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I’m located in NE GA after moving here from West Palm Beach almost three years ago. Have found it to be an entirely different kind of work environment. Very laid back and patient. Work has been kinda hard to obtain as the good old boy system reigns here. If you are new and are not related to anyone or well known it is hard to break into the business. I’ve been doing fairly well for the last 10 months and it seems as though the work is going to really start pouring in. Word eventually gets around. Time to start raising prices. Just not sure what the competition is charging as they are FEW and far between here and was wondering what prices were across the country and how different the work and demographics were. Yes I’m fishing for pricing but I’m willing to trade mine for yours. Anybody interested?
Jim Russell
Replies
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$1 per foot for labor...average all feet and a $1 per cut a the chop box.
Tell us yours,
near the stream,
aj
*AJ, Mine is a little more work involved to figure the costs. LF PRICING- for base (ie $0.69 PIECE- for windows, doors(ie. $19.86, 6'8" hollow core, prehung paint grade), attic stairs, steps and risers, hardwares PER SQ FT- on flooring ( $1.25 , hardwood pre-finish installed), wall covers, ceiling work (Usu tongue n groove) Percentage increases for difficult jobs, high work, stain grade vs paint, and % decreases for repeat FREQUENT GC's. Costs are figured before the job starts and is documented as to scope. Changes are subject to increased costs and draws are expected on any job lasting more than 1 week. JIM
*Curious.How did you come up with an odd-ball price like $19.86 to hang a H/C door? Are you just copying the estimate book prices?
*Ralph, Gotta start somewhere. I used numbers from my Palm Beach books, several cost estimate books, as well as the difference from how the pricing for certain things is different here than in other parts of the country. Got the numbers then adjusted them for my needs. Did it by using percentages. Add everything up then usually round it off.Guys up here usually ballpark their numbers and end up losing because they can't or won't take the time to do any math. Long story short.....its just a bunch of numbers. $20..... rounded off..... builders dont care as long as they can live with the bottom line and the numbers dont change much at the end. Just seeing whose payin attention.JIM
*I'm a little different on trim- One, are you listenning?Almost all my trim is custom architectural millwork that I produce on my Williams and Hussey molder. I charge for the cutters as part of a setup charge. Then I charge $1.00 per inch/foot, L&M, milled and installed, plus 15% for waste. Pine or poplar.So if I'm making a 4" casing, the charge is $4.00/lineal foot and I make 15% more than what the plans take off is. Minimum 200 feet for setupOak or maple is more. Stain grade is more. Crown is higher for installation, according to height of cieling.
*Piffin,Do you make your own arched window moulding?If so, is it a big deal, I mean is there a lot in set-up and what about multiple pieces.One more question, can you mill 4" arches with backband (mdf)Thanks,Sean
*Yes. I glue up strips clamped in a form to make the blank, then run through W&H.What is backband? I dislike MDF. Especially on the W&H because it dulls blaaades so easy. For an MDF I would rather use router and carbide bits.
*Duh, it just hit me - glue segments together with fingerjoint or biscuits and glue backing of mdf for integrity - right? This would give a millable surface of wood with less trouble than my method of strips on form. maybe faster too.
*you can come work for me if you want to charge $20 to hang a door. should be no less than $65 anywhere in the country. and that doesn't include the lockset installation and only if the door is waiting for me at the jobsite. otherwise the job goes up to $90-110.brian
*Our rates vary from job to job, but on average I am charging $4.00 to $6.00/l.f. plus $25.00/ corner for 3 1/2" to 5 1/2" paint grade crown. There are increases for stain grade, bigger crown, built up crown and if the home owner has already tried putting it up. We get $40.00 to $50.00 per door to set interior prehung doors. $35.00 ea. to install locksets for interior doors. $45.00 to $65.00 for installing exterior locksets and deadbolts. We charge around $2.00/ft to install paint grade base and casing. I usually furnish materials and charge a 15% markup on them.
*Seems odd to me that you'd drop your prices for repeat customers. They must be happy with your work and business practices, or they wouldn't hire you again. Seems like you've already established your value with them, rates could go up and you'd both be happy. If you're looking for a starting point, check out Jim Tolpin's book "Finish Carpenter's Manual". The "how-to" is pretty standard for that type book, but at the end of each chapter he gives estimating rules of thumb for the type of work described in that chapter. He gives estimate info in "so many feet of base per hour", you multiply hours estimated by your rate, and add profit & overhead. It's one of the few "how-to" books I've read that the estimating seems right. He used to write a lot for various magazines, I miss reading his stuff.
*Jim, Ive got Tolpins book and several others. Can't charge what they won't pay.Tolpins formulas won't work here YET. Gotta keep growing and slowly raising prices. Getting better and more efficient on different jobs. Every job here is a custom. Most builders do 2-3 homes a year, some do 15 or a few more. All different cost levels. All different in what is built each time and each builder has a completely different system. The pricing is higher for the builders that put less money in my pocket each year. The good/busy ones are long term. Many build for a year and thats it. They drop out of site after the 2nd year and may never come back. I want to keep the busy ones. I agree about their liking the current relationship/work, but to some price comes before quality. It aint easy. But I'll get it right with time and do just fine.People around these parts are quite used to CRAP work. They aren't paying more even if you bled for it. They don't need it. Some might not even know quality if it bit them in the arse!The reason I started this forum was to just get info.Information is power. Now if I could just cash some of this damn info I'd be able to eat! JIM
*I guess you can always eat power.;>)
*Piffin,Backband - Is an extra profile added to your standard 5/8"x 2 3/4" colonial casing, the end result is a profile of 1 1/32" x 3". It an easy way of adding more detail for your client.
*Tim,Where are you located? For the first time I've heard pricing as where it should be.
*Here's a hypothetical house, a small house. Forget window casing, and no crown molding to hang ; only base trim and doors to install. Here we go:install 210 lin ft of 3-1/2 inch pine base trim (paint grade, and you don't paint or fill nail marks, OK?) There will be 14 inside corner cuts to make and 7 O.S. corner cuts to make. What would your labor (only) cost be for this. Approx. how many man hours to complete this?Install 6 H.C. prehung interior door units (standard 6'-8 X 32 wide) complete with pre-attached 2-1/4 inch pine casing. Again, labor cost only ( please include labor for installing standard $12-$15 bed/bath lockset ; (Holes for lockset already pre-drilled) No painting or puttying. Man hours?Install 2 H.C. Metal exterior doors (6'-8 X 36 inch wide....nothing fancy, no side window panels, etc.)complete with pre-attached brick mold for exterior side only. You must supply pine casing for interior side for each exterior door unit. Again, please include labor for standard $20-$30 brass plated lockset and deadbolt.(Holes for both are already pre-drilled)Total manhours for each unit?Install doors for 2 closet openings. Each opening to be 4 ft. wide; install paint grade bifold doors for each opening. Case out exterior side only of each unit, approx 18 lin. ft. per opening. Casing same as other interior casing. Labor cost only and approx. man hours.I personally don't know what to charge for something like this. That's why I'm posing this question. Personally, I've been charging $45 for interior prehungs (this price includes lockset installation) and between $125 and $165 for exterior doors with lockset installation included. Base and casing I charge by the estimated time I think it will take me to do the job, instead of by the lin. ft. For estimating purposes, I would rather estimate by the Lin. ft. and corner cuts, but have not done enough trim work to figure this out yet. Majority of my trim work has been small sections of remodel tie-ins, not new home production runs; which is what I would like to do. But I need a fixed lin. ft. price before approaching G.C. for trimming out their new homes.Any info at all would be nice. I've enjoyed all the posts so far on this subject.Sooo.......Any takers on the above hypo job?Thanks,Davo
*I've never done much trim work...maybe a year's worth in my 25 years.I do all estimates by days and half days. If I think it'll take me five days to do, I charge for five days labor. blue
*I would do the work directly for the customer for materials times 2 for new work and more for remodeling. I would pay a sub half to three quarters of that amount depending on whether new work or remodeling and the amount of babysitting the sub needs.You should take all the numbers given here and do an estimate now for this work. I have a guy that would do a small ranch for $600 including all cabinets and counters. So the price range is huge out there. Many small time builders use moonlighting carpenters paid cash at $12-15 an hour to work on their projects weekends. All this happens because if top price was paid their little $78,000 ranches that sell wouldn't sell at $129,000. The market controls costs right down to what the sub is paid and which sub.Most GCs will tellb youwhat they pay verses let you tell them, unless of course you come in low!near the stream,aj
*OK... The Davo challenge estimate...Just becauseI'm A nice guy on a rainy day...One small Ranch builder grade material, trim preprimed.210 lin ft of 3-1/2 inch pine base trim 14 inside corners, 7 O.S. corners 14 + 7 = 21x2=42+10%=46 cuts 5 minutes/ cut= 230 minutes 3.8 hours call it 4 hours. Subs paid$15 low end, $25 with complying insurance certificate up to date on file and noneed to supervise fast quality neat work. Pay $.50/Lft to sub... High end sub,would charge $1.00/Lft. Low end sub might take a day to do job... Fast submight get it done in less than 4 hours. Low end makes $105/8= $13/hour and highend makes $210/3hours = $70/hour. Production GC will pay $105 max. Custom GCwill pay $210 if you are good, prompt, a joy to be around and finally you makehim and his company look great.$150 & 5 hours average. $30/hour made grossbefore taxes and expenses.$210 & 3 hourstops. $70/hour made gross... aftercosts and taxes spendable $35/hour. And you get a free company vehicle fromyourself out of deductable expenses.Install 6 H.C. prehung interior door units (standard 6'-8 X 32 wide) completewith pre-attached 2-1/4 inch pine casing. Again, labor cost only ( pleaseinclude labor for installing standard $12-$15 bed/bath lockset ; (Holes forlockset already pre-drilled) No painting or puttying. Man hours? 30minutes/door for door/casing/lockset complete labor. Pay low end $25 door andtakes slower subs and hour or more. Repetitive hanging by fast sub would getaverage install down to 20 minutes. Upper end sub gets $35 door for buildergrade doors.$150 & 4 hours good average $37.5/ hour... $15/hournet $600/week. $210 & 2 hours top notch $$ maker. $105/hour... $1000/week to buy beer or bibles with.Install 2 H.C. Metal exterior doors (6'-8 X 36 inch wide....nothing fancy, noside window panels, etc.)complete with pre-attached brick mold for exterior sideonly. You must supply pine casing for interior side for each exterior door unit.Again, please include labor for standard $20-$30 brass plated lockset anddeadbolt.(Holes for both are already pre-drilled)Total manhours for each unit? Yourinstall price is waay high. How long does it take you Davo? Install time...first door 1 to 1.5 hours complete with sub sill flashing, locksets, andcasings. Last door should fly if doing several in 45 minutes or less... Includesgetting door and tools mobilized to RO location and out. $40 low end and $75high end.$80 & 2.5 hours $32/hour$150 & less than 2 hours for faster sub...$80/hour.This job would take 2 daysInstall doors for 2 closet openings. Each opening to be 4 ft. wide; installpaint grade bifold doors for each opening. Case out. Labor cost only and approx.man hours. This job is the same as 2 interior doors ifprehung. It is twice the work if not. Casing does get applied to inside. 2x2x25=$100 low end. and 2x2x35= $140 high end for prehung plus maybe $20 each dooralong with added time.$100 & 3 hours low end sub to 4 hours for realslow. You should make $35/hour.$280 $ 2.5 hours for fast sub not prehung to 6 hoursslow sub. Can make $112/hour gross, must warranty work.I personally don't know what to charge for something like this. That's whyI'm posing this question. Personally, I've been charging $45 for interiorprehungs (this price includes lockset installation) and between $125and $165 (this is high, I would not pay this much except for a slider or French)for exterior doors with lockset installation included. Base and casing I chargeby the estimated time I think it will take me to do the job, instead of by thelin. ft. For estimating purposes, I would rather estimate by the Lin. ft. andcorner cuts, but have not done enough trim work to figure this out yet. Majorityof my trim work has been small sections of remodel tie-ins, not new homeproduction runs; which is what I would like to do. But I need a fixed lin. ft.price before approaching G.C. for trimming out their new homes.Any info at all would be nice. I've enjoyed all the posts so far on thissubject. Well, I gave yaa some numbers... I hope others doto. I like comparing numbers here at Breaktime... Wish more did.If any of what I posted here sounds whacky.... It mightbe or it might just be we are different.Sooo.......Any takers on the above hypo job?Thanks,Summing up....$480 for 2 days work for lower end numbers $1200/weekand $600 worth of bibles.or$850 for one long hustling day radio headphones crankedwith fresh batteries and no interuptions... and all material onsite and noscrewed up ROs or incorrectly hinged doors. Work a 4 day week... and $3400 gross, with $1500 to buyskis with.
*Thanks for the info AJ.As for the exterior door pricing I gave, those were for remodels. Had to tear out the old unit, frame-in opening if need be, installed new unit and usually added aluminum trim (that I bend using a brake) overtop of brickmold, plus install new threshold to hide any flooring discrepancies. I have not had the pleasure of installing new exterior doors on a new unit yet. The interior doors that I gave my price for were for an apartment that had been re-framed internally, so yes I guess you could call that new construction only. (I framed the walls so I knew my ROs were OK.)For those exterior door remodel jobs...took me approx. 6-1/2 hours for one, and the full 8 hours for a few others. Just all depends what I get into after tear-out.Davo.
*Davo,How do you like the times I gave? Tell me where you think your times would come in? Do you think you could do your example job in a day... 2 days... or what?near the stream,aj
*Hi AJ.I'm glad you included the time factors; which is what I wanted so as to see how I do stack up. Most times though, I try to work with another carpenter to speed things up.For installing the baseboard, you mentioned an average sub would complete the 210 LF job complete with all corner cuts in around 5 hrs.; that would work out to around 42 LF per hr installed. With my buddy (who's a lot more experienced in finish carpentry than I), we can manage nearly 3 times that amount. By myself, approx 30 to 35 LF. per hour. I was amused that you allowed 10% extra for cuts. I normally average 3 to 4 cuts extra per corner (2 cuts per piece). Normally I cut the corner first using scrap stock. Cut it a second time to "tweak" the cut to eliminate any gaps due to out-of-square walls and such; then make my final cuts into the actual base stock. On a long run of base, I may actually cut the actual stock a hair longer to be safe, and then cut it once more to final size. I am too slow when it comes to mitering the corners...too worried about cutting stock too short. Nothing I hate worse than to see short pieces scarfed jointed. Off hand, I figure I must take around 7 minutes to properly fit each corner.BTW, do you miter your inside cuts, or cope them? Coping takes me longer than 5 minutes as well.The above times I gave are for mitering both inside and outside joints.Installing pre-hung H.C. doors complete with locksets.....I can install one at 30 minutes or a little less. When working with my buddy, we can knock them out in 15 minutes flat.Exterior doors...I already mentioned that they were remodels (rip out old / install new) and they generally took me (by myself, no help) 6 to 8 hours...in all cases, doors were provided to me by the owner and I had to adjust R.O. framing in order to fit. I've installed many exterior doors when working as an industrial mill carpenter. With a helper, we could install any door, complete with lockset and also install automatic door closing devices, in under 2 hours; but these units simply had to function properly, looks and slight gaps weren't as critical as they are in the residential market.For the bifold closet door units, I meant from "scratch", not prehung units. Must physically install hinges to doors, attach floor pivots, head roller tracks, mount the trolley wheels, etc. Again, with my buddy, whole job...including casework on both sides...would take us a little less than 2 hours total. By myself, I imagine closer to 3 hours total.From reading your time factors, I guess I fall somewhere between average and slightly below average for finishing work production. This is what I need to know...how fast I should be going, and then figure ways to improve my times...as they say, time is money.AJ, thank you for sharing your timetables with me.Davo
*Great post Davo...I need to clarify for you... a corner is 2 cuts. A cut is 5 minutes. That 5 minutes includes i all the cuts needed to get that corner cut. So 1 cut is actually a measure of time to finish the series of cuts... that you and many of us would go thru.You said a corner would take you 7 minutes. I say a corner is 2 cuts and takes 10 minutes. So you may mead that your corners take 14 minutes (2 cuts x 7 minutes = 14)Your times are fine. Working with a carpenter to do trim is not the way it is done around here. You would each do different things. One would put in the doors and run casing, and one would run all the base. Or one would do upstairs and one would do down. We have ever guys that specialize in crown. Most of the speed guys stay away from crown. This one guy does crown perfectly with no whining about the rock and is faster than greased lightening.Davo... do what I did to your proposed little house for us... so we can see what you would now charge and how many days you would figure. Do it as it you would do the work solo.Copy my post and redo the numbers, that's the fastest.near the stream,aj
*Now do those cuts as a remodel for a customer whose wife is anal abouit dust in the house. The room is on the third floor. The cutting table is in the driveway. The room isn't square and the cieling isn't level so test cuts are needed. You need to tale off your shoes at the door.The job is hourly but what is the stnadard frustration fee?
*Piffin... Portable whole room dust collectors are amazing. That and a plastic curtainwall. I would explain the costs and let them choose I guess, but my customer always work with me or we don't.... next.near the stream getting ready to dust up the same home for the fifth year in a row.. and I live with them to boot during the project!aj
*That's what I use for a whole room but to finish a few pieces....?Still got to carry all that gear to the third floor.
*Your hypothetical house would be a pretty typical trim job for me with the exception of the exterior doors. I would also include window trim and usually 1 room of crown in the basic price. From your numbers I would figure a house of about 1500 sq ft. at .80 per sq ft. I would charge approx 1200 dollars. I would figure 2 days with an unskilled helper and generally come back for a half day to install locksets put down shoe mold and any adjustments that need to be made after painting.
*Davo, if you think you will be slow, you will be.Think fast. Then you will be fast.And quit double cutting everything. Measure it once, cut it once. Then nail it up.blue
*Piffin, I bought my williams and Hussey about ten or more years ago. The grey one. What an awesome machine. Problem is the guide I never quite got down to where I love what I made. Still all and all what a cool machine. I inquired about the circular addition and the cost is as much as the machine itself almost. Think its worth it? I've cranked out zillions of feet of molding off it. Also where do you buy your cutters from? The machine for $600 that allows you to make your own cutters seems really good but I never seem to have enough off of a job to buy it. I should have bought it a long time ago but what the,,,,$^%$*&%^*&,Ever use pallets to make moldings? I stopped by a local marble supplier and picked dozens of pallets out of their garbage. Pallets from all over the world......check it out......Some serious exotic woods going to the trash. Where you from bro? New York here.Andy
*Andy: I was too tight to spend $600 for the circular cutting jig. After several visits to woodshops with W&S Hussey machines, I cloned my own circle cutting jig. It has made hundreds of arched top casings, ellipticals etc. It basically is a three bearing guide that sits right under the cutterhead. Two of the bearings ride on a spring loaded sliding dovetailed block. These three bearings allow the casing or whatever to follow the desired arc. This arc template is cut out of mdf. The trim material is screwed from the back and is fed into the machine. The three bearings allow the template to turn keeping the cutter knives parallel to the springline of the curve.
*Mine is similar and homemade. I desribe it in finishing thread, I think.I believe the price i heard was close to 1100 for the elliptical jig. Mine is gray too - and about 1993, I think. Is there a diff in the red machine?I'm in Maine - Penobscot bay
*>install 210 lin ft of 3-1/2 inch pine base trim = $350.00>Install 6 H.C. prehung interior door units (standard 6'-8 X 32 wide) complete with pre-attached 2-1/4 inch pine casing.= $210.00 >Install 2 H.C. Metal exterior doors (6'-8 X 36 inch wide= $90.00>Install doors for 2 closet openings= $90.00total==== 740.00 time===== approx 2days by myself
*Jim I have been using Hometech estimating book. This book covers all phases of construction and all prices are given in s.f , l.f ect. Hometech offers this book for different geographical areas. I have found prices to be pretty accurate. Some prices need adjustment depending on job conditions and type of costumer, expierance will tell you how much to adjust. Cost about 70.00/year. Go to hometech.com to order.
*Per foot costs just don't work!$35 an hour for straight trim,and $45 for more complex joinery.Most clients will do unusual trim work on a time and materials basis, so take advantage of that! And if its run of the mill finish work,figure the job realistically and don't bog yourself down with limited square foot pricing.
*Davo, Guess I'm just cheaper and quicker than some others on this post. I'd charge about $550 for all the above work you mentioned and complete it in <1 day. 8 hours.max no call backs either! JIM
*:-)brian
*Concord MA - I don't install HC doors or small base, I base my jobs on days or 1/2 days. On the hypothetical job I'd figure my time at 3 days. Two with another carpenter. Would probably bid 4 days to be safe. $ 360 day = $ 1440.
*Hi guys,Have'nt checked this post for a while; glad to see its still receiving info from everyone.AJ asked me how long this "job" would take me if working alone and what I would charge, so here's my answer:210 L.F. baseboard.....6 hrs..........$1806 H.C. prehung door units...3hrs......$2702 ext. prehung door units...1-1/2 hrs...$1402 closet openings (4'opening)...3hrs....$105Total job...13-1/2 hrs.....total price...$695I would most likely charge $750 and would allow myself 2 full work days (16 hrs) if bidding the job.However, if times were slow (like they are this winter) I would consider charging $560 total for 2 days of work.So, there you have it.Have a good one guys!DavoDavo
*because my transmission went out and i had to wait for the tow truck in front of HD...and i'm a nice guy...+ there's a similar thread running elsewhere with the guys and gals contributing pricing for installing prehungs, pricing varying from $20 - $65 for interior prhungs installed.since i had time to kill, i checked on prices that home depot wants. suggest you do the same. your HD pricing will be different. wondering if it's just as high?quote from door department employee "...and these prices assume that the rough opening is perfectly square and the framing and walls are plumb."interior prehung - $125.00exterior prehung - $340.00dual french opening or sliders - $540 or $510.00checked on one of the entry doors for sale...mission door (slab only) $475.00same as prehung $975 (ie. $500 to provide jambs and threshold, mount, bore, assemble)finish (stain grade door) - additional $400.00brian
*Brian- What a nice guy indeed- That must've been your Valentine's gift to all of us. How sweet!............What's your location? Seems a little high but maybe that's to do it as a single job I'm sure. I beleive most of the posts here are prices included with a somewhat comprehensive trim package. Yeah- Let's see what HD charges in other locales. Thanks for the info, Brian.
*sorry. San Diego, CA.maybe we should start a thread just for HD and Sears pricing for various trades across the country.brian
*ps. they are high (admission by HD guy...DUH). but, i really don't want to start making judgment calls like "high" or "low". my call for hanging an interior door was higher than anyone else's, and it's about $30 under HD! SIX TIMES more than the lowest price quoted by one of our contributors here!just a statistical sample survey.brian