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Discussion Forum

Fine old house but thinking vinyl siding

LisaMcCarney | Posted in General Discussion on August 1, 2004 02:37am

Hello,

I was hoping some of you wise men/women could help with problem I am facing with my house.

The house is a 80 year old Dutch Colonial with clapboard siding, it is situated overlooking the Long Island Sound with breathtaking views. The house itself is sweet, but nothing spectacular, it is all about the beauty of the location. We were quite lucky in our purchase of the house, it has tripled in value over the last 7 years; we could not afford to buy it today. We anticipate it to only appreciate in value.

That’s all great…what is not so great is that it needs painting badly…we have bare wood exposed currently. The exposure from the salt, water and winds when there is a North Easter just thrashes the paint job. We have plaster walls on the interior which suffer from moisture. And there is lead in the paint.

We have rec’d a few quotes on painting – using the new Duration paint – ranging from $14,500 to $20,000, with the guarantee of the paint lasting from 5 to 7 years, maybe 10! Does this seem SANE to you, to keep putting this sort of money into your house, over and over? We have other places to put the money in the house…the kitchen is so old that it only has 2 electrical outlets.

The vinyl siding (a really good type) would cost $23,000 and is guaranteed for 50 years. They can reproduce the look of the clapboard and put it over it, instead of ripping it off. Then maybe, someday, if we really have money to burn, we can take off the vinyl siding.

I never really thought I would be considering vinyl siding, but I think in our situation it might be a practical solution to a difficult location for paint.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Lisa

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Replies

  1. junkhound | Aug 01, 2004 02:50am | #1

    ranging from $14,500 to $20,000, ----  23K for vinyl.

    First, welcome.

    OK, the above quote and your comments about being there a long time and not being able to buy the house today says you are young and not that rich; so, have you seriously considered DIY.

    For a couple hundred you can buy a used prof. quality spray setup, some other good tools, pressure washer, etc, rent scaffolding if needed, etc.  The in 10 or more years you will be all set for the next paint job, till you are into your 70's, then you can get your kids or grandkids to paint it. You will always have the tools if you start now.

    Personal opinion is to forget vinyl, 50 year gauantee means squat, esp if a prorated 50 yrs.

    Good luck.

  2. DANL | Aug 01, 2004 03:05am | #2

    You'll find that this topic is like opening the proverbial can of worms; some people love vinyl, others hate it and the two sides will take no prisoners! That said, I think, possibly, that vinyl, correctly installed (and I stress correctly installed, and the problem is most homeowners don't know what that is, so get taken advantage of) might be okay. The problem is that many installers either don't know how to install correctly, or figure if they take shortcuts, who will know, everything is covered up. The homeowner doesn't find out that things are botched until years down the road, water leaks into the house, or carpenter ants are taking over, and then discovers that the vinyl allowed water into the structure and things are rotting.

    This is a sore point with me right at the moment because I just spent the better part of a week ripping apart a wall around a window where the vinyl installers did a lot of things wrong--no flashing, lots of J-channel to hold water, lots of caulk in the wrong places to keep any water that got in from getting back out, etc. Another thing the installers like to do is just hack off anything that gets in their way, so later, if you decide to remove the vinyl and go back to clapboards, all the endearing little architectural details have been pared away.

    This is getting too long, but--I'd be a little careful with a power washer if you go the repainting route. They can force water deep into the structure, almost injecting it into boards, and it takes a long time to dry. Then if it's not dry, your paint job won't last. In my opinion, unless lead paint is peeling or powdering, or if you have a baby, I would just paint over it (especially on the inside). I'm sure you'll get some opinions that differ from mine. I'm trying to give you a aort of balanced view. Good luck!

  3. OrchidGuy | Aug 01, 2004 03:10am | #3

    Hi Lisa,

     I'm with Junkhound on vinyl siding. That 50 year gaurantee is nothing more than a sales gimmick! With vinyl you'll eventually wind up having to reside the building. That is a gaurantee! Strip the claps and clean them with TSP, let them dry, then prime and paint! You could look into using cement board siding sometime in the future. I heard they hold paint alot better. P.S. live in Westchester, so I know about them Nor'Easters.

    Those daring young men in their flying machines!

    1. reganva | Aug 01, 2004 04:49am | #4

      Vinyl is final.  Sure anything not done correctly has better odds of failing prematurely.  But as far as I'm concerned, the stuff lasts, doesn't fade and requires little maintenance.  Painting a house is a huge undertaking, especially for a novice.  And then you have to do it again every x years.  If you side the house in vinyl and wrap the windows and doors, all you'll have to do is hose it off every once in a while.  It's up to you.

      Most of the people here I think are true craftsmen and believe in doing quality work, and they will argue that vinyl looks cheap.  That's a matter of personal opinion.  Look around at old houses in your area.  Some are sure to have vinyl.  If you think it looks cheesy, don't do it.  If you think, like I do, that from the curb, 99% of the people that look at your house will see a clean, well maintained house, then it's worth considering. 

      Will it last 50 years?  Who knows.  But I bet it will last at least 5 times longer than a paint job. 

      I know my opinion is a minority here on this subject, so I'm prepared for the backlash.

      1. OrchidGuy | Aug 02, 2004 01:47am | #26

        Hi rich,

         I'm a big believer in opinons, and everyone has the right to speak their mind! You have yours and I have mine, that's what makes us individual human beings. I tend to be a traditionalist about certain things, perhaps you are also about certain things. I have seen other people who have vinyl and have problems with it. I have been told vinyl gets brittle when it gets cold in the winter. Vinyl also becomes unstabile and melts when it gets hot! I have seen vinyl that's cracked and broken from the kids baseball, soccerball or whatever hitting it. I've also seen it melt when a neighboring house caught fire. I did read in an earlier issue of FHB that vinyl, if installed properly is a good choice of siding. I won't argue with you on that point! Any exterior siding option is good, but only if done properly. The thing that worries me about vinyl are the 2 points I mentioned above. One must also consider the fact of historic district commissions. They always want the authentic type of siding, so for some people vinyl is a non- issue as far as that's concerned. As I said earlier opinions are welcomed, you have no arguement from me!:-)

        Those daring young men in their flying machines!

        1. reganva | Aug 02, 2004 02:51am | #27

          Well, I live in Chicago.  Temp range from 100 in summer to minus whatever in winter.  There's plenty of vinyl sided houses around here, including my addition, and I've never seen any crack or melt due to the weather.  I will say that I know from trying to cut the stuff in 40 degree weather that it does get brittle in the cold.  I suppose in the winter if a piece got hit just right with something it could break, but that's why I have a few extra pieces in the garage.  It's very easy to replace. 

          As far as a house fire, I think melting vinyl instead of burning planks would add less fuel to the fire.

          As far as historic districts, or just fitting into the neighborhood, I don't think I'd put vinyl on a house where the whole neighborhood consisted of say, Victorian painted ladies that had all been restored.  It would stick out like a sore thumb.  A traditionalist would definetlely not like vinyl on their house.  I guess I really like it because of the low maintenance aspect.  The thought of painting a whole house and then doing it 5 or 10 years later depresses me.

          Can we agree that, depending on the circumstances, vinyl can be a good choice or a bad choice?

          I have seen this arguement come up before in the last couple of years here, and it seems that now some people are more receptive to the idea than in the past.

          1. junkhound | Aug 02, 2004 03:07am | #28

            "melting vinyl instead of burning planks"

            Are you implying that vinyl does NOT burn?????!! That is one I'd not bet money on.

          2. reganva | Aug 02, 2004 04:13am | #29

             f4phanatic said that he saw vinyl melt when a neighborhood house caught on fire, so I just gave the opinion that that would be better than a bunch of burning planks.   I honestly have no idea how it acts in a fire, except that I'm told it puts off some nasty fumes.

          3. OrchidGuy | Aug 02, 2004 04:34am | #31

            Hi Junkhound,

             The vinyl on this house just turned to goo, luckily that's all it did. I'm sure if the setback between the 2 buildings was closer it would have burned. I guess I forgot to mention  the flammabilty of vinyl, considering they do use petroleum products as a base for the stuff. Given the chance it would make one heck of a fire!

            Those daring young men in their flying machines!

          4. AJinNZ | Aug 02, 2004 05:38am | #33

            So far as I know, vinyl is not a common product here.

            Much to my disgust plastered polystyrene is. Hardies is becoming more and more popular in the wake of the "leaky homes" fiasco.

            First house I saw done in Hardies I thought it was wood. Looks nice and if painted and maintained.......will last a long time.

            An observation I make about wood siding is usually related to older houses. Often they have been neglected for decades, needed a decent repaint for decades and are still 95% sound and dont leak.

            The newer materials/products that keep coming out never seem to last anywhere near as long. Back in the old days people used wood, they kept using it cos it worked. If it didnt work, then they would have used something else.

            I did a house once in tempered masonite. 20 years earlier the same stuff was a filthy word after numerous failures.

            I was told that THIS stuff however wouldnt shrink, rot, warp, twist, swell, etc etc.

            I had my doubts. It was installed meticulously as per manufacturers specs. It was painted white. I went back a couple months later for a look. Every nail head was surrounded by a dark ring where the stuff had swelled. Well whaddya know........

            There is a big drive in the my nearest city to eliminate open fires and all woodburning stoves that dont comply with emission standards. Lots of people are ripping out the fireplaces and older burners and going to gas and electric. I can see the day when people looking to buy a house will say "Look, its got a fireplace......!"

            For all the dramas people make about wanting maintenance free houses, not wanting to cart firewood or god forbid, having to sum up the energy to strike a match, the older wood siding houses in good condition are and always have been very good sellers. There are always a decent number of people prepared to pay for it.

            I say keep the wood and paint it. It has worked so far without failure. 

            Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.

            DW

          5. DanH | Aug 02, 2004 04:31pm | #40

            <quote>

            I did a house once in tempered masonite. 20 years earlier the same stuff was a filthy word after numerous failures.

            I was told that THIS stuff however wouldnt shrink, rot, warp, twist, swell, etc etc.

            I had my doubts. It was installed meticulously as per manufacturers specs. It was painted white. I went back a couple months later for a look. Every nail head was surrounded by a dark ring where the stuff had swelled. Well whaddya know........

            </quote>

            That's odd. The tempered Masonite I installed ten years ago shows absolutely NO signs of deterioration. Of course, ours was installed to spec, hand nailed so the nails weren't sunk.

          6. AJinNZ | Aug 03, 2004 04:23am | #45

            This stuff was a very dark brown and hard. Looked so much like the sheets of tempered masonite I am familiar with I called it that. I could be mistaken however.

            It does burn well though. I was taking the offcuts home. Chuck some on then had to move back as the heat was so fierce.

            I had the guys installing the stuff as per Hardies. All hand nailed with the nail heads in tight, but not flush with the surface.

            The foreman saw this and got out the manufacturers specs sheet where it said to belt the nail heads in till flush. I had my doubts, but did as was asked and got a guy to go around and give each one a final hit. They all swelled.

            I dread to think what it looks like now. 

            Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.

            DW

          7. junkhound | Aug 02, 2004 03:39pm | #39

            Did some aircraft flammability studies in the '60s and had not researched vinyl siding flammability. Here is the ASTM  spec, with comments per some tests (in blue) I did list night out of curiousity.  The tests I did were on a piece of vinyl gutter (accessory) as no piece of siding on hand.  Stapled a type K thermocouple to the vinyl to get my own numbers. My meter is Centigrade, conversions in (F)  The stuff I tried was made in the UK.(purchased in Seattle area) - note: for a house under fir trees with the acid generating needles, vinyl gutter is the longest lasting I've seen in over 40 years of real time 'testing' and observation, except the standard joints always leak, etc - another subjectv from siding though ...... . Small type stuff no test

            vinyl siding and accessories that comply with requirements of ASTM D 3679, Class 2 as follows:

                     

            1.

            Cell classification: 1334.

                     

            2.

            Tensile strength: 7,344 psi.

                     

            3.

            Modulus of elasticity: 455,750-psi average.

                     

            4.

            Izod impact, standard 1/8-inch bar: 1.5 ft.lbs/in average.

                     

            5.

            Deflection temperature: 168 degrees F.  Droopy at 65C (149F).

                     

            6.

            Flash ignition temperature: 752 degrees F. Smoked slightly and blackened at 280 C or so (356F), more flames and copious acrid black smoke at 380C (716F), at 540C (1004F) pieces of glowing 'charcoal' fell in pieces from the sample.

                     

            7.

            Self-ignition temperature: 842 degrees F. see #6

                     

            8.

            Maximum smoke density: 86 percent. Once the thermocouple hit 380 C, it looked worse that burning a tire (yeah, years ago started slash fires inthe rain with a few old tires, cant do that now of course.  An estimate that a similar weight to a tire of the vinyl would make one hellaciouos smoke plume, VERY dense black smoke.  Got one breath of the stuff, very sulphourous type acridity.

                     

            9.

            Smoke density rating: 52.4 percent average. see #8

                     

            10.

            Flammability, horizontal:

                     

            a.

            Burn distance: Less than 10 mm. Even with a propane torch applied to the sample, the flame would go out before about 1/4" burn propogated.

                     

            b.

            Burn time: Less than 5 seconds. Less than 3 seconds on what I tried -time after removing torch flame until open flame stopped - surprised me it was that good, must have some good added flame retardents.

                     

            11.

            Flammability, vertical: Non-burning. Any position seemed about the same as #10.

                     

            12.

            Wind load resistance: 58.2 ft-lbs./sq. ft.

          8. OrchidGuy | Aug 04, 2004 01:41am | #46

            Hi Junkhound,

             The siding I saw melting was probably 8-10 ft. from the building on fire. The fire building was covered in aluminum siding, so the radient heat had to be intense. The vinyl started sagging, becoming disformed, then started turning brown, sort of like the browning on a toasted marshmellow. Eventually it didn't look like siding! A friend pn the local fire department said aluminum siding traps heat in the building. Interior temps are alot higher. I imagine what a fire in a vinyl sided building would do to the siding.

            Those daring young men in their flying machines!

          9. DanH | Aug 04, 2004 02:14am | #48

            I've seen cases where a charcoal grill too close to the house has melted vinyl in about a 4x4 foot area, and I've heard of folks screwing up an entire side of the house with a trash fire too close.

          10. OrchidGuy | Aug 06, 2004 02:37am | #50

            Hi Dan,

             I saw an entire wall melt, so you got to be careful with that stuff. Speaking of fire, I gotta go the house across the street from me is going up in flames! See you.

            Those daring young men in their flying machines!

          11. OrchidGuy | Aug 02, 2004 04:26am | #30

            Hi rich,

             If it's properly installed I have to say no problem. I have seen installers remove trim from around windows and doors along with other architectural details, then butt the siding up to the vinyl  J moulding they install. If the wide casings I've seen around around my part of New York were kept, I would like that look alot better. If the choice of the homeowner is vinyl, I'm not going to argue with them. It should be done properly.

            Those daring young men in their flying machines!

          12. reganva | Aug 02, 2004 05:33am | #32

            Yea, you're right about that.  I had an 1884 two family house a few years back that was covered in asphalt siding.  The front facade of the house was flat as a pancake.  Nothing around the windows or under the eves.  There was one window inside the enclosed back porch that had never been touched and the origonal siding was on the inside wall of the porch also, because the porch was an add on.  The window had real nice detail around it.  If that was on the back of the house, the front was probably more interesting.  Didn't feel bad about covering that with vinyl because the damage was allready done.  But I don't know if I'd buy an old wood house that had a lot of architectural details in need of repair.  I couldn't stand to remove them, but the thought of all that work to bring them back to life would overwhelm me.   

          13. OrchidGuy | Aug 02, 2004 06:41am | #34

            In the city where I live there are lot of older homes, some date back to the 1700's, the oldest one is from the 1600's when the Dutch first settled here. Some of the Victorians are being brought and restored to their original state. Alot of them are covered in aluminum siding. Contractors are real busy ripping it off!

            Those daring young men in their flying machines!

            Edited 8/1/2004 11:42 pm ET by f4phanatic

          14. DANL | Aug 02, 2004 09:16pm | #43

            Hey, a reasonable man. I'll agree to that--that, depending on circumstances, vinyl can be a good choice or a bad choice. I think I opened with that idea about 26 posts ago! ;-)

    2. unTreatedwood | Aug 02, 2004 07:36pm | #42

      I enjoyed reading your posts on this topic.  I live in Bergen county and have a house almost exactly like the one Lisa describes.  Two owners previous to me put on the vinyl siding and while it is not what I would have done, it seems to have withstood the hurricane in '99, the snow storms of 02 and 03 and not been any worse for the wear.  I have to emphasize, I don't like the look, but I am not inclined at this point to fix something that isn't broken yet.  Yet I doubt I would put it on if I had the choice.

      1. OrchidGuy | Aug 04, 2004 01:48am | #47

        Hi bigbob,

         I'm a pilot and fly out of Teterboro, I've never gotten off of Route 46. I've seen alot of the county from 2,000 feet, but it's pretty hard to make out details from that far up! As for the vinyl on your place, if it's holding up, I guess just hang on to it. Once your budget and mind allow you to,you could rip it off and redo the exterior!

        Those daring young men in their flying machines!

  4. User avater
    JeffBuck | Aug 01, 2004 05:09am | #5

    one ... a quality vinyl with a quality install is just fine. Don't let any "not on my house" idgits sway you once you research and make up your mind.

    Second ... a quailty whole house exterior paint job is NOT a DIY project. It's not even a carpenter/remodeler project. It is a professional painter project. Painting is a bit more than a little scraping then cutting in and spraying ... especially with your site conditions.

    Third ... I'd get some bids on hardi plank siding. It's a cement based product that holds paint very well .. weather very well ... and is just a very good product. This would most likely require stripping the original siding ... so the costs will go up .. and ... you won't have the original wood underneath.

    So ... if you want a nice new exterior ... try hardi ...

    if you want a nice new "temp exterior" ... look vinyl.

    if you want a nice traditional exterior ... professional paint job.

    Jeff

    Buck Construction, llc   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

  5. User avater
    RichColumbus | Aug 01, 2004 05:27am | #6

    I would have been a proponent of painting a few years back.  However, given the proper circumstances, I have been converted to vinyl.

    A good installation job is obviously essential.  That goes with anything that you do.

    I would have one recommendation, however.  Consider installing a product that is different than the standard "double 4" if you are so inclined. 

    Mastic has a product called "Discovery" that is designed to look like cedar shingles (and actually does VERY much resemble the real thing).  It is super thick... and is very hard to install... however I did a house with this stuff and it is absolutely incredible!  It also makes for a great "accent" siding if your architecture is conducive.

    You say that you may consider talking it off at a later date.  Don't plan on it... as the installation will most likely preclude this.  Vinyl doesn't always go on in a way that would allow it to be removed and recover what is underneath.

    Another consideration is the insulation and weatherproofing of your home.  It is not a bad idea to consider putting up a styrofoam backer for the siding.  Not only does this provide for a cleaner installation.. it does provide a small amount of insulation factor.  (Note... this is not the same as "insulated vinyl"... the stuff that has styrofoam insulation built into the product.  This type of product I DO NOT recommend.  Cost of installation is astronomical, and the cost/benefit ratio is not that high.  Sounds great... but in practice, it is not worth the extra cost)

    But most importantly... with the exposure to the elements... PLEASE consider a house-wrap under the siding.  Cuts wind entry... is good as a moisture barrier... and is overall, just a good idea.  BE SURE that your contractor seals all of the edges of the house-wrap.  I have seen many a house wrapped and the edges not be sealed (drives me nuts).  Without sealing the edges, the effectiveness of the wrap is cut in half or better.

    As has been mentioned before, it is ESSENTIAL that your contractor flash and caulk properly... especially in the climate that you live in. 

    Hope this helps.  Good luck,and good contracting in whatever you choose.



    Edited 7/31/2004 10:30 pm ET by Rich from Columbus



    Edited 7/31/2004 10:32 pm ET by Rich from Columbus

  6. wflather | Aug 01, 2004 05:46am | #7

    Lisa,

    There are ways to hide the dead give-away Here-Be-Vinyl-J-channel such as creating a rabbet behind trim. Careful detailing will reduce the cheap look and is a good compromise. You can stay with wood trim and only have a small amount of wood to maintain. While it won't fool someone with a knowledgable eye, it is a workable compromise.

  7. MojoMan | Aug 01, 2004 05:49am | #8

    FHB No. 149 has an article on how to do a quality vinyl siding job. I think much of the bad rap vinyl gets is due to the fact that most of it is installed so badly. If you can find a contractor you can trust, vinyl might be just fine. Sure, the plastic may last 50 years, but what about the house behind it if the siding job allows water to get inside? Vinyl is just another material. In the hands of a skilled, thoughtful, caring contractor, it just might serve your particular needs well.

    Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

    1. LisaWL | Aug 01, 2004 06:18am | #9

      For vinyl supporters:

      You are cordially invited to come over to my house to help me rip the 20 year old vinyl off my house.  It is faded and has sustained damage that can not be repaired (What do you do with holes in your vinyl?  It's impossible to match that specific shade of fade).  It also has calcified mineral deposits on it that have become a permanent feature.

      You can make the soffits your specialty, as I am weary of shaking rat nesting materials off of my head.  Bring tools and redwood: it will take us a while to repair all of the rot that has occured under the vinyl.  And also lots of wood putty to fill the million nail holes.

      This was an expensive job at the time ($13,000 for a 2000 sq, ft., one story house 20 years ago), so this is not the result of a cheap homeowner.  We inherited the vinyl contract with the house...has a nice 50 year guarantee.  Unfortunately, the company is out of business.

      Except for all that, vinyl siding is just fine.

      "A completed home is a listed home."

      1. User avater
        RichColumbus | Aug 01, 2004 07:16am | #11

        Vinyl technology has come a LONG way in 20 yrs.

        Sorry about your situation and I empathize... but to condemn todays materials in comparison to that of 20 yrs ago... well, that's like comparing an F117 Nighthawk Stealth Fighter to a P-51 Mustang.  The Mustang was state of the art in it's day; but would hardly compare to a Nighthawk.

        I have seen huge strides in vinyl technology in just the last 6 yrs.  And it will continue to get better.  50 yrs?  Probably not.  But one of the very first jobs I did when I became a contractor was a siding replacement (6 yrs ago).  It still looks just as good as the day I put it on (with the owner spraying the house down twice a year).

        And, BTW, if I were not better than 3000 miles away, I would be happy to give ya a hand with that siding and soffits.

  8. DanH | Aug 01, 2004 06:45am | #10

    You didn't say how big this house is. I repainted my 2000 sq ft home (with about 2000 sq ft of outside wall) in about 4 weekends plus two days of vacation, with my two sons helping for the last few days. Rented scaffolding to reach the second floor. (I'll never try painting from a extension ladder again!)

    This didn't involve any significant scraping, as the siding was only 10 years old. Did have to scrape/prime a few spots on the wood windows, though.

    In your case, full scraping would probably double or triple the effort.

    I think if I were in your shoes I'd consider doing what I did to our house ten years ago -- rip off the old siding and replace it. We used tempered Masonite, but probably fiber-cement is the way to go now. It should last 100 years with painting every 10 years or so. While the siding is off you can tend to various structural problems, seal things, etc. (In your case installing housewrap, then lath, to provide drainage and air space behind the siding would probably be worth considering.)

    If the house is a reasonable size, and if isn't hanging over a cliff or anything, this is a reasonable DIY project (though you may not get it completely done this year).

    Keep in mind that no vinyl will remain looking nice for 50 years. In 10-15 years it will be faded and etched and in need of painting. And as has been said, vinyl installers often cause an enormous amount of damage, either in the process of installing, or due to moisture problems they create.

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Aug 01, 2004 07:17am | #12

      And as has been said, vinyl installers often cause an enormous amount of damage, either in the process of installing, or due to moisture problems they create.

      Dan,

      That's the biggest load of BS floating thru the remodeling world.

      What moisture problems? I'm tired or hearing people talk outta their a$$ with claims of "leaks like a sieve" ... or "traps moisture and suffocates a house" ...

      at least let me know which moisture problems U claim are inherent with well installed vinyl siding. But try to pick one .. you can't have both sides of the fence ...

      even though both sides of that fence are 100% wrong.

      btw ... what do you do for a living?

      Jeff

      Buck Construction, llc   Pittsburgh,PA

           Artistry in Carpentry                

      1. raybrowne | Aug 01, 2004 10:32am | #13

        I'm a big fan of seaside carpentry in the Northeast and I strongly discourage you from going with the vinyl siding, it will be a major expense and nuisance to remove it once it's there and I'd be suprised if you were happy with the look. Alot of the nice architectural details on these homes get lost and irretrievably maimed by siding installers; I'd call around to several different painters and see what the costs are on a paint job. I woudn't look beyond DIY if it meant saving the house from vinyl either.

        -Ray

      2. DanH | Aug 01, 2004 03:23pm | #14

        There's nothing wrong with vinyl siding per se. But especially when it's installed over existing siding there are a host of mistakes that can be made that will result in water damage. This situation is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of siding outfits are not regular construction outfits and so the installers have little or no comprehension of basic building principles (the first of which is "water runs downhill").

        1. DANL | Aug 01, 2004 04:15pm | #16

          Amen to them not knowing that water runs downhill. Like my old boss said, "Water runs downhill; everything you do must lead it out and over the thing below it." And then, you must alway, always, allow water to get out once it has gotten in, even though it shouldn't get in. The worst thing is to caulk horizontal seems where any water that got in would normally fall out.

      3. DANL | Aug 01, 2004 04:11pm | #15

        Although your post was directed to DanH and not me, I just got through ripping out totally rotted, wet, ant infested wood from a vinyl siding job. I must admit that most, if not all of the problem was because of poor installation technique. But, although I once was a "hippie-type" I haven't had a flashback in years ;-) and cannot believe I was hallucinating all the damage!

  9. DANL | Aug 01, 2004 04:22pm | #17

    Did I speak the truth earlier?! (about raising controvery) ;-) Someone posted that it's a good idea to put foam insulation under the vinyl. Not to step on toes, but in my admitedly limited view, this would not be a good idea in a climate where it gets cold outside, as any moisture (water vapor) that gets through the walls, coming from the inside in winter, will be trapped by the foam which acts as a vapor barrier. This can also lead to rot. A house wrap might be good though.

    One more thing--as far as removing the vinyl later, there will be umpteen million nail holes to fill where the siding nails (which are fairly big diameter) were pulled.

    1. Piffin | Aug 01, 2004 05:04pm | #19

      There is good vinyl and bad.

      There are good installers and bad.

      There are good painters and bad.

      I've seen paint jobs last between three years and twelve years, the life dependent on the quality of both the paint and the painter.

      I don't object to vinyl in many situations, but I object to poor installation in all situations. A bad install can end up costing you money in the long run. Vinyl itsdelf does not cause rot, but bad installers cause water to be scooped in under the product to the poiont where all the fasteners have poked holes in the existing, leading some of said water into the wall cavity. I think Jeff is right to defend vinyl as a product, but wrong to deny that it ever leads to early decay.

      In your case, I would base my decision on looking at other homes in the neighborhod to see if vinyl has been accepted for historical homes there. because, if it is not, you will have hurt your valuation and resale value, depending on how potential buyers and appraisers feel about it. The upper scale homes, such as yours, here would be devalued by adding vinyl.

      So, while measuring the cost/value/convenience situation, include two or three more potential variables - Can you live with the thought of losing some of the finer architectural details? - How much might it devalue the home in the long run? - and how much more will it cost to get a good instalation?

      maybe this price you have is from great installers already, but you should self-educate a bit by reading the FHB issue that copntained the article on proper instal techniques, and then talk to the contractors again. a poor install of vinyl will cost more in the long run that a few poor paint jobs. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. edwardh1 | Aug 01, 2004 11:20pm | #24

        Hardie plank!!!!!!!

        Looks great, does not warp peel paint chip flex ooze sap rot burn etc etc like wood.

        wood is a 4 letter word

        work on wood is 8 letters

        1. Piffin | Aug 02, 2004 01:37am | #25

          Psssst...

          Work on wood has ten letters!

          ;) 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      2. User avater
        myriad | Aug 04, 2004 04:58am | #49

        I third the suggestion to use Hardie Plank. When properly installed, it will protect your house against any inclement weather condition.  It's much better (though costlier) than vinyl any day IMHO.

        Rick

    2. User avater
      RichColumbus | Aug 01, 2004 05:46pm | #20

      Foam traps moisture? 

      So does siding (wood OR vinyl OR hardy).  So does a nail head.  So does window trim. So does paint. So does any other number of things that you do to a house.

      The key is to ventilate properly.  That is why there are weep-holes in the bottom of the siding.  That is why you install attic vents.  That is why you install soffit vents.  That is why you don't tape foam joints (note: taping foam joints is different from taping tyvek joints).  That is why you don't caulk the lowest horizontal on window trim. That is why you don't caulk the bottom side of drip-cap.

      Foam traps moisture?  Shoot... 100,000+ archys, 10,000+ engineers, and a million or so contractors must all be wrong!

      Sorry to be contentious, here.  The original poster should be concerned about water/moisture.... and it is good to point that out. But come on... this is a bit much, don't ya think? 

      That is why a good installation job is so key.  I can train a seven year-old to hang vinyl... it's not that hard.  But there is a difference between hanging vinyl and installing vinyl.  To properly install vinyl... you must address these issues.  And they are not that hard to address.

      For the original poster... here is a potential tip for you.  Ask your installer what the steps are to their installation process.  If they don't say something about ventilation/moisture abatement... don't hire them.  They are just hanging siding.

      Edited 8/1/2004 10:48 am ET by Rich from Columbus

      Edited 8/1/2004 10:50 am ET by Rich from Columbus

      1. DANL | Aug 01, 2004 08:31pm | #23

        My only reply to you is that 10,000 fies eat s###; that doesn't mean I want to do it.

  10. WayneL5 | Aug 01, 2004 04:49pm | #18

    I second the recommendation to investigate Hardie siding.  It's a premium product that will last longer than anything on the outside of your house.

    It is not the least expensive of your options, though.  You'll have to remove the existing siding, take advantage of the opportunity to install housewrap, and after the siding is installed it will need priming and painting.  But, the paint job will last 15-20 years, and it won't need scraping then.  It won't need any sanding and scraping now, either, which would reduce the painting cost now, too.  Installed with the correct nails, it's great for coastal climates.  It has much greater wind and impact resistance than vinyl.

    Vinyl, properly installed, is not so bad.  Most ugly vinyl jobs are due to poor detailing of trim, like having no trim around the windows which gives bad vinyl jobs a mobile home look.  And ugly soffits.  You can install vinyl siding with traditional soffits so you don't have that ugly perforated stuff.

    If you want to really blow your budget, you can install new synthetic trim when you reside, which will reduce your maintenance greatly.  Paint holds much better to it than to wood trim, so a paint job will last very much longer and be easier to redo when the time comes.

    http://www.jameshardie.com is the website of James Hardie



    Edited 8/1/2004 10:01 am ET by WAYNEL5

  11. maverick | Aug 01, 2004 06:17pm | #21

    Owning a house on the water you know what wind, water and salt can do. I believe vinyl siding would compound the problem.

    Vinyl does little to keep wind blown rain from getting behind itself. It does'nt matter how good the installer is, you will be relying on foam board insulation or tarpaper or both to keep the underlying structure dry. Those things don't have a fifty year warrantee.

  12. gregb | Aug 01, 2004 08:24pm | #22

    Lisa, another advantage to using one of the fiber cement products out there (there are several, such as Cem-Plank, Weatherboards, etc.) is that you can get the stuff pre-stained. Where I'm at in Illinois, we've been using pre-stained Hardiplank for 5 years or so with excellent results. Our supplier has the siding shipped to a pre-stain facility where 2 coats of Cabot solid body stain gets applied. We end up getting a 15 year warranty on the finish, &  so far the jobs still all look good years later.

    When the homeowners do need to refinish the siding, it should be a simple matter of applying another coat or two of stain, which seems to go on easier than paint. Also, the prep work required before restaining should be less than that needed for painting, since there won't be any major peeling or flaking the way there is with paint.

    Lastly, on a number of the residing projects we've done, the homeowners have decided to take advantage of the fact all the old siding was being stipped off, & have had us blow cellulose insulation into the walls before installing housewrap. Since most of the houses we work on are at least 60 years old, almost none have any wall insulation. By residing with fiber cement, & insulating the exterior walls, the homeowners are getting about as "maintenance free" an exterior as they can for at least 10-15 years, making the house look a lot better & lowering their heating bills to boot.

  13. Quickstep | Aug 02, 2004 07:09am | #35

    It looks like you have lots of opinions here, but I couldn't resist the urge to jump in. I'd imagine that a really good vinyl installation would last a long time, but 50 yrs might be a stretch. But the real decision might be better determined by what YOU really want.  

    We built a house some years back and used high quality vinyl rather than the cedar shingles we really wanted due to budget constraints. We used Wolverine restoration siding which has a matte finish and no fake wood grain which (I think) makes it look better. It looked very good, but I always knew it was vinyl.  On long runs, the places where pieces have to overlap stood out like a sore thumb to me. In other places, where the siding went around an odd shaped detail, the fit and finish wasn't just quite right. As several have mentioned here, a good installation job is a must. A good installation will include all the extras (which drives up cost) and an installation that's really tops. Contractors that do really good work are finally getting their due; they're very busy and charge the top dollar they deserve. Be careful when you get bids to ensure that you're really comparing apples to apples.

    Oh yeah.... We just finished a major remodel and took off aluminum siding and replaced it with cedar shingles.

    Can you touch up the bare spots and buy yourselves some time to think about it? It might not look great, but you could at least prevent damage to the bare wood and get the time to avoid a decision (either way) that you might regret.  

  14. RJT | Aug 02, 2004 07:09am | #36

    that danno guy knows what he's talking about.

    other than that, just know that vinyl or paint aren't your only options.

    there are other types of siding material that look great and are more durable than vinyl.

    there are many issues with vinyl other than durability.

    1. UncleDunc | Aug 02, 2004 07:25am | #37

      Does Armor-All prevent or delay UV embrittlement in vinyl?

      1. DanH | Aug 02, 2004 04:34pm | #41

        > Does Armor-All prevent or delay UV embrittlement in vinyl?

        No.

      2. DANL | Aug 02, 2004 09:21pm | #44

        I'm sure it does--but be sort of a PITA to apply all over your house--I wonder how often you'd have to reapply it. :-)

  15. BIRDDOG | Aug 02, 2004 02:53pm | #38

    So you got an 80 yr old Dutch Col  I say paint it I't will have more value if you want to sell it later And besides no siding  will look as good as the old clapboards  yes it may seem like more work in 7 to 10 yrs but think of the beauty of an old house sure siding is low maints but it traps moisture  the company won't tell you that  and when they wrap it with the siding they will cover up a lot of details  trust me I work on old houses and ripped the stuff off  I have a 85 yr old foursquare  with ugly soffit and fasia I'm tearing it off and going with new wood  and dentil moulding like it was years ago yes more work but it will look much better    oh  great site  and thanks for all the help you folks have been kind

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