too!
blue
With this type of problem, I would run a tight string along the top, corner to corner, to find out for sure what is going on. When you know that, it will be easier to choose on of the methods that the others have suggested. After using the string, my next step would be to determine if there is a change in elevation corner to corner. This should also help with your choice of shimming strategies.
I don't like the pounding so much. I used to work with a guy who shattered many a top plate with his sledge. The customer never knew that the integrity of some of his corners was compromised. I knew another guy who liked to use a lift to bang on top plates and corners to cure problems, even to push in walls to make them line up. Once the siding is on, you hardly notice anything is wrong and if you do, it is hard to put your finger on it. It gets the job done, but not how I would do it.
Definitely can't get anywhere through pounding anything, since, as stated, the holddowns are already nailed in place on both outer (end of wall) upight posts. There will be zero up or down action right from here on out on this wall without serious cracking/damage. I don't see that any one was advocating this though.
thanks
You are right, I just double checked that. At 11 PSI compressive strength, it would only hold up 6000 pounds over a 13' wall.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Drypack under the sill.
Portland and 100 sieve sand in about a 3-1 or 5-2 ratio. Add just enough water to dampen.
Pack it in the gap as firm as possible from both sides.
45 minutes from sack opening to cleanup.
1/4" over what length wall? I have read the replies and agree that using a masonry material to fill the gap under the plate would be what I'd do. I get more gaps than that in concrete slabs and I do trim work for the most part. Carpet will hide a 1/4", shoe moulding will hide a 1/4" on wood flooring also. Will the 1/4" be noticeable once the home is finished or is this strictly a structural issue?
Will the 1/4" be noticeable once the home is finished or is this strictly a structural issue?
For me it's both. I don't want to build a first floor with a dip in it. I don't want the first floor walls mirroring the dipped deck. I don't want the second floor deck mirroring the dip in the walls. I don't want the upper walls dipping like the lower walls.
I don't want the homeowners to walk into their house and see a 1/4" gap between their walls and the deck.
If they go down and scrutinize the connection between the foundation and the rim, they'll see that gap, but they are going to have to work to see it...it's not going to jump out at them when they walk into their newly framed house. The gaps always vary at the foundation connection unless the foundation crews shot the entire thing as they poured...and worked the top to perfection.....which never happens.
I don't know how I'd do it in Florida because I wouldn't be able to preframe my walls with sheathing on it. That would create a new paradigm for me.
I hope I used that paradigm word right!
blue
mortar in an icing bag...non-shrink grout maybe
I had a similar situation when building my house & I rectified it by shimming with strips of plywood.