Finding Attorneys for Construction Law
Well guys, almost 4 years ago I planned on giving my own business a try again in 5. That goal would leave me with just a little over a year to startup. Besides using these past years to learn more about the business end of running a business (and also regaining my sanity), I was hoping to use them in building a nice amount of capital to start with. <!—-> <!—-><!—->
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Unfortunately, the way work has been around here, I haven’t really been able to build much capital at all working for someone ells. In fact, if my usual employers get any slower (one large commercial company I’ve worked for that had been in business since the 1800s just went out of business), I’m going to have to start working for myself in the next few months just so I can keep eating.<!—-><!—->
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I just got back shopping for an attorney that specializes in construction law. There are only three law offices in my small little town, one small office with a guy that only specializes in “people who walk through the front door,†another small office that won’t work with me because they only work with the “big money,†and one firm rather big in comparison, with a guy who says he does construction law but is also quite young.<!—-><!—->
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I asked the young attorney how much it would cost to have him look at maybe 10 different contracts between 2 to 5 pages long and make sure everything looks okay. He said it would probably only cost around $25 or so and would take less time than the free first 30 minute consultation they offer. I guess he must be one of those speed readers. Well, the free first 30 minute consultation he mentioned made me feel like his firm was honest, but I do wonder about the short amount of time he’d be spending, in addition to how much experience he could really have. He looked like he was about 26 years old. How much construction law could he have really done in this small little town?<!—-> <!—->
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On the one hand, it would be nice to have someone local if something comes up, but on the other hand, most of my work may very well be coming from the big cities 40 miles east and west of me. I also don’t think I can ask any contractors around here for recommendations because they would all be my competitors. Does anyone have any suggestions on finding a good attorney who specializes in construction law? <!—-><!—->
–T
Replies
Save your money and go to JLC's library, there is a legal contract book.
>>Save your money and go to JLC's library, there is a legal contract book.Litigators love form books.What works in one state may be deadly in another.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
I know, but very few contracts are litigated. It makes no difference if it is a form as you and I both know that most lawyers us forms also. As far as individual states, that is covered also.
My contracts are a 'form" my attorney that he wrote & sells a lisence for. It has been modified to suit me. The majority of contracts sont go to litigation for 2 reasons. 1) it is so poorly written and the back up documentation is poor so winning is unlikely, 2) it is well written & the backup documentation is well done making it unlikely the debtor will win & its cheaper for them to pay or work out a deal.
HOw did I pick mine? He is outstanding at beating contracors out of their contracts and their money. that's the attorney you want "this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
>>I know, but very few contracts are litigated. It makes no difference if it is a form as you and I both know that most lawyers us forms also. Yes, but a good attorney uses a form he/she has developed, not from a form book.I used to do some document creation macros in WP (when that was the word processor of choice) and even "using a form" involved picking from various options depending on the deal.And the few contracts that are litigated are, generally contracts that were poorly constructed.A good contract would fill every hole/anticipate and settle every question that could come up in the deal so there are not questions left to litigate.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
>>10 different contracts between 2 to 5 pages long and make sure everything looks okay. He said it would probably only cost around $25 or so and would take less time than the free first 30 minute consultation they offer.
Based on an average, lets say of 35 pages total.
He could maybe read it in 1/2 hour.
Study 'em and think about 'em?
I would pause....
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
He can probabl read through them all in 30 minutes and tell you if any of them are any good, but then you will have to pay him to edit the forms. If those 3 are are your choices, go with the young guy.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
>>He can probabl read through them all in 30 minutes and tell you if any of them are any good, Read 'm sure. Think and analyze them sufficiently to tell if they're any goodWell, if they suck, maybe - it usually doesn't take long to spot crepe, but if they're actually pretty good, I can't see it in that time frame.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
My point was, the lawyer can read through all the contracts and form an opinion, but asking him to select the best one or make changes or discuss them in any depth will require several more hours."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
>>My point was, the lawyer can read through all the contracts and form an opinion, but asking him to select the best one or make changes or discuss them in any depth will require several more hours.Well, my experience is that even trying to evaluate (not just read) a page to a page and a half a minute would be pretty tough, based on my expeience.Again, far easier to do if it's a piece of junk - if it's good, it'll take more time
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
You do realize that anyone can sue anyone else at anytime for anything.. it doesn't matter if there is a contract or not..
The cost of defending most lawsuits is so high that often it's settled out of court rather than going to court.. If you go to court it depends on a lot of factors, the least of which is the lawyers ability to read law..
The best way to win a lawsuit is to have an attorney who knows the local judges really well and can pull strings..
To get that I suggest you speak to the local city/ county attorney and ask who he recommends.. (don't be surprised if he recommends himself)
The law really has very little to do with the law and a lot to do with connections..
You can probably get better mileage by finding and joining a homebuilder's or remodeler's association in your area and accessing whatever contracts they have. That said, I commissioned a contract and a few attachments and spent about $2000. I spend a few bucks periodically tuning it up, mostly in response to client negotiations.
After reading your post, and the responses, the question I still have is why would you have 10 *different* contracts? If these are yours, there should be only one standard contract, with variable scope and price sections to be customized for each job.
You wanna know if the kid knows his stuff? Ask him some specifics related to problems you've encountered in the past and how these contracts would help solve the problem. Ask him if he can read a print. See if he understands the specs. Does he have at least a passing familiarity with the building code? Ask him if there are laws in your state that relate to construction contracts and ask for copies of them (or at least cites so you can get them yourself in the Internet). Pretty much any lawyer can read and understand the laws that apply to construction. The trick is to find one that understands how the construction applies to the law. Get references. Heck, you probably give YOUR clients references -- he should too.
As for form contracts, they can be OK, but usually need to be tweaked for your own purposes and they need to comply with your own state and local laws, as currently in force. It's the tweaks and the local compliance issues where you need someone with knowledge of the laws to help you and to point out the "gotchyas".
IME, 90% of residential construction cases are caused by extras. Even though contracts almost universally say "extras must be in writing", I can't count the number of cases I've worked on where the whole problem was caused by extras with no change orders, or change orders with no price info. So don't think you're covered by a great contract unless you keep the contract current throughout the job by staying on top of change orders.
Another pitfall is property owners who insist on cutting corners and then blaming the contractor when everything falls apart 6 months later. Always document your recommendations and have the client sign off on any variations from them. Again, your contracts may be great, but it's the follow-up that is crucial in this type of situation.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
>>Ask him if he can read a print. See if he understands the specs. Does he have at least a passing familiarity with the building code? Ask him if there are laws in your state that relate to construction contracts and ask for copies of them .... Pretty much any lawyer can read and understand the laws that apply to construction. The trick is to find one that understands how the construction applies to the law.I completely agree with you that a good attorney will have some good concrete knowledge of construction -- "how construction applies to the law" - great line!I know some very good lawyers who wouldn't agree, but when I practiced I know mt clients appreciated that I knew the down and dirty of their areas.Read a print? Id on't think that is necessarily needed for good construction contract work, but a lawyer that can read one is likely to bring a whole passel of hard construction knowledge so it's a definite plus.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
"Read a print? Id on't think that is necessarily needed for good construction contract work, but a lawyer that can read one is likely to bring a whole passel of hard construction knowledge so it's a definite plus."
Exactly. Rarely needed for he job, just an indication that the guy's earned his stripes.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
>>>IME, 90% of residential construction cases are caused by extras. Even though contracts almost universally say "extras must be in writing", I can't count the number of cases I've worked on where the whole problem was caused by extras with no change orders, or change orders with no price info. So don't think you're covered by a great contract unless you keep the contract current throughout the job by staying on top of change orders.<<<EXCELLENT EXCELLENT EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!
Too many of us are soooooooo guilty of that!! Me included...ugh. I've even gone as far as not getting a contract signed on real small jobs and never had a problem but never again b/c I do know I regret it anytime I've done that in spite of it working out. It just makes me feel reallyyyy uneasy the entire time I'm working....really really stoopid! Never again!!If I do land this gig I'll be sure to spell out all kinds of things right from the get go explaining that "signed" change orders protect both parties b/c by the time the job is 1/4 done people forget what was said all too often whether on purpose or not....if ya know what I mean. Photographing the stages as I go along is also another must and not just to show new clients, but rather to document what went into the work that people may not see down the line.View Image
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I plan on using The JLC book long form contract for a job that'll be for well over 500K I'm submitting a proposal for in the next week or so. I plan on having an attorney go over it after I do... to edit it to fit me. I figure this should save quite a bit of money being I'll already have a 'tract for the attorney to read through and edit.
Anyone else ever do that?
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Provided you're in an area that doesn't have a lot of off-th-wall legal requirements, that should work fine. I've done this for clients on several occassions. It does save money if the attorney doesn't already have his own contract form that he's comfortable with. If so, using the attorney's own form should be even chea . . . er, "more affordable." ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
very good point Mike. The JLC 'tract does appear pretty good for everyone concerned after reading through it but I'm no attorney so....so I will ask an attorney which is the most cost effective way to go for me...the JLC form or one the attoney may already have prewritten...
That JLC book also has some other forms that are very good as well such as their "pre-construction form"...PRECONSTRUCTION CONFERENCE FORM
DATE:
OWNER’S NAME: Mr. & Mrs.xxxx
ADDRESS: xxxxx Lane xxxx, NY
PROJECT ADDRESS:
I. CONSTRUCTION AGREEMENT AND NOTICES
It is acknowledged that Contractor has furnished Owner with the following documents and requests that the Owner carefully review all these documents prior to entering into an Agreement with Contractor:
A. Detailed Construction Agreement.
B. Other:
II. JOB-SITE PROCEDURES
No matter how much the Owner and the Contractor prepare for it, remodeling is disruptive in certain ways. However, to help us minimize this disruption, please read our company policies on each item and list the information asked for in the spaces provided. Thank you for helping us carefully consider many of the logistical details of the job site prior to the commencement of our work.
A. CHILDREN AND PET SAFETY
Please keep children and pets away from work areas at all times, including construction trenches and the debris pile.
We do _______ /do not ______ have a dog or cat that must be kept in a specific location. Instructions concerning dog or cat:etc etc...and their "Ups and Downs of Remodelling" form...DATE:
Mr.and Mrs.####
xxxx Lane ####, NY
PROJECT ADDRESS: #### Lane xxxx, NY
Dear Karen & Jon :
Remodeling projects seem to have some common high and low points for many owners. If you are a seasoned remodeling veteran, you may already know what to expect and may not need to read this letter. If you have not lived through a remodeling project before, however, you are probably approaching your project with some degree of both anxiety and excitement. The purpose of this letter is not to cast a shadow of doubt on your project before it starts, but rather to simply point out some of these high and low points that naturally occur in the course of most remodeling projects. This way, you will a have a realistic idea of what to expect.
First, every remodeling job creates some degree of disorder, dust,
etc etc
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Thanks everyone for your responses. You’ve all made some very good points.<!----><!----><!---->
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I do have The Contractor’s Legal Kit by JLC. Although I plan on using it, I do want to “tweak it,†as mentioned, to my personal circumstances. I want to do this by reviewing the forms alongside Gerstel’s chapter on contracts in his book, as well as adding a few things from my personal experience. Regardless of whether I tweak it or not (which I will do), I want a lawyer to review it anyway to make sure it’s legal in my area.<!----><!---->
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As far as why I would need 10 different contracts—that was partly hypothetical, since I haven’t selected the forms I want to have ready yet. However, I imagine I would need one for Lump Sum, one for T&M, and one for Subcontractors to start with. Then I would probably need to tweak an AIA contract for jobs from architects, and so on. I can see I need to give this some more thought.<!----><!---->
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Andy, it sure would be nice if you could share some of your man-hour estimates online. I can see you not wanting to give away your cost estimates, but your time estimates would be a great help to the rest of us in understanding estimating, especially with such a big project.<!----><!---->-T
I would recommend using the same contract for T&M jobs that you use for bid jobs.As far as AIA contracts go, I would wait until that need is presented. If you're "tweaking" AIA contracts, my guess is it will be on a case-by-case basis anyways.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>>Andy, it sure would be nice if you could share some of your man-hour estimates online. I can see you not wanting to give away your cost estimates, but your time estimates would be a great help to the rest of us in understanding estimating, especially with such a big project.<<<<Man hours has to differ from state to state and the town I'm in probably is one of the more expensive areas to live in so...so what I ask for will be very different then what you ask for. Taxes on LI are OUTTA-SIGHT!!!I think it gets back to what we charge as our mark up and administration fee (or whatever you wanna call it).
For the job I'm collecting numbers for will be probably 75% subbed out so there's no man hours there for me...just mark up/profit/administration fee.The work I'd take on I'm still debating in my mind what to charge with the way the economy is. I hear everything from $40 an hour up to $100 an hour plus your mark up.I think it's somewhat like how a real estate agent figures out what a house is worth. They do a Comparative Market Analysis in their area.
I do ask around my area what other contractors are asking for for similar work and even that I take with a grain of sea salt.I do know a cpl of big GC's that ask for 21% for mark up...where they get 21% I have no idea....or even if they're telling me the truth.As many seasoned carps know...these big jobs can be a real #### shoot trying to figure out how long things take especially when you can't use sq ft prices like for roofing and drywall.
I figure within the next two weeks I should have the numbers wrapped up and the quote given to the customer (GULP!). If all goes well...I'll be able to give you more definite information. I don't wanna steer anyone off the bridge with me...LOLView Image
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>>so I will ask an attorney which is the most cost effective way to go for me...the JLC form or one the attoney may already have prewritten...if you never have a dispute not covered by the contract, the pre-digested form is the way to go.I'll note that litigators love pre-printed contracts of all stripes and varieties.A version of the "full-employment for litigators" act.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Mike, Bob...anyone
What do Construction lawyers usually charge for something like this? I know it has to vary from state to state but in a coastal state where things are up there does anyone have an idea?A quick Google search brought this up. Seems they know how to use the internet b/c it came up all over the place.
http://www.nyconstructionlaw.com/I'll probably ask Shaggy what his thoughts are although we haven't spoken in awhile...but he does owe me at least some advice so...Was it DavidM that said he spent $2000? WOW....is it really THAT much???View Image
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A lawyer who's done this for a while should have most, if not all, the documents you need in the can already and they'll just need to be tweaked for your situation. I know you can get an attorney-drafted PA-compliant contract for between $2-300. Should be about the same where you are, I'd suppose.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.