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Replies
I would think any type silicone caulk would work. 100% silicone caulk, not something containing silicone.
Edited 4/10/2006 3:55 pm ET by MarkH
Anything wrong with using hydraulic cement, let it cure and coat the whole area with foundation sealant?
Silicone is OK but if (when) its bond fails, it will leak. Polyurethane might mork better. Stays a little sticky and flexible for a longer period.
I'd go with the hydraulic cement and foundation sealant. Made for the purpose.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I don't see how you could get hydraulic cement between the pipes. Polyurethane might be a better choice. I've had good luck with silicone myself.
>>"I don't see how you could get hydraulic cement between the pipes.
You have a point there. I think (thought) the OP is talking about sealing between the concrete hole to the pipe sleeve. I think he mentioned an 1 1/2" to 2" hole for a 1" pipe, so I read it that way.
Maybe some hyro cement for the hole and some polyurethane caulk for the joint? Still think I'd go with the foundation sealer over all of it. Likely similar stuff to caulk, but it's made for the purpose, so . . . .
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
You want something with a little give anyway, to avoid fracturing the pipe.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
For what it may be worth, I haven't seen my silicone rubber sealant beads actually break down after even a number of years of outside exposure. However, I have had almost every exposed bead lose its adhesion to whatever substrate I've tried to stick it on. (Concrete, glass, wood, various plastics) sometimes in only months ! This even after some pretty scrupulous cleaning beforehand in some cases.
For the past few years I've started using a polyurethane sealant made by Lepages called Bulldog Grip. It costs more but seems to be both tougher and better adhered than Silicone when I've tried to pull it out of some sawcuts in a concrete pad I poured 3 years ago.
Surprisingly my best adhered beads were only about 1/4" deep. It may seem strange but I would be inclined to fill the bulk of the gap with expanding polyurethane foam and capping it with a shallow bead of the Lepages stuff (or some other's polurethane caulking/sealant) once the foam had cured.
It seems to me that you would want something flexible rather than rigid so I would stay away from anything like hydraulic cement, or rigid curing epoxy.
Hope this helps.
Apologies for this double post, but after thinking about your situation a bit more a few thoughts came up.
1) Both the poly foam and the poly sealant I use are both 1-part products that are moisture cured, that is, a bit of dampness is actually good for curing the stuff, probably a good thing for underground work!
2) Polyfoam always seems to get on some part of me whenever I don't use those flimsy vinyl gloves that comes under the cap of the can and sticks to me like nobody's business. Even scrubbing with strong solvents won't take the stuff off after it has cured. I've just remembered a pair of work pants I still wear that got some foam on them years ago that have been through the laundry dozens of times and still bear witness to how tenacious the bond is. The stuff won't come off.
3) I had a leak in my concrete block wall 4 years ago where my plastic (polyethylene) well pipe came through into my basement pump room. It had been "sealed" with what seemed to be cement or mortar (hydraulic cement perhaps?) and was leaking around the pipe. I broke out the mortar and filled that sucker with a generous shot of high expanding polyurethane foam, and jammed a piece of plywood over the surface to force the stuff to expand into the block. A week later the wall began leaking about 10' from my repair and I've had to dig up the outside of the wall since to do a lasting fix to a failed weeping system. For 2 wet seasons however, that poly foam never so much as oozed a drop through it!
Awe, comeon, you're not being fair to the hydro cement. A good cement repair can last centuries -- much longer than the pipe.
I'm not saying poly foam won't do the same job, but it hasn't been around long enough to prove it.
In your case, a couple of years isn't a test. How long had the cement been around that pipe without leaking? ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Phil, you make an excellent point, ie: why go with new and improved when old & reliable is proven.
If I was patching an empty hole in block or concrete I would not hesitate to use Hydro Cement. And a few short years is hardly a test of anything I would want to call Fine Homebuilding either.
Firstly, poly-ANYthing plastic has not been around anywhere near as long as concrete, I doubt you or I could point to a long history of successfully sealing a poly pipe with Hydraulic cement since the poly has only been around a relatively short time, not the hundreds of years I like to see a product tested for either.
Poly's strength comes from the fact that it gives, concrete's strength from the fact that it doesn't. Imagine a concrete pipe filled with water & frozen, now the poly filled the same way & also frozen, which one is still usable when thawed out? Now imagine a floor made out of poly compared to one made out of concrete, which one would you like to install an accurate machine tool upon? Each material has different strengths and weaknesses, the problem comes from us trying to put them together.
How long will the marriage between the two materials in the wall last? I can't predict it . However if it failed once for me it is likely to fail again, just a matter of when.
The poly moves, the cement doesn't. It seems to me that to keep a sealed joint between the two you must supply something flexible between them.
Hundreds of years ago my ancestors did not bring water into their houses with little pipes in the basement. We are on somewhat unproven ground here, no?
As has been previously posted, poly is the devil to get anything to stick to. Perhaps the best solution would be a compressible, long lasting material, trapped between the dissimilar materials and compressed into place so that it can expand and contract and still maintain contact with all surfaces. Depending on the pressure of the water from the hill above trying to get in, you might need to use pretty high compressive forces to maintain that contact.
Unfortunately I can't think of anything with an established track record of doing such a job well over an extended period of time. Expanding Polyurethane foam was my best guess at something cheap & available & it seems to be better than Silicone or anything rigid in my humble opinion. (At least it didn't fail immediately!)
Thank you for keeping me thinking.
Fibered roof patch will hold up for decades in the below ground environment. Smear it inside the hole and all over the pipe BEFORE you pull the last 8" of pipe thru the holes.
But, since almost nothing sticks to poly but melted poly, on own house transistioned to steel fitting and galv pipe thru the walls, grouted (grout is simply cement and water paste) in place. Has not leaked for 35 years.
You could do a trial run with a hot glue gun with poly sticks with warmed empty pipe, bet that would work also. Hot glue gun and preheated case is about the only thing that will successfully seal up a cracked poly lead acid battery case.
FWIW, recall that before the 1974 first oil crunch, could buy a 100 ft roll of USP 1-1/4" poly pipe for under $4!, keg of tar was only 73 cents, 7 cents/gal for gas on the farm.
If there's water pressure, nothing will hold. Water will get through the concrete somewhere, even if not through those holes.
backer rod to limit the dept of the seal (1/2" or so) and Polyurethane calk would be a better choice than sillycone...
3M marine sealent would be a better choice still.. get it at HD...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 4/10/2006 9:09 pm by IMERC
What's your opinion on butyl gutter and foundation caulk?
won't take the sustained wet and may not stick well to the PVC...
go get the 3M... it's rated for under water... sticks to everything and loves wet....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Someone mentioned "foundation seal". I used to have to use that stuff, and it would make spiderweb like strings that blew in the wind and always seemed to end up in my hair, plus the smell makes me sick.
3M marine sealant is super stuff.
3M marine sealant is super stuff.
yup...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'd like to give this 3M stuff a try. The local HD near me doesn't carry the stuff & the associate I spoke with has never heard of it. Could you supply a descriptive number or a material spec on the stuff?
I did an i'NET search on 3M MARINE SEALANT and came up with 5 or 6 3M marine adhesive/sealants but they all turned out to be 1-Part moisture-cured polurethane sealnts.
Thanks
Here is a good source. They also have lots of other things for woodworking/construction.Expoxy, SS fasteners.http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search_category.do?categoryName=Epoxy%20and%20Adhesives&categoryId=203&page=GRID&history=
SS fasteners, NOW your speaking a language that grabs my interest BIG TIME!
Just cruised the Jamestown Website, Turns out that they will ship to Canada, (much to my surprise). This is an unexpected bonus to someone tired of Window Shopping without being able to actually lay hands on products behind the glass wall.
Thanks for the heads up.
I couldn't find the partial tube I had left over..
I must be gettin' neater in my old age and tossed it...
I will cruise by the store a bit latter and have a look see as to which one it was....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
3M 5200 and this HD does carry it....
stopped off and visited another hot tub I did... IIRC at least 4 years... maybe as long as 5 years ago... that had a mix of 3M and Goop marine sealent...
the goop and 3M were sticking to everything I got it on... PVC, CC, redwood, cedar and metal...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks for the info, now I'm starting to like this stuff even more!
Rhetorical question here but wouldn't it be ideal if we could pay off the mortgage on a house before the thing falls down, or needs a second mortgage to pay for the repairs when short lifetime materials give it up?
Anyone mention Bentonite yet? I've used it in sheet form for waterproofing, not sure if it can be fabbed somehow to waterproof a pipe penetration.
I sealed a supply penetration with the exoxy tube that you cut off what you need and knead it and pack it around the pipe. It is rated for pool repair under water. Never saw a drop of water in the three years I lived there.
I reserected a very large hot tub... 8-10 bodies...
ALL the sillycone had failed ...
ALL the foam exposed to water had seperated and it did absolutely nothing for the leaks but let the water pass thru and be A ROYAL PITA to clean off of the fittings so I could repair them...
the 3M was the ticket...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would say the 5200 is the best.
Here is the pdf
http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs66SY6HCOrrrrQ-
5200...
that's the stuff....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It will stick to concrete, but it doesn't mention that specifically. See if you can contact the manufacturer. There should be contact listed on the website somewhere.
Sure -- it's for boats, right? Haven't you ever seen a concrete boat?
>>Haven't you ever seen a concrete boat?
Here's the pride of our fleet
http://www.stuofdoom.com/concrete.html
(my dad used to take us all to Cape May when I was a kid -- never forget that concrete ship. It's still there).
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
There used to be a concrete (more properly "ferro-cement") sailboat that docked at Lake City, MN on Lake Pepin (on the Mississippi River between MN and WS). But that was 25 years ago, and I don't get up that way much anymore.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
gunnite is the ticket