There are always right ways and wrong ways to do things. When it comes to homebuilding, be it remodeling or new construction there is always either a so-so way of doing things, an ok way of doing things, or a fine way of doing things.
So it is with this one home I been working with a guy on who is actually a close aquaintance of mine. I’m not the GC on it or anything, I just been spying the job every so often per his request to see things are done right and being some “official” support behind the customer when he goes to complain to his home builder who I’ll keep nameless. The HO started having problems with this builder, and well, he asked me to help him understand what is reasonable, unreasonable, code, etc.
The customer is about to do settlement next week. This is supposed to be a FINE home in the low to mid 200s built by a very reputable builder in this area, one of the largest actually. This is the first time I ever got to see this builders work, though, and the first time I had anyone close to me who actually used this builder that could relate their experiences with them to me, so for being such a reputable builder in our area I was shocked at all the crap I saw and heard and makes me wonder how many other HOs this guy has ripped off by building just a mediocre home instead of a fine home.
To name only a few of the transgressions:
- Poor drywall corner beading
- Missed electrical outlet connections (no receptacle installed, just live wires in the box)
- Ceiling fan box not centered in room as spec’d out.
- Basement constantly getting flooded for what is spec’d out as a future living area
- HVAC ducting not run where spec’d. The HO designed the house and specifically left room for ducting runs which the builder signed off on. But no communication occurred with the HVAC contractor, and they ran ducting any way they wanted without regards for the preplanned routing.
- Vinyl siding holes cut WAY TOO BIG such that they don’t go around the trim boxes snugly for outside electrical devices
- A biggy, the window trim is riddled with dried up paint runs all over the place as if they were sprayed excessively to cause the runs
- It was spec’d to have a two drawer assembly in all sink cabinets. Only one drawer assemblies were put in and the contractor said they never heard of two drawer assemblies.
- Irregular blown in insulation..some places 4 or 5 inches deep, others 14inches deep.
The list goes on of some even worse transgressions still. But you get the picture. I gave my friend the name of my lawyer and told him enough is enough and to go to settlement and have the lawyer stop it dead in its tracks right there. He called him, he’s now being represented. The excuses of this builder shames our industry, it really does. Even the salesman who the HO deals with said the HO should get a lawyer. Now what does that say?
One of the biggest transgressions is that when the builder encountered a problem, they never mentioned it to the HO. They oft tried to cover it up only to have the snoopy HO come around and discover the plot when they thought he was at work. The HO is very reasonable and if the builder just went tohim to say “we can’t do this but can do this” he’d have been totally accepting. But since the builder always tried to cover their tracks it ticked the HO royally. The builder has yet to respond to the HOs request for a certain percentage as a refund for all the grief and turmoil and such. They always say they’ll talk about it later. Geesh.
Replies
After bending over backwards to get everything just right, along comes an a-hole who places all of our reputations into the questionable column. Did the HO check out any references or at the very least, the BBB? Good GC's do not become slugs overnight, they develop over a period of time. If this thing goes to court, you or the HO should do your best to get it into the local paper. Get a detailed complaint filed with the BBB.
geewhiz, another reason for DIY
I'm a bit confused. The home owner designed the house, including the HVAC system, but needed you to help him determine how well the home has been built?
If someone has the ability to design a home, why did he need your expertise?
And some of that stuff sounds pretty small potatos to me.
And - did he spec the waterproofing? What did he spec? Waterproofing or water damping? If he spec'd it, can he really complain if it isn't working? Can he show the problem is the workmanship? Or did he spec a Yugo and is now expecting a Mercedes?
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Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
The HO designed the house as far as dimensioning the sizes they wanted, placement of counters, fixtures, lights, how they wanted the stairwell landing, stuff like that. The HO is not an architect by any standard. The plans were spec'd by the HO like this, then taken to the contractor who then made "official" building plans from them all showing the dimensions the HO desired. In the process the builder made fine adjustments with the HO but for the most part the HO did a very good job making the plans.
No the HO did not spec out waterproofing, the HVAC system, etc. The HO knew there would be needs to route ducting to the second floor and thus allowed convenient pre-designed places the ducting should go by making large areas open such as an area 18" x 24" between the kitchen pantry and DR which now looks like a big open "goof" since the area was not used.
The HO spec'd out the color of brick, doors, cabinet hardward, colors of everything including shingles, etc, typcial stuff you do when working with a builder and enough of it not done as spec'd to create a very disappointing relationship between the HO and the builder.
Pyro,
Thanks for the further info, helps clarify things.
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Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
On the insulation factor, I had mine blown perfect, after a cou[le weeks of air coming in eaves and out ridge( my eaves are 100% open, no soffit yet) some of the insulation had settle toward center of house.
ceiling fan, maybe nothing to bolt to in center of house.
Most what I saw was punchlist items, wet basement look like design problem, maybe archtect error.
You cannot build a 100% perfect house, I tried, so I,m settling for 95%
Most what I saw was punchlist items, wet basement look like design problem, maybe archtect error.
You cannot build a 100% perfect house, I tried, so I,m settling for 95%
That's the impression I got.
As a home inspector, I get to see a lot of people express their expectations of what a new (or used house) should be like.
I have found that some have unrealistic expectations.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
"ceiling fan, maybe nothing to bolt to in center of house. "
Well, then, all he had to do was to PUT SOMETHING in the center to hang it from.
Excellence is its own reward!
exactly
Piffin
Precisely what I thought.
Someone else mentioned that for 200 g's that maybe you cant expect high-end. Well I disagree, when I built a house for habitat they got the same quality that I put into a 1 million dollar trim package.
The debate about the vinyl is foolish, wether or not you like the stuff there is still a right and a wrong way to install the stuff.
Doug
I really hated to pick on one thing like that because there are probably two sides to this one and I'm not picking either. I almost never do a job but that some item from each subcontractor has to be adjusted at some point in the process.
This job seems like some mines may have been laid before the troops got there and that not all of the troops carde or knew what they were doing. Overall, it seems to have suffered from lack of lead carp or manager, but with a self designing HO, I can imagine that he got in the way of some things too..
Excellence is its own reward!
Definitely sounds like there was no leadman/foreman on this job, or that same person was definitely not privy to all the promises the salesman made but didn't write down.
Honestly, unless your list is actually much longer - this sounds to me like a typical punch list. Probably 8/10 home owners in the market for a quarter million dollar vinyl home would not notice more than one of those items, and apparently this GC uses that statistic to his advantage. I will join the team who says make sure to get the basement WP issue resolved, and do your best to get the rest fixed too.
Personally, I don't see that "punitive damages" are warranted. Obviously it's gotten adversarial - but threatening to sue for punitive damages will only make completion of the house less likely. Heaven forbid he should have any warranty problems in the next year. If the GC owns the schedule and hasn't kept track of change orders for weather, then the GC isn't doing himself any favors..
Now.. rantmode: Any light fixture or fan located off center because "there's no joist to nail to" is complete crap. If that's the excuse you've been given, lord help you because the same foreman (or lack thereof) probably let the plumber get away with much worse, and those oversights are probably structural.
If your GC questions you on ANY of these items i.e. "I can't believe you want me to fix that" simply tell him "I can't believe you are trying to pass that off as quality work". The remind him that bad recommendations travel 100x faster than good ones...
There has always been a lead foreman on the job, the site supervisor. Trust me, the HO is not a pain in the arse type and has no unreasonable expectations. For low to mid 200's I'd certaily expect no paint runs on every piece of window trim, a properly finished patio and at a minimum adherance to the special requests I asked for and was told I'd have like the double drawer pull out assemblies for sink cabinets. I would also expect the vinyl siding to be cut properly around the trim rings, that the bricks be cleaned of mortar and that they'd even be the bricks I picked out. I would further expect that when I say a box needs to be moved because it was not centered between the windows as spec'd that it be moved.
The fan box was discovered at rough in...by me. I remeber how important the centering was to the HO. It was clearly off and clearly able to be adjusted. I know to some that seems like a pitiful thing to cry about, but I know if paid that much money and if something was that important to me it's not out of reason to expect such a simple request.
Every concern has been addressed to the site supervisor. There is no "war" going on here, no "heated" words or disrespect. The HO is no where of the type to act as such and for another the HO has been in full grin and bear it mode waiting for the GC to address the concerns. Some of them are addressed, but what perturbs the HO is that they had to say something to begin with.
yes there are two sides to every story. I am relating only that which I know with certainty thru observation, witnessed correspondence or witnessed verbal communications and some heresay the HO told me that I did not personally hear or read.
As to cost, the HO is a dear friend of mine. He more than has the money and means to pay for the house, he's not looking to get out of paying for anything. In fact, if the GC will just fix the things he's willing to settle with a negotiated compensation to reduce the house price but not by much. The HO doesn't want to rip anyone off, he just wants his house as it was promised and I think that that is more than reasonable.
Some things I told the HO they have to live with and has no room for complaint such as the wavy siding. There were a few electrical miscommunications that occurred, but I told him he'd make a big to-doo out of nothing really. The stair landing had to shrink from what he spec'd. It was an oversight but when discovered they never mentioned it was shrinking to the HO, he just went in one day and it was there...not to size. Iexplained, though their reasoning, can't change it. He understood. So in supporting him I think I'm being within reason. I think yoiu would agree if you could see the house yourself that the transgressions should not have been overlooked, though.
To my knowledge, the HO has never been in the way. He works during the day and every night or other night checks out the progress. Concerns are noted, then presented to the salesman who in turn addresses it with the site mgr. The methodology the HO has implemented is to raise the concern. If it goes unaddressed he raises it again, up to 3 times, then stops, notes it and moves on. His list is rather interesting that he plans to take to settlement. I'm seriously considering that the bank might raise serious issues at settlement, I dunno. Scary stuff.
the ceiling fan box was put on 2x blocking between I-joists. Ample room existed to shift it as requested.
the blown in insulation was inspected that evening after it was blown in. The HO didn't know it was going in that day, but derived it was done evidenced by the trail of celluose tracked through the house from the attic opening, otherwise I see your point and think it's a valid one and I wish that were the case.
Don't get me wrong guys, there were a LOT of things done right in this house. Overall aside from these issues that came up, this house is otherwise very well built. Maybe these are punchlist items, and in fact I suggested to the HO that there is usually a gopher that goes around prior to settlement to fix stupid crap like dings, paint touchups, drywall touchups, etc. But...a wet basement doesn't go on the punchlist and neither does grossly cut siding or bricks that haven't been clean.
The SINGLEMOST BIGGEST SCREW UP with this builder is that this HO responds well to a customer/builder relatoinship which was there prior to building in the design phase then went to hell once dirt was moved. The builder stopped talking to the HO and just started doing things not asked for, or on some extreme level. Things like the water pressure tank, they couldn't put it where the HO desired it, so they just put it where they had to. Never a word to the HO, he inspects and sees it was installed and not where spec'd, calls the builder and the builder says the sub couldn't put it where it was spec'd. So why no call, no discussion about how much more it would cost to try and put it where desired. The HO actually called the sub, and the sub said he was never told there was a spec'd place for it. The sub came back the next day and installed as spec'd. The builder lied to cover their screw up for not telling the sub of the spec'd location. The last 3 mons of this builder/customer relationship suddenly became consistent in this manner.
Just like also the patio.....it was poured. half of it got a broom/grooved finish, the other half is as smooth as a babys bottom. To date not one explanation has been given for this nor one single attempt to remedy. Builder just says they keep trying to find out how that happened.
GEESH!!!!! :)
My 2 cents...taking what you say at face value, knowing there are two sides to every story, etc...
The HO actually called the sub, and the sub said he was never told there was a spec'd place for it. The sub came back the next day and installed as spec'd. Either the sub is lying to cover the GC, or the sub-GC communications are bad, or the GC is a scum bag.
half of it got a broom/grooved finish, the other half is as smooth as a babys bottom. Again taking it at face value...somebody screwed up. Why wpould the concrete finisher only broom half a patio slab? Where was the supervision? If it's as blatant as you state, the the GC should figure out a way to make the entire surface the same texture.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Hi Elcid,
The things you were pinting out are part of what was on my mind when I said that it looks to me like there was no lead carp on this job. That is what he's there for - tell the plumber where to put the tank, tell the electrician where to put the licht fixture, interpret the plans and communicate when there is conflict.
the concrete job speaks wonders....
"Hey Joe, how come you are broom finishing that slab. I think it's supposed to be a smooth job."
"I duno Sam, tjhat's that way we usually do it"
"Well Joe, better check with the boss."
"Where is he?"
"I think he went off with so-and-so. He oughta be back soon"
"OK. I'll just wait to broom out the rest of this"
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Quitin time came and went with nobody to make a decision.
"Oh well, It's beer thirty...".
Excellence is its own reward!
My sympathies, I don't believe you or the HO are being unreasonable. I've come across a lot of hacks in my time. What I can't understand is how they stay in business.
The HO wanted my expertise because he knew I was big into my own world of construction and that I'm building my business on customer service, attention to detail, and a desire to represent our industry positively. As such they did not come to me initially when problems started figuring they could work it out on their own. But as time went on, and continued transgressions took place with little concern for how it varied from the spec and little concern to inform the customer, the HO finally asked me to help him monitor some things because he did not know what specifically was reasonable to complain about or not.
For example, the vinyl siding, if you look at the one side wall of the house on edge it is wavy. This upset the HO, but I informed him it's kinda a trade off he has to live with because wood studs bow and twist and no wall is ever perfectly smooth for this reason and others. You only notice it if uyou're looking for it, otherwise it looks like a nicely sided home. I don't think he has any points there.
Buton other issues, like how the siding was cut aroiund electrical trim rings he honestly wanted to know is that the best job he could expect and I said that it was really the worst he could expect, he's got a lot of points there. Other things the HO specifically brought to the attention of the builder, like to move a fan box to center of the room where it was spec'd. Sure no prob they said. It never happened and the rockers came in and that was the end of that. The list of complaints the HO derived was created in part with my input. Some things the HO must live with as it's part of the building process. But others there are no excuses for other than a builder who cares less and for that the HO should be reasonable in expecting some form of reimbursement for a house he did not exactly order I think.
A couple of comments.
1) From your list of problems, there doesn't seem to be anything that cannot and should not be taken care of before a final payment is made. Though a homeowner might be willing to let one or two of the problems slide, such as the off centered fan, there is no reason to pay in full until a good effort has been made to correct all the deficiencies.
2) I am not sure that I would assume that the largest builder in any area is a "fine" homebuilder. The best quality is more likely to be the result of a small outfit that is run by a driven individual who will not compromise. Having this builder available to do your work is another problem.
3)You are right on the nose about the biggest transgression, the loss of trust between the HO and the builder. Once that trust is gone, there is no problem too small that it can be overlooked because it raises doubts about the entire building.
I hope your friend can put aside his disappointments and reach a fair settlement and that the builder realizes his mistakes. I know, a far fetched hope.
1) From your list of problems, there doesn't seem to be anything that cannot and should not be taken care of before a final payment is made. Though a homeowner might be willing to let one or two of the problems slide, such as the off centered fan, there is no reason to pay in full until a good effort has been made to correct all the deficiencies.
I agree with #1, but the builder has an awful lot of work to do before next Wednesdays settlement, and has yet to begin to correct the deficicies.
2) I am not sure that I would assume that the largest builder in any area is a "fine" homebuilder. The best quality is more likely to be the result of a small outfit that is run by a driven individual who will not compromise. Having this builder available to do your work is another problem.
The builder touts themselves as one of the best builders. My assumption they're a fine builder but they build in the "fine" range dollarwise for our area.
3)You are right on the nose about the biggest transgression, the loss of trust between the HO and the builder. Once that trust is gone, there is no problem too small that it can be overlooked because it raises doubts about the entire building.
Exactly which is what has occurred. Even minor problems the HO might otherwise live with are now big things to the HO just due to the lackof respect an assumptions the builder has made without consulting the HO.
First, it sounds like there are a few problems that need to be fixed before closing. Par for the course. All home building projects have problems, the only variable is how they are dealt with. If your friend wanted a WYSIWYG house he should have bought an existing home. The only thing I see on your list that stands out is the leaky basement. That definitely needs to be remedy ASAP.
All your friend needs to do is submit a punchlist, with 2 categories: "must be fixed before closing" and "other items", with maybe the stipulation that the "other items" need to be signed off in writing before closing. There needs to be some room for negotiation too, and he needs to be willing to delay closing too. Bring a lawyer in and he'd (the HO) would just be shooting himself in the foot.
Other than that, you said "This is supposed to be a FINE home in the low to mid 200s built by a very reputable builder in this area, one of the largest actually." Sorry bud, but that is not in the $ range of fine home building, unless it's a > 1400 sq ft house. Bob's earlier analogy of "did he spec a Yugo and is now expecting a Mercedes?" sounds right on target. The vinyl siding speaks volumes. I'm not bashing vinyl, but it does have it's place. I'll bet the builder selection was based on low bid too.
Builder selection wasn't based solely on bid price but was a factor.
I hear your vinyl comments as speaking to being less than "fine." That is a war I won't get into because I don't fully agree. I've seen some very nice vinyl jobs. In my area also a house in the mid to low 200's is pricey enough that you can expect a reasonable "fine" home. A mercedes-like home starts in the 350s but for 235's to 240s ones expectations are reasonably high enough to not put up with the crap this HO has.
A lawyer is necessary in this case. The HO has REPEATEDLY addressed the concerns with the builder who said they'll be taken care of. At the time of this writing, very little has been taken care of. Wednesday is settlement. If the builder worked 24hrs til then they can't get it all done.
The HO is reasonable and will delay signoff 2 mos if necessary to get it done right along with modest compensentory damages also because the house was guaranteed by a certain date by contract. They may need 2 mos to fix it all, too. The brickwork is a shameful mess and wasn't even what the HO selected, plus they never washed the bricks, mortar all over the place.
My atty I found out has sued this builder before for things such as this. Unfortunate but in this day and age you're shooting yourself in the foot witout an atty because all other fires under the builder have failed, so what else is left?
"The HO wanted my expertise because he knew I was big into my own world of construction and that I'm building my business on customer service, attention to detail, and a desire to represent our industry positively."
If the above is true, then why did he not hire you?
You get what you pay for. Don't get me wrong, this GC needs to correct any problems regardless of his low bid price and the fact that he probably hired subs based on their price and not on their quality of work. He has no excuse. However, everything rolls down hill and when you shop for price don't expect the GC to hire the best drywall guy in town or the best electrician. I am not saying your friend deserves this sub standard workmanship, I am just saying sometimes the lower price has negative consequences."One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions"
The HO did not hire me because I was not able to build his house within the specified timeframe. I did work with the HO at various stages as far as giving input into some things he should consider as he created the design and such but that was really the extent of it other than when he asked me to come in later when problems developed. As it is I also didn't have any concerns for the HO because again as far as I knew it was a reputable builder in the area that puts up many many homes and to this date hadn't heard anything bad.
There were at least one, maybe two ower bidders, the price wasn't the sole basis, but as with any home it is always a driving factor. The HO told me two factors based their decision, one being money, the other reputation. This builders name is all over our area. Reputation means MORE to the HO than cost, so you can imagine the utter disdain and disappointment that has arisen from this.
An average decent home in our area goes from 120's to 160's. This customer is paying low to mid 200's. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect correct electrical, masonry, waterproofing, etc work to be performed that is above standard for that price. For all the size this home is it's well within reason. Sure you get what you pay for, but the HO is paying a "fine" home price given the size of the house and quality that was spec'd out.
I'm gonna make a guess that the maybe reason the siding was hacked at the electrical penetrations was because the siding was done before the electrical and therefore it was the electricians who hacked the siding. Just a guess.
BTW - how about a few specifics on the general house size/design:
One story or 2?
Heated square footage?
Other square footage - porches, decks, etc.?
___ (#) bathrooms?
1 or 2 car garage?
Brick on ___ sides.
Special interior features?
Full basement?
Did house price include lot?
Located in what town, etc?
Good suggestion about the electricians maybe botching the siding. I'll have to consider that and ask the HO if they have info to prove that.
Now for specs:
Two story wood frame house. OSB wall sheathing. Sturd-I-Floor joists. 3BR, 1 MBR. Open space floorplan for the KT/DR/LR. Two full size baths, one 1/2 bath. full below ground level basement. Generously sized two car garage. Sand mound septic system. Well pump. Heat is geothermal ground source. House dimensions are approx 45-50' x 20-25'. All vinyl side with a decorative brick accented "dummy" chimney. Garage is attached to the house with an unfinished future room over it that creatively blends into the main home. Lot was already paid for and owned by HO. Location: vicinity of Carlisle, PA.
Communications need to be streamlined.
Communications need to be in writing.
Factual, no emotion, no threats, no hint of legal action.
Communicate...get the facts straight...get the things that need fixed, fixed...then close.
Address the letter to the head honcho, send it certified, return-receipt requested. Mention all problem areas, comparing what you have to what was expected by the homeowner, what is spec'd in the paperwork. What you have, and what you want, which is to have the problems fixed. Right now you don;t want moneym, you don;t want punative damages, you want the house that was spec'd for the contract price. Right? Copy the letter to all others in the supposed communications chain-of-command to keep all of them in the loop.
Give them 7 business days to reply to the letter.
Start off step-by-step, in a business-like manner. This is Step #1.
Mongo, in my original posting I was trying to keep it brief and so left out lots of things the HO has done to try and get things fixed. I was only highlighting some of the key parts of the disputes that arose. In the interim time I've shed a few more facts in response to postings to my original post. Here is a tad more:
The HO has communicated on numerous times with the owner of the building company. Emails have been almost a daily thing and the owner has responded on many occasions to the same effect of "ooops, sorry, we'll take care of it."
The problem here is that the HO has proceeded in a reasonable methodical manner that was not disrespectful, hateful, revengeful, or anything. The HO has demonstrated a tremendous amount of patience and now has just finally had it with the persistent mouth-talk from the company that seems only meant to appease and do nothing more. Close coordination between the owner, builder, and salesman has been ongoing in the last 3 months.
Originally this started out with little things that were bearable and livable with. The concerns were raised, though, but the HO was appeased and left it go. Then another thing happened, then another, to where it started to get where the builder was building somone elses house and not the one the HO asked for it seemed. All concernes were professionally addressed to the builder who responded like a broken record "we'll take care of it." As it were very little of the concerns were addressed or show signs of startingto be addressed.
Closing is now to occur on Wednesday. If the HO delays closing there are penalties and increased interest rates. The small punchlist items haven't been fixed yet such as drywall dings, paint touchups and the like, to say nothing of the siding being fixed, bricks cleaned etc.
What do you do when it appears that the builder is relying more on the fact that the HO needs to move in and so will likely just say to crap with it, accept the defects and then the builder wipes his brow "whew, don't have to do all that crap now." Thing is this HO doesn't have to move right away and can delay closing, but there is that penalty and increased interest in the back of his mind he expects to be resolved.
what do you do when the builder gives lip service? I suspect that the majority of HO really don't fuss over much of their homes as it is being built. They spec out a house, tell the builder to go to it and wait for the keys and pay a visit every so often to see how things are. But this HO, when he started seeing the little things being screwed up that he asked for, he decided to just pay mind to the entire job. He's not out for blood, not looking to say this or that is wrong, he's looking for his house to be built as requested. Such a simple request. Most HO might shrug off these problems, to the builders advantage, but this is one HO that feels their dollars should buy them what they've been promised.
Don't you think it is fair to ask for compensation back when they didn't even use the right bricks chosen? What is the builder gonna do, rip down the chimney and rebuild it? I dunno what should be done honestly. But it seems that with a delayed closing likely and harm done to the HO due to the delay, an atty and legal action is the remedy here. And I hate lawyers, I have friv lawsuits or those that abuse the system. Idon't see this as that. Should I?
Emails, phone calls, love notes left on toilet paper...all mean a little, but they don't mean a lot when it comes down to the legal side of things. An argument can be made that they do carry weight...and they do...but still, they don't mean as much as firing a shot across the builder's bow via a certified letter, RRR.
Send him that and he knows you mean business.
Again, that's your FIRST STEP in real-world documentation. Go ahead and save and print all emails. Try to recollect a phone log with dates, content of conversations, etc.
Regarding penalites and interest...who holds the financing now? Whio will be owed these penalties and interest? I'm asking if you will owe the bank directly or the builder directly. If the bank, talk to their loan office, tell then the problems, and ask for an extension. Does the bank want to own a house with holes in it? Nope. They don't want you (or your friend) to either. I've never had a problem with the bank sliding a few days, weeks, or months, in order to get things right. After all, this is not your fault, right? The bank's fear is that your friend walks away and they own the house. The builder's fear should be that closing gets delayed and he pays a few more months interest on the construction loan.
Realize that once you close, you're accepting the house "as is". And that's a legal fact. You can offer the builder a letter at closing. A punch list. He either has these items fixed prior to closing, or you close but knock $XX,XXX off the closing price to enable you to fix them later. Don't drop this in the lap of the builder at closing, though...notify him tomorrow via the phone or in person, and also send him a letter explaining your offer...you guessed it...certified, return-receipt requested. The law does not like suprises, but it does appreciate a paper trail.
Forget what's been done, and start doing what needs to be done from a legal perspective. The language of your posts leads me to believe that that's the avenue your friend seems headed down.
All that said...make sure that what your friend is fighting for is truly worth fighting for. I'm not trying to trivialize his problems, but as a weak example, if he's planning on holding up the closing in oder to get a few drywall dings repaired...that's just plain silly.
Get all the paperwork in order and visit the builder tomorrow. Explain what needs to be done before Wednesday and see if he'll do it before Wednesday. If your friend still wants to close have the builder put in in writing that it'll get done after closing. You need mutual assurances for this closing to occur. It's much less expensive to hammer things out now than in court.
Great response back, Mongo, thank you. I hear all you're saying, lotsof good points.
The bank holds financing at present (Cons. loan). The bank will likely end up with a good house if it were to fall into their hands. I mean, it's a house, livable, should get a CO, etc. The problems are that it's not exactly what the HO ordered, so the bank per se prob won't fuss over that. They may fuss over the vinyl job, the patio job, and basement leaks, though.
The HO feels the cost is worth the fight. The cost of the home has increased over the duration of the beginning months of construction and the HO agreed to those increases. Now, with paying so much more money and not getting what was spec'd out and agreed to....see the contention? He was able to total up the overruns due to their screw ups, assigned some value (modestly, not unreasonable) to things such as having to hire someone to fix the window trim, door, bricks, etc, etc, and the total ammassed to around $15-$17K, a very significant amount. I'd plop down a grand to an atty if it will be what finaly gets the issues resolved, or reasonable compensation back for not getting what was asked for.
Well placed words.
Excellence is its own reward!
One thing to remember
It's awfully easy to walk through someone elses project and point out all the things YOU would have done differenlty/better.
Yeah, you're right. Like looking at all the window trim, I'd paint it without runs. I'd also use the right bricks the cust ordered. I'd broom finish the entire patio, not just half and leave the other half smoother than paper. I'd build a basement to prevent flooding of it. I'd also install the siding correctly. I'd paint the door green to match the shutters, not a mulberry red color, to name a few things.
Yeah, I guess when I walk thru a house that I know isn't what was promised, I'd likely see that there are ways I'd have done it better...to the plans promised. :)
Pyroman----you are pretty defensive for a guy who apparently thinks he is flawless. LOL
I think it's great that your friend has such a perfect guy looking out for him.
but---I do have to wonder-------If the builder you seem to have such a problem with---was free to pick over one of your jobs-----I wonder what he would like to point out?
BTW---why did you post this topic?did you only want people to agree with you?I have a pretty strong feeling that you aren't that open to criticism yourself.
Ah turn the tables, eh? I don't mind, I can take that. So what if the builder came to my jobsite and critiqued my work? Good question. I don't claim to be flawless, I do not know everything there is to know about everything. I know a lot of what works, I know a lot of the code, I have subs that I know are exceptional that fill the gap in knowledge when needed, reliable excavators, and great concrete finishers, etc. Why do I have all this? Because I want, and intend on succeeding this biz if it kills me because A) I love it with all my heart, and B) I hate seeing people get ripped off or otherwise disappointed when they make such a huge investment as a home. I love to listen to needs and desires, then make them come to life. It's my rush, my pride, my name. I think they should get what they paid for. If delivering that costs me more the cost is passed to the HO in the price of the contract of course, but they get what they paid for. Old fashioned? Maybe, but those are my core values.
I"m defensive for the HO in this case because I've obviously seen the work of other contractors. I've seen $450-$500K homes built dirt cheap as well as with the best of fine craftmanship. But this builder takes the cake with me. Whereas sure I can find criticism with other builders as they can with even my own work, I think this builder rises to the level of absurd. I really really wonder just how many HOs this builder has ignored as they are my friend, got away with it, and the HO just settled with things as they were? I don't know, but if this house for my friend is atypical then I would consider it a moral tragedy to not be supportive of him. I can't answer every question or concern he has had. I could only address those I felt comfortable and confident in. Please know that I've been kind in giving the builder the benefit of the doubt on more than one occasion.
I've taken sides here only because of what is at stake. I know my friend for years has been saving up for this house, he had set ideas and plans he wanted he developed thru the years. No it's not a monster house, but it is this persons goal and dream home that he and his spouse have invested time in creating. This builder has dampened that enough that the HO has decided time is up to listen to more lip service and see nothing done to remedy a raised concern. Sure there are more things to worry about in life than whether or not the front door matches the shutter color. But the principle here is....it was supposed to match, so do it, what is unreasonable about expecting that out of your builder?
So yes, I'm defensive for the HO in this case. I know full well if a client came to me with a concern I'm not gonna look the other way and slack on it. To the best of my ability I wish to give the client what they desire. They're putting food on my table, i can say "thank you" with some flexibility I think. In the process represent our industry well.
AS to my taking criticism? I welcome it, because I believe something can be learned every day. I don't takeit personal, I mull it over and find the gold nugget of value in it and retain it...spit out the bones, keep the meat type of thing.
Hey, to all who has read this and responded, if I came across as not accepting of criticism or a "know it all" then I've misrepresented myself. My original posting was brief in detail so I did't really explain much of what all was going on per se. I don't know everything there is to know and I find critique of my own work a positive way to improve even my own stuff to help me succeed in this biz.
We all read and participate in this forum to learn, to help others to learn and to test out our ideas with the expectation that we will hear from all sides.
It never hurts us to hear about a builder who has screwed up because it should be a poignant lesson about what can happen to us. In fact one of the reasons we get defensive is because we have all had customers who were impossible to satisfy. Sometimes it seems that we can do no right and all we want is to see the end of the job. We may have gone back a dozen times to try to make the person happy but we only seem to be making things worse. If you haven't run into this nightmare yet, you haven't been in business long enough.
All we can do is our best and Pyro's story is a warning to us about what happens when we don't. I hope that your friend can work this out. I encourage him to be patiently firm but be willing to seek a compromise which will address most of his needs.
Very well said. Somehow I do think it'll work out to where everyone is satisfied, but had to be done with a little forceful persuasion....maybe? No, I haven't had the problem...yet....of never being able to please someone, but I'm also not a full timer in the biz yet, rather working my way in that direction. If I ever get in this situation like my friend, all I know is that I want to be fair and reasonable and deliver.
I posted the topic just as general discussion. I believe that most people on Breaktime want to do a fine and excellent job for the homes they build, repair, and remodel. I havent' seen anything that categorizes most people on breaktime as the typical "shoddy" construction worker. Sometimes it can be encouraging to hear the horror stories of others, and learn from them. The biggest nugget of knowledge I hope everyone gets from this topic is the fresh reminder that communication is such a tremendous asset between the builder/HO/subs and mustn't be neglected.
Though I can't say for sure, the appearance with the builder is that the builder lost sight of the importance communication is particularly with my friend. He feels the builder just has taken a course of action of ignoring him....."yeah yeah right, guy, I hear your concern, we'll fix it now go away."
I just thought that we all work to be the best in our industry, we can learn from the horrors of those that seem to not deliver what is said will be delivered.
Pyro, you threw me for a bit of a loop when you included "fine homebuilding" and "vinyl siding".
I am an owner/builder at the moment, not in the "trades" per se, but a competent carpenter et al. As I am on a budget, I try to keep soooooooo much in perspective; if I'm looking for something real cheap, I expect that, if I'm looking for something reasonable, I except that, if I'm looking for high-end, I expect that. What I don't expect is cheap end with high end results, and visa versa.
I don't know, there are so many grey areas all in between. Currently, I'm dealing/working with my stucco guy; very professional, gang-busters during the start, and now we're coming down to the nitty-gritty before he gets all paid out. He is as anal as I am about things, but there are some things he needs to take care of even though he thinks he's finished. Plus, we're dealing with finish stuff now i.e. before painting (me doing that).
The latter is one of the better sub's I've worked with. I think I got a pretty decent deal on my drywall guy at a $1/square in this area--hanging and taping. I was pleasantly surprised overall on that end--there were a few things, but more on my end that I should have taken care of before or during the hanging started.
Ceiling fan box not centered in room as spec'd out.
Thats all we know, it does not say how far, it could be has little as 1 inch. Or it could be in a werid shape room like a L shape, then where would center be.
I really think 99 % of people could get it close to center but he said "as spec"
Now my ceiling fan in my bedroom is off centered, it a big room, I wanted it over the bed not center of room. Maybe he spec something werid, why did they not catch the rough in box before drywall. Maybe he had some crazy wife who change order. maybe they was a beam, no room for box. maybe added later, after framing, no access. Maybe hvac duct. maybe, maybe ,maybe. could be alot of reason off center to the nats a$$ center of room.
Let me tell a little story. Last week I had to readjust my satelite due to tree limb. I call the guy and said I was rained out could he come do it. He said Yea but it be late. Never showed. Next day he called me at work and said he went out, no body home he tried to fix it, had to move the satelite. I got home still not working.
Now he going to send me a bill.
I can refuse to pay due to.
1, nobody was home
2. move satelite without permission
3. added hole to my vinyl eaves
4. still broken.
Or I can pay the guy because he was doing me a favor. What I,m saying is the builder is proberly a good guy and the HO looking for some loophole to not pay ( like i was example, nick picking) we do not know how much off center,
Since you were the owner's eyes ...
You should have seen the A/C ducts were wrong before the drywall went up. That was the time to fix that.
You should have seen the waterproofing was not done right prior to backfilling. That was the time to fix that.
I will not go on.
I was only the HO eyes for like the last 3 months because up to that point the builder/HO relationship was managable enough to the HO that they thought the few problems that started coming up could be controlled. The last 3 mos, for whatever reason, it just seemed like things fell apart. Things started to look not as promised, questions arose. He just brought me in for my opinions, understanding, and explanations (when I could offer any). I did not see the basement waterproofing. I don't know the quality, material, or method of application used. I assumed it was a good job, til the HO started telling me how ponds form in his basement one day.
The HO and I did mention the ducting issue. yes there was time to change it..for a cost. See, this was one time the GC did be honest and say that they forgot to tell the HVAC guys that there were pre-planned routes the HO designed into the house. But, it was too late. It was all installed. The GC was willing to have it moved to the HOs preplanned routes....for additional cost.
It seems to me that this got away from the HO along time ago when he/she did not stop the GC at the time the first problem was noted. Waiting until the end is not a good practice not matter how big or small the job is. I hope the HO had a written contract and if he did he should have followed up with written punch lists as the job progressed.
Your in a tough spot my friend.
The HO has been raising the concerns as they arise. The ducting for example. Installed over two days and the HO goes in and says "what the crap, no preplanned routes were used" and the next day the HO was on the horn to the builder.
yeah this started early on, and was manageable. Then all hell broke loose as far as things just falling apart the last 3 mos. No communication with subs is a big part of it.
I"m sure this will work out. It's just that I can't believe my eyes at some of what I've seen by a reputable builder.
I just read an article in the paper about a contractor who takes 3-4 calls a month from HOs whose contractors have walked off the job or didn't even show up. I thought I was the only one out there rescuing the HOs and trying to build a better name for contractors.
Rainy day in the Northeast! Take Care.