Like a lot of people, I’ve been slow lately. So I’m not turning anything away. I’ve done work for this homeowner before, on a different property. Now her husband’s health is failing, and he is unable to complete his honey-do projects around the house. And some of them are outside the scope of homeowner stuff anyway. So she calls me, ‘hoping that it won’t cost too much’.
first off, stone veneer over this brick, 3′ x 20′ approx. And finish the siding at the top of the gable. Maybe I should remove the brick? At least the top course. Its a moisture issue, methinks.
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Edited 8/27/2009 1:56 pm by Huck
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they want all the eaves boxed in, around the house. Rough-sawn plywood, I assume.
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The fascia replaced (and painted) all the way around the house.
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They want this **** applied over the stucco on one 8' x 20' wall.
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Edited 8/8/2009 1:45 pm by Huck
This door is just tacked up - they bought it and never installed it. The jamb is a rotted mess. I have to replace the window where the a/c is, and move the a/c to a metal building in back.
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Edited 8/31/2009 6:49 pm by Huck
this is the wall they want me to put the siding over
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Edited 8/31/2009 6:49 pm by Huck
rebuild the patio, 10' x 20', mineral felt roll roofing over plywood sheathing.
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The patio slider comes out, with a standard exterior swinging door and a window going back in.
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re-stucco the damaged walls and replace that window on the left.
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you can't see very well, but there are about 10 yapping "yorkies" inside that house!
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That is nice!!!(sarcasm)
The only good that will come out of that mess is your paycheck!!!! Keep thinking that as you work around the house!!!!!
Sometimes work sucks.
Almost too scared to ask... But, what's in the tub?
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that's apparently where the laundry water drains toView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Hooch. The only reason that Huck's considering the job at all.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I thought maybe that, or a meth lab!
Eechh! Gray water recycling.
At least they've got a b**chin' hot tub, as shown in your photo.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
why do you think that type of siding is junk...
is it it's condition or because of the type it is...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
why do you think that type of siding is junk...is it it's condition or because of the type it is...
probably a little of both - it was advertised to them as an easy homeowner applied product, just nail it right over anything and everything. Doesn't add anything to the house, in my opinion.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Some type decorative/structural support for this sagging corner. I'm thinking corble.
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Edited 8/31/2009 6:50 pm by Huck
Overall, just a lovely project. I'm wondering how much will get eliminated when they see the cost, or is it just me that will be eliminated from the project?
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Edited 8/31/2009 6:51 pm by Huck
At least most of it is straight forward, nothing hidden.
You know she's going to balk/groan at the price and try to nickel and dime you, so you might as well itemize the bid to begin with, making sure that you figure each part by the day, not by hour so that you're covered no matter what.
I'd give her a labor and materials price for each item, let her decide what her priorities are on her own. No discount for multiple items or anything else she comes up with.
BTW, I believe that patio roof will need a torch down application if you expect it to last.
Edited 8/6/2009 4:12 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
we use that type of siding here a lot up to 24' lengths...
it is put over and on everything...
but not without a considerable amount of prep and set up...
then again some install it like vynal...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
How would you prep that stucco wall? Can this stuff really be nailed over stucco, or should I strip the wall down to the framing, put on felt and then the siding?
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Edited 8/31/2009 6:52 pm by Huck
done right it looks good...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I edited my post to you, but probably not in time. How would you prep that stucco wall?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
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as ruff as those walls are.. strip...
then there is noQ's about flatness and the firring being ankored solidly... firring would be 2x4's.. that is a lot of added flashing, extensions and boxing... way easier to strip to the sheathing and do it right... skip the added variables...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
thanksView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
stripped to the studs...
double or half lapped 30# felt and nailed to the studs...
but this way leaves issues...
or fired and felt over the stucco...
felt is 15 this time and half lapped..
also, this way boxing the windows is needed and ramped up water penatration prevention is an absolute...
in the long run..
I prefer sheathing/felt/siding... lot less problems all around...
use SS ring shanks and don't forget to flash the butts...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I installed that siding on a couple houses. 1/2 osp & housewrap Would have preferred felt. Mitered outside corners and coped inside corners. Looks OK but not a fan of installing it.
She really just wanted me to use up what's left, along the top of the wall (what you see above the fence, from the street), and leave the stucco below. Seems like I'd be better off to buy some more if needed, and just do the whole wall. Otherwise, maybe water table between 'em?
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If they would let me I would get rid of brick and stucco. That is a really bad install. Take it all down and start over would be best.
Depends on how hungry you are I guess. Tough to associate your name on that.
Oh yeah, Huck sided my house.
the hose wrap did no good...
there are premitered IS/OS corners for that stuff....
yur 3rd house will be the charm...
after awhile it gets to be cake and pie.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Pre mitered What fun would that be? No third I hope
The damage to the existing stucco wall is from the sprinklers that are keeping the lawn that nice green in a desert. Installing a wood product over stucco damaged by the sprinklers is a recipe for disaster. The brick under the "log" siding is probably a good system in this instance. As, the brick is probably a lot more water resistant than the "logs" are. You are working in a desert. 90% or more of the water damage will be from water applied by the home owner, not from rain or other environmental moisture..Edited 8/6/2009 9:58 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
Edited 8/6/2009 9:59 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is $ flow.....
Unless these folks just bought this house, I'd get more upfront deposit than I might typically, and try to stay dead even or ahead in my draws.... From the looks of this dump, I'd say they haven't spent a dime on it for a loooong time, and the guy won't want to part with the thousands it will cost to do this work correctly.
My guess based on past experience is that the husband won't look at you 'cause he's pissed. He no doubt started all these half azzed attempts at "improvement", didn't finish any, and his wife finally said, "I'm calling someone to fix all this stuff once and for all."
Strictly conjecture on my part, but I've seen similar situations before, and more than once. One of the reasons I've considered myself blessed that probly 80% of my work is new, with the occasional addy, and almost no repair work.
Be careful....
Bing
All those little dogs inside would have been a red flag in my book.The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
The Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum Tavern
Yup, and if the outside of the house looks like that, and they have even 5 dogs inside.....bet it's nasty inside too.
Bing
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Awww ... aren't they so cute.
They are probably the reason they need you to be affordable. Dog food and vet's bills add up.
I feel for you on that place.
Where to start and finish and still look good and not stepping in the doggie doo to boot.
and not stepping in the doggie doo to boot.
Next door neighbor: "I see they got another carpenter over there. Should we set up the goal posts again and wait for the doggie drop kicks to commence.?"
"Yea sure. You got the score card from last time?"
I would shovel sand against the tide at this point but something tells me whatever price you give is to much for them.
This is down the street from them - give you some idea of the neighborhood.
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That project reminds me of tring to polish a t@rd!
Brian
heh heh heh. And I wanted to be a contactor, and built beautiful homes!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
OK, I don't know if I'm high or low, or too this or not enough that, but here's the email I sent this morning. I'm really feeling torn on this one, I need the work, but do I really want this job? Anyway, had to something, so I sent this:
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Hello
Here is the estimate I have been working on. This is just an estimate, so please don't consider this a bid. But it gives us a ballpark idea of costs, and since I have a bit of time invested in preparing this, I didn't want to spend too much more time getting the exact figures, until I knew whether or not any of this work was really going to happen!
If these figures are in line with your budget, I will proceed to the next step, which is a bid with a final price.
The cost difference is minimal between plywood soffits under the eaves, and stucco, I estimated it at only $100 difference. I personally think stucco would look best, and be less mainenance in the long run, but its your call.
I did not include the cost of moving the air conditioner, hauling off the debris, or addressing the washroom plumbing issues (you didn't mention it, but while we're there taking care of everything else, you will might want to address that also).
As I mentioned, these prices are just estimates at this point, so they should be good for a few weeks. But PLEASE contact me by phone or email, at your convenience, to let me know the status of this project -even if you decide not to do it, please let me know. There is nothing more frustrating than spending hours on an estimate or proposal, submitting it, then hearing...nothing!
Thanks again for allowing me to submit this estimate, and I wish you both (and all your little yappers too!) a safe and relaxing vacation!
Sincerely, Huck
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estimate:
scope of work:
Stone veneer over brick in front of garage, approx. 3’ x 20’
My research shows that the right way to do this is to remove the brick first and go back with the stone veneer. The cost for the stone veneer, as well as the labor and any additional materials needed to do the job right, will probably be about $1600.
Siding on west end of garage, use remaining pieces (figure use from top down, so that siding is seen over fence when looking from front of house.
The right way is to remove the stucco where the wood is going – to put the wood over the stucco would probably create some problems. Labor (& misc. materials) cost estimate $500
Enclose eaves. Approx. 450 square feet.
Labor and materials using plywood - estimate $ 2100
Labor and materials using stucco- estimate $2200
Replace rotted and missing fascia, approx. 220 lineal feet, paint fascia throughout.
Labor and materials, estimate $1800
Seal finished eaves and wood siding
Labor and materials estimate $450
Remove sliding glass door at rear patio, replace with 3’ 0†x 6’ 8†swinging exterior door (no glass) and 2’6†x 3’ 0†vinyl dual-pane tempered glass window (no grids). Drywall and stucco as needed.
Labor and materials estimate $950
Add dog-door in wall north of fireplace (no plumbing or electrical)
Labor and materials estimate $150
Structural / decorative support member at front porch roof eave (sagging)
Labor and materials estimate $225
Replace kitchen window 3’ 0†x 3’ 0†with vinyl dual-pane window, no grids.
Labor and materials estimate $200
Replace bedroom window 6’ 0†x 3’ 0†with vinyl dual-pane window, no grids
Labor and materials estimate $450
Install egress door at back of garage (to backyard), use existing uninstalled door
Labor and materials estimate $200
Rebuild patio in backyard, 10’ x 20’, mineral felt roll roofing
Labor and materials estimate $1200
Repair and refinish damaged stucco throughout.
Labor and materials estimate $950
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Wow...at first glance I'd say all of that is very reasonable. You didn't even add in "pain and suffering" compensation for all those yappy mutts. Based on the look of that place though, I bet less than half of it get's hired.To the Mods/Sysop: I think found a bug in Prospero's software....when you hit "view full message" the reply button is no longer available. Could be a browser thing. I'm running FF 3.0.13Scott.
I think that's always been the case.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
This is great - you guys are the exact opposite of what I have to hear from my clients all the time - I love it! I'll deal with some of the price issues you guys brought up if this thing ever looks like it might get off the ground. Its been over a month since I had a paying job, so my perspective might be tainted - by hunger! Hah. Man, I sure am glad the recession is almost over now! ;)View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I'm kinda torn on the pricing thing. Although I agree that you're low I'm also aware that Bakersfield ain't the land of milk and honey, never has been.
Folks there are tighter with a buck than anywhere I know of in SoCal. The peculiar regional economics play a big part in that, I suppose. Part agricultural, part rail/transportation hub, nothing high end to speak of.
I remember going out to Bakersfield on sales calls, many years ago, and finding the disinterest there to be ankle deep, like dust that no one had the energy to sweep up.
its an odd economy here, not really part of so. cal. in that regard
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although I have to add, working on my mom's place in the No. Hollywood/Burbank area, I've found they're just as tight or tighter than Bakersfield right now. One neighbor, a veterinary doctor, wanted a new door stoop poured, her front porch tiled and the old broken walkway removed and a new concrete walkway poured, if I could keep it under $600!! I told her I didn't think I could buy materials for that price.
Another neighbor liked the gate I built for my mom's neighbor, wondered if I could build him a large one for his driveway. He gave me his sob story (recent cut in pay, hard times, etc.) so I told him I could build him a nice one, with a wheel, remove the old plastic one, and install the new one and paint it, for $600. More if he wanted a fancier gate. He said Thanks but no thanks.
I looked at a kitchen remodel for another neighbor - gave her a ballpark price based on jobs I've done in Bakersfield. She about fainted, said she could get it a lot cheaper, and I guess she did, I've seen them working on it.
Its getting to the point I'm almost afraid to bid anything!
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Edited 8/12/2009 5:41 am by Huck
I suspect that the Burbank NoHo economy is partly based on the large percentage of retired people there. Reminds me of Johnny Carson's running jokes about Burbank's older residents.
You mentioned a kitchen remodel so I'll throw in my two cents on that subject.
As you must know, the many thousands of tract homes built in Duh Valley during the forties and fifties had built-on kitchen cabinets. Frames built onto the finished plaster walls with pine boards, plywood ends with plywood doors hung on junk hardware.
One winter when I was visiting my parents in their typical 50's tract home for Christmas, I proposed a quick remodel of the old kitchen which they agreed to.
After measuring the doors and drawer fronts, I called a couple of small cabinet shops for prices on new oak doors and drawer fronts. I found a guy I liked in Van Nuys and gave him the order. He called his door supplier and had the doors made in about three days.
In the mean time I pulled the old doors off, filled the screw holes, sanded the frames, then repainted the entire kitchen, including the cabinets, in antique white semi-gloss. I also laid a new linoleum floor and changed the light fixtures.
Finally I spent about half a day, installing the new oak doors with European hinges and white porcelain pulls. Wow! Great improvement! Like night and day.
I liked the contrast of oak doors on white frames so well that I plan to use it in my new home. Very clean and distinctive, country kitchen feeling.
Very minimal disturbance to the daily routine. Nothing was removed from the cabinets. Only the drawers needed to be emptied and re-loaded.
If I remember correctly, the total bill for materials was just over one thousand dollars, including the top quality linoleum. That would make it about fifteen hundred today.
Sounds like a lot of bang for the buck!
The particular kitchen remodel I looked at entailed major plumbing and electical changes, some significant structural changes - new cabinets, new flooring, new light fixtures, move doors, remove walls, etc. - and for a difficult client, I could plainly tell.
There are a lot of retired folks in Burbank, many of them wealthy. Average home price in my mom's neighborhood is about $400K (she's in No. Hollywood, a block from the Burbank border). But a lot of show businesss industry there too. Right now, even the entertainment industry is suffering setbacks and layoffs. I talked to Lowes there, and 'tho they are far busier than the Lowes here, they said increased insurance costs are causing some of their installers to fold. And they don't have enough work to keep their installers busy.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Sounds like a lot of bang for the buck!
I think it's a concept that could be advertised and sold at a basic low price, with potential add-ons of course.
Basic re-paint and door installation could be done in two days.
With your California contractor's license you'd be able to do business with a door maker directly, for a better price than I paid.
I believe that many doormakers have sample boards for salespeople to use in the home, showing door styles and stain colors. The cabinetmaker I did business with had several sample boards in the office, though I believe he usually made appointments and went to the clients home.
"Very clean and distinctive, country kitchen feeling."
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I'd be happy to post a photo but, for reasons unknown, I haven't been able to attach one successfully for many months. I believe that they time out before completing the up load process.
I'm trying to help my dad work some of the E stuff so I am in the process of trying to get him to scan a business card and Email it to me.
Try a couple of test sends and make sure the size of the picture is small for starters.I also notice my protection software is flashing while I upload the picture.
I think that kinda slowed the upload.
Thanks for the suggestions. I always resize my photos for Emails and posting. Never have a problem uploading them with Emails or other forums, just this one. I've tried here fairly often, every couple of months, but without success.
It's of no real importance to me right now but if I ever really need to post a photo on BT, I'll work through the problem with one of the mods.
I had to go out but back in .
Did I see at one point you are a pilot?
I was gonna resize and let you test send the ity bitty.
Edited 8/12/2009 5:39 pm by ClaysWorld
tried to ad the itty bity with a little hickup
Did I see at one point you are a pilot?
Private Pilot since '76.
I think I recall you talking about flying in to visit some people.
And you own a ?170, 172?
I'd have to look I think I got my ticket in ?74?
I'm out of it for the last ? 15 years.
Maule, currently mothballed. Not my favorite topic at the moment. Thanks for your interest.
Folks there are tighter with a buck than anywhere I know of in SoCal.
Yup. I'll post her email response.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
>>>I think that's always been the case.About Huck's modest pricing or the bugginess of Prospero's software?
heh heh heh
Last job I did for this client I was high bidder out of 5 bids. Turns out only 2 of us were licensed (she checked), and of the two who were licensed, she chose to go with me. Modest is a relative term! Although I strive for modesty, whenever I feel I have achieved it, I start to feel just a little proud of myself for it - Mark Twain.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
>>>Turns out only 2 of us were licensed (she checked), and of the two who were licensed, she chose to go with me. Ok, but if she's keen to hire licensed contractors, why does the place look like that? They must get the urge to hire qualified help every decade or so....I love the outdoor "hot tub", aka "grey water tank".Thanks for the chuckle,Scott.
Edited 8/13/2009 12:02 am by Scott
It was for a different property. Her husband does the work on the house. Until his heart condition no longer allows it.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I bet less than half of it get's hired.
Yup, it's headed that way. Just got a return email, she says her budget is about 60% of my bid.
I'll post the email in a minute.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
These look a little low to me.
I'd add 10% markup to most of these quotes.
This looks like a potential money loser.
I don't like the fact that the hubby doesn't seem to be totally
on board either.
Good points, thanks for sharing. I appreciate being able to bounce stuff off the BT gang!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Ditto on the "low-ness". Am I reading this correctly?....Replace a 6'-0x 3'-0 window, material & labor...$450?
A few other line items look way low to me also, but it could be a regional thing, I guess....Still, the aggravation factor alone would make me on the high side....
Yes, that one REALLY seems low.
I'd rather stay home than lose money on a job.
Ditto on the "low-ness".
Funny, everyone was unanimous on that. H.O. said I was way higher than expected. She wants to talk it over (by email). Not sure exactly which way to go on this, but my gut says RUN AWAY FROM IT! =)View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
This looks like a potential money loser. I don't like the fact that the hubby doesn't seem to be totally on board either.
Good points both. She wrote back, didn't like my price. She didn't come out and say I'm too high, but she let me know its more than she can/wants to pay.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Yeah, it's tough out here right now.
In my area, there is work, but mostly money losers like this one.
Keep on looking brother :)
OK, here's my reply
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Hi Susan. Thanks for the reply. I did spend quite a bit of time putting your estimate together, to try to keep the price as low as I could. In fact, I normally never itemize pricing, but I figured I better expect some stuff to be eliminated, so thats why I did it that way. That's one reason it's just an estimate, not a bid. I figure using those ballpark numbers you can decide what's most important, and then, if & when you're ready to proceed, I'll get exact pricing from my suppliers, and give a firm bid. However, it may be possible to get the price down closer to your budget # by eliminating the stuff you mentioned. And yes, I can rent a roll-off dumpster for the job, in fact, I normally do, but it will add a chunk to the final price - that's why I gave you the option. Also, I thought you guys might have some stuff you wanted to get rid of too, in addition to the strictly construction debris. I'll try to look your email over a little more carefully when I get some time. Sincerely, HuckView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Looks good from here.
i'm sorry Huck, but with all due respect, your comment "I'll try to look further at your email when I get some time" makes it sound to me as if you really dont want the work.
I thought you had lots of time right now...
Maybe you've decided you dont want the work, and if you dont, that's OK,
But if you do want some of it, your reply wouldn't sound like it to me if I was your customer.
makes it sound to me as if you really dont want the work. I thought you had lots of time right now...
Not sure if I do or not, but I have to drive to the Bay Area tomorrow to bid a job, got a couple of bids I'm working on right now, and a small two-three week job in L.A. ready to go at any time. Not a lot, but its got me kinda busy at the moment. I didn't want to make her wait for a reply (like she did me), but I can't spend much time on reworking the numbers at the moment. And I need a little time to think it over. Meanwhile, she's gonna talk it over with the mr., so it sounded to me like she needs a little time, too.
A lot of people think when work is "slow" it means contractors sit at home watching Oprah, but that's not the case. I joke that way sometimes, but maybe I shouldn't. Often I'm as busy or even busier in slow times, just doing other things, is all.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
>>>Also, I thought you guys might have some stuff you wanted to get rid of too, in addition to the strictly construction debris. LOL. After seeing the pics, it conjures up a vision of Junkshound's "Mad Kings of Clutter" thread.I don't share liveonsawdust's sentiments. I think you've got some valid concerns about quality of previous work, the client's ability to pay, and the client's understanding of what it costs for (medium) quality work. I don't think your tone implies that you don't want the work.I think your correspondence is conciliatory. Perhaps some detail is lacking, but that would presumably happen in the "bid" stage. Too bad they can't see through all these stages, which would save money, and just put you to work....Scott.
Good approach, but are those really stand-alone estimates? In other words if she asks for just the kitchen windows and the garage door will you really do it for $400?
I realize they're just preliminary numbers, but when/if you get to the bid stage, you might want to consider how you would handle it if the customer only chooses some of the work.
Good approach, but are those really stand-alone estimates?
She thinks I'm high, wants to cut some stuff out, and revisit the price.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
That project reminds me of tring to polish a t@rd!
They did that on Mythbusters last night. They did indeed polish a t@rd. The carnivore's came out shinier (SP or even a word) than the herbivore's
Did that sign say "ask about $500 free repairs?!??" or have I had too many sierra nevadas?
k
ps hang in there- it'll get better. it always does.
oooh - Sierra Nevada, on tap. The best! BTW, if you ask about $500 free repairs, I'll gladly tell you about all the jobs where I've made that mistake!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I was in Bakersfield Thursday and Friday visiting the inl-laws, and happened to drive by the Git-R-Smogd place on Roberts Lane.
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Remined me of your "Not Fine Homebuilding" project.
Did you get any response from your email?
Nope.
Typical of what I'm getting right now - requests to bid odd projects that take lots of time to bid.
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Edited 8/31/2009 6:54 pm by Huck
Sorry to hear that. I was looking forward to seeing that unfold.
Were those numbers you quoted typical of anywhere in Bakersfield, or was that special Oildale pricing?
My brother in law saw that and was intrigued, so I forwarded him a link to your website.
Don't track this too close to home!!!
Those were just some pared down numbers to try to get something going after a month of no work (and I still haven't been paid from the job I finished a month ago!).
But yeah, pricing here is ridiculously below the true operating cost of a contracting business. Git-r-done, no need to spend lotsa money, we'll do it cheap, fast, and, well, poorly. Seems I'm nearly ALWAYS high bidder. I get probably one out of every 35-50 jobs I bid. I'll have to figure it out some time. Maybe not that bad, but sure feels like it!
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Edited 8/31/2009 6:55 pm by Huck
nuff said.....
OK, here's the email I received this evening. Interested to hear anyone's take on it, before I respond. I almost wrote right back, but then decided to give it a little time to simmer on the backburner before I respond.
This is a nice lady, a prior customer. But its not a job I really relish, with a high p.i.t.a. factor - as you know if you saw the pics. And I bid it low going in, knowing the bad economy right now.
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Hi Huck
If I added all this up correctly, the estimate comes to $10,775.00. Truthfully, I was hoping to get this done for much less, like around $6,000.00. Here are some of my thoughts: RE: the use of the rest of the siding on the West side- When coming home this afternoon, I noticed that the neighboring trees hide most of that part of the house, so now I think we could just get by with repairing the damaged stucco there and painting it. Hopefully just that one side will be less than $500 to do it that way. I am afraid that I am just going to have to cut some of my wish list out, like the doggie door at $150. and the replacement kitchen window at $200. I know that Joe could put both of those in with little effort to save us some money as minor as they are in the long run. I will also speak to him about the window in the bedroom, too. As much as I really wanted the eaves enclosed, I might have to leave them open and just have them painted. It sucks, but..... If I did decide to leave this part of the work in, then I still would choose plywood to match with the wood on the house. We had actually thought of using either inexpensive boards or even natural beadboard if it were less expensive than plywood. Just a thought there for you. I do need someone strong to put the a/c (that is in the kitchen window, by the outdoor tub) in one of my windows for me out in my backyard studio, though. as Joe is not able to get up on a ladder. I didn't know I should have to pay to have the debris removed, if you are talking about construction debris. I thought that automatically came with a job to clean up after it. Anyway, I will have to go over all of this with Joe tomorrow and get his take on it. Don't give up on me regarding this job. I am sure we can still work things out. Send me back some input on this, please. Thanks, SusanView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Get the he** out of there quickly !!!
I would reply, but ONLY to the actual questions. Such as, can you do the stucco repair for $500?, is beadboard less expensive than plywood? (or course not, but you should still answer the question), why did you exclude the cost of debris removal?
I assume you did not include debris removal because there seems to be more than just what you would be generating and it makes sense for the HO to pick up the cost separately in that case. Otherwise, you probably should have included it in your bid prices. Let the HO know that you were trying to create an opportunity for them, but if they're not interested, you can re-visit your bid prices based on including debris removal.
It really doesn't look like this job will go anywhere, but think of it as practice in managing customer expectations. You'll be better prepared next time.
Your prices looked very very reasonable to me... but at least you know what she is willing to spend. Just let her know which aspects of the job you can cover within her limit of 6K.
Sounds like she's dreaming out loud...with the secondary aim of moving you off your numbers. Just a fishing expedition, nothing meant to offend you.
The basic problems, doing business with retired people are: A. Their memories about prices from twenty-thirty years ago seem realistic to them. B. Their fixed income and limited savings make spending freely impossible. I'm not sympathetic to that way of thinking, particularly when it's used as an attempt at manipulation.
Good thing that you gave her a menu of items and prices. That allows you to maintain a professional attitude and, like a waiter taking a dinner order, stay on track no matter how far afield she wanders.
So I'd stick to the menu as written and take the lead. "Item one, yes or no?" And so on until you have a contract. No digressions for nickle and dime stuff, "if you did it this way, how much would that cost?" It's all about being a businessperson right now, maintaining that demeanor while finalizing the deal.
If you feel good about your numbers....
I would ask her to prioritize the separate projects within her $6000.00 budget.
If you can do the stucco repair for $500, then let her know. I would specifically mention that the repair is cosmetic only, and any hidden damages would be additional.
I'm at a loss on how to lower the eave enclosure thing. If it doesn't take too much time, give her a price using plywood and "natural" beadboard (beadboard trees?)... 1/4" ply... luan. Explain why you want to use this product over that one.
Give her a price to install the AC unit. If no unit was there before, don't forget about the support brackets and is there a place to plug it in? If she wants to minimize costs, then make sure that she gets all the parts. Take a quick look at the pile of parts before you begin.
I also exclude debris removal, and specifically mention that. Give her a price on a dumpster or a service like Got Junk. They could put stuff in bags and send it out with the trash to save a buck.
Obviously, the stucco repair, eave project, AC installation and debris removal are important because they are specifically mentioned.
Concentrate on those, and let her pick whatever else she wants done within her budget.
The trick is gonna be finding a way not to waste time on emails back and forth and not writing anything that can be taken harshly.
Don't lower your prices, but if she will schedule enough work at the same time, and if that means increased productivity for you, maybe offer a small discount on the multiple projects as a package deal.
Did you get any response from your email?
OK, it just came. I'll post the gist of it.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
If you don't want the job, don't take it. I'm sure there are plenty of other people who'd be glad to have it.
its yours for the asking, Dan =)View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I don't want it either. Too long of a commute.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I don't want it either. Too long of a commute.
Shucks. Mr. Money sez I can profit by hiring young underpriced bucks like yourself to do the work, and make mine in the markup!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Intersting job, those pictures are screaming .......you might be a redneck if.........
Michiana Shores • IN • 46360
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One I worked on in 2001
Why not just paint the brick a nice color and recommend a landscaper to put in some shrubs?
I wish they would ask for my suggestions!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Well, if you don't want the work, then don't do it.
Doesn't get much more cut and dry than that.
I would find out what standard of workmanship they are looking for. Obvioulsy doing it "right" is going to cost more than slapping something on for good short term looks. Do not judge the customer, let them tell you what they want.
Pick one part of the job and price it out "right" and "cheap"... as "cheap" as you feel comfortable doing. Explain the differences and the hows and whys. Explain warranty differences. Let them decide how much money to spend. Doing this for one part of the job will eliminate a bunch of wasted time if their budget is way too low... or it might impress them and you will get the calls as funds allow for each phase.
Decide early on what needs to be done first... but don't tell the homeowners the plan unless you are paid for your time unless you get the job.
I suspect that the log siding was applied right over the stucco without splice flashings, proper window flashings... sealing the 5 wood surfaces other than the easy front surface and so forth. So, either the homeowner doesn't know how to do it "right", or they do not care. If that level of quality is acceptable to the homeowner, then you have to decide if it is also acceptable to you. You can also (diplomatically) point out the problems and try to sell doing the rest of the job "right", which may include redoing the already completed work.
They may surprise you and give the go ahead for the whole job if you sell it right.
Well, if you don't want the work, then don't do it.
consider me duly chastisedView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Well, I am slow too... been doing stuff I wouldn't normally want to... and stuff that is out of my normal scope of work.
Pays the bills, though... so I am not knocking it.
Boy Huck, all I can say is you'd best hope your client doesn't visit this site. It's the internet after all.
Why? Did I say something bad?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
When I read in the beginning of the client's email "Truthfully, I was hoping to get this done for much less, like around $6,000.00."I knew that it would be time to walk away or stick to my guns.I've seen this from my clients before and almost always indicates chronic haggling.Myself, I would pass.
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I'd rather walk. But since she's been a good client in the past, I feel obligated to put an effort into meeting in the middle - i.e., eliminating some stuff to get the price down.
I have a couple of jobs that are a definite go right now, and I'd rather just concentrate on them and forget about this one! But who knows, even definite go's have been known to disappear under the right (or wrong!) circumstances, so maybe I'll be glad I stuck it out. At any rate, I'm leaving the possibility open, we'll see what happens.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Well, I'm guessing that at the very least the fellow who's now in ill health has an emotional investment in what he's done. It appears as though he's been trying to do a good job at what he thinks is an improvement. Of course, that's a subjective thing.
I'm not saying he didn't do a good job. It wasn't a professional job by my standards, but my standards tend to be higher than the average D-I-Y'er's anyway, and taking over in mid-job is not my cup of tea, but doesn't mean I won't do it, do it well, and for a fair price.
Just saying - its a tough one to bid, not the kind of "fine homebuilding" I love doing, and has some unusual issues attached. Don't mean to put anyone down, sorry if it came across that way. I've worked on some beautiful homes for some downright nasty customers, that's not my cup of tea either!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com