Looking for recommendations on a floor finish.
Cut the trees 2 years ago, had it sawn, dried and milled this summer. Just got done installing. Lots of blood and sweat. Want it to look good.
Thanks
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Replies
Bona products. Take your pick from oil to waterborne, natural to high gloss.
http://www.bona.com/en/US/Country_Start_page/
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
andyb
The hardest finish I've found is also the safest and easist to do.
It also dries insanely fast and has held up really well to my 150 pound dog who refuses to trim his toenails..
It's cheap fast and safe (you've been eating it since you were a kid). Plus it holds up better than most.
in addition it can be repaired if deeply scratched in about 30 secoonds without sanding.
It will shock you but test it yourself. You'll find out that everything I'm saying is correct..
Shellac!
Yes the same stuff they use on fine antiques is also the hardest finish I've found for wood floors..
It goes on insanely easy.. You can do 500 sq.ft in a morning and have a dinner on the same floor that evening.. It's not very expensive. Been around for a few thousand years. biodegradable and natural plus it's a renewable resource..
How long have you had a shellac coated floor?
On what type of lumber?
ClevelandED
About a year and 7 months. However I've been reading about it for decades.. If you do much reading, shellac for flooring was in common use as this country was born and was common right up past WW2. Another post earlier asked how to remove shellac from 100 year old floors. So it can be extremely durable. (hint, do not attempt to sand it off, simply get some denatured alchol and wipe it off. Sanding only produces clogged sanding disks.)
A little more about my floor, first you can see pictures of it at 86929.13 in the archieves. Second it's on black walnut.. Not the hardest hardwood but not terribly soft either. If you looked at it right now you'd note its heavily coated with dust. The house is under construction and dust is a fact of life. Plus I've walked back and forth across it countless times with my construction shoes on, Yeh, sometimes covered with mud. The dog runs back and forth across it all the time, he's my daughters dog and he needs to wake her up which he does by running around like a puppy.. and he's excited to get out as well. (He doesn't wipe his feet either when he comes in ;-)
Frenchy, 86929.13 has been deleted!!!!!
willy,
Sorry, I didn't check I should have said 86920.13 Ijust double checked I got it right that time.. I'm sorry.
Edited 10/12/2007 8:44 pm ET by frenchy
t.y.----nice floor.
Also shellac is easily repaired with alcohol. Good stuff!
Shellac is also easily ruined with alcohol. Don't throw any cocktail parties.George Patterson
George,
Frankly you shouldn't invite people to a party who use your single malt scotch to remove a finish from your wood work..<G> You'll find if a little wine of beer is spilt and quickly wiped up usually no harm is done.. the alchol content in most drinks with mix and water or ice is too low to have an effect if wiped up quickly..
IF something is spilt and forgotten, again no harm! No sanding is needed and any shellac that is applied melts the previous shellac to make an invisable repair. Repair is quickly done without much effort..
<chuckle> you are absolutely right..
I love shellac, but I'm not sure how it qualifies as 'cheap', at least as relative to other floor finishes. I'm paying about $20 per pound for orange shellac, so a gallon of 3 lb cut runs over $70 (with tax and alcohol). I generally get mine from Homestead.http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac3.htm
Bryan,
That 's why I buy mine premixed from Zinssers..$29.00 a gallon three pound cut at most places.. (I buy mine at Home Depot because of their faster turn over)..
I've not used Orange but it's also available.
FYI, I agree wholly with your recomemdation. And, I'll add that the shelf life issue with Zinnser has been corrected somewhat, they have added a stabilizer ( a plasticizer actually) that supercedes the home mix concoctions for use by dates.
But, the downside, is that the plasticiser decreases the final film hardness ( are you familiar with the Sward hardness scale?).Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Sphere,
I've known they were putting Methyl Isobutyl Ketone for about 3 years now and I assume that's the plasticizer you are speaking about.. I read someplace that it makes up less than .2% of the required 2.0% needed to meet requiremnts to be labeled as denatured.. I'm not sure how those proportions decrease the hardness but it must at a certain level. Even if to a trivial degree.
The bad news is that the price used to be about $22.00 a gallon at Home Depot and now it's $29.00 How much is the added ingredient and how much is due to higher costs I don't know. Frankly having a three year shelf life compared to a one year life doesn't seem worth it to me but I'm sure at a corporate level it probably makes sense..
For what it's worth I'm unable to detect any differance in older shellac that was put in place 4 or 5 years ago compared to what I've done in the past few years..
Not to pic nits, but the ethers are DB and EB ( one diabasic and one ethanol) , the vehicle that carries the polymer is glycol, the ethers make it soluble in alcohol.
The plasticisers are suspended in a poly gly solution ( similar to anti-freeze) and are then freed by the evaporation of the ethols in the mix, where they then coalesce into a co-polymer with the lac that is the heavy base, which being organic contains minute amounts of waxes and resins from the bug fodder.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Frenchy:
We placed 3 coats of (tung oil based) Waterlox on our beech floor ~ about 3 years ago just before moving into our new house (Jan 2005). It looked beautiful - until we got a lab / Australian shepard dog last summer (2006).
Can / should the shellac be installed directly over the Waterlox? Any off-gassing concerns in winter (w/ windows closed)?
daveinnh
I don't know. (how's that for honest?) I've never shellaced anything except either raw bare wood or freshly sanded wood.. That certainly doesn't mean that it can't be done simply that I've never done it.. May I suggest you go over to fine woodworking the knots forum and ask your question.. the wood workers over therre will know what the reults would be.. (You can click on it right from here up in the upper right hand corner)
One word about wood floors and dogs.. My dog can dent the wood underneath the shellac.. the shellac isn't scratched nor does it fail but the dent from the claws is underneath..
Off Gassing from shellac? Nah!
well yes sorta.. Heh, heh, ;-) when it's drying shellac will yield up the alcohol you use to apply it.. that takes as little as 15 minutes with the first coat and as much as an hour after 3 coats.. The "gases" are the same basic fumes you get when you visit a doctors office. For an hour or so after that you will get the sweet soft smell of shellac as it dries, if I could bottle that I would. It's pleasant smell to me.. past that there is no offgassing.. one of the nature of shellac is it's frequently used when a house has a fire the wood is sealed with shellac to keep that Burn smell from being released. Another words don't seal a clothes closet or hope chest lined with aeromatic cedar with shellac or you won't be able to smell the cedar..
As I've said shellac is just about the perfect finish for those who are hypersensitive to most chemical based finishes. It's natural,biodegradable, renewable and about the greenest finish there is..
I concur with all you say regarding the ease of application, durability, and clarity of shellac. What I can't figure out is how to make it a "satin" look. Straight out of the can it forms a shiny gloss finish. This is fine if gloss is what you want, but I don't. We like a matt, oiled wood type of look. Got any suggestions?
sapwwod,
use a coarse grained sandpaper to make the wood less flat. I sand to 220 in order to get as smooth a finish as possible. If you stop at 100 grit you will have a less shiney surface.then when you apply shellac it won't be very glossy..
Not sure why you want matt finish. Normally matt finish is a cover up to hide the plastic look of polyerthanes. It's also used to cover up less than steller wood, I mean you can see it's real wood but the grain, the texture, the variety that is wood is well hidden..
Satin finishes are a softer finish than a gloss finish so perhaps you tire quickly of the finish and want to redo it often? Dust looks worse on a satin finish than on a gloss finish, a little dust shows up as a lot of dust whereas with a gloss finish you're able to prolong avoiding dusting a bit longer.. Actually in a perfect world dust won't exist. ;-)
You have ever so slightly confused "clarity" and "sheen" in that response, clarity is the films transluscence, sheen is the surface ability to reflect light . While minor in some instances, disposition of UV via reflection vs. refraction can be a sore point in some circles.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Sphere,
I stand corrected.. ;-)
ShhhDON"T TELL BB or Snacho!!!
Hey for real, you are correct about sanding to 100- or 220 Grit, that wil affect ABSORBSION and light defraction for the first or second coat..which adds to the OVERALL sheen and DEPTH of color, but like anything else, this is not a cut and dried standard, the rules change with the medium that one works with, and if nothing else, temperature (ambient) really controls a lot of out comes.
Temperature affects more constants in this known Universe than any other force, and temperature is micro waves from an instant that happened billions of yrs ago, and is still warm..and here we are talking about bug poop..LOL
Happy Shellacing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
To deshine the Shellac, steel wool on the less than 4/0 is what ya want. Remember satin finishes have silicates that soften both the glow and hardness at the same time, so frequently, a few coats of gloss are used as a build up, then on final coat of satin ( speaking about non shellac finishes here).
A floor buffer with a maroon scotch-brite will dull a shellac shine, then bring it back UP with hard Carnuba wax. Buff as needed.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I had good results deglossing shellac using steel wool. It's what Sphere said.
I found that process amazingly easy. My skill level is not at a high level. So most anyone can do it, learn quickly, and get good results.
I can't see getting the "oiled wood look" though out of shellac. There's a buildup of the finish that is inherently different from the thin oiled wood look.
Frenchy, Based on your recomendations, I am going to finish my new Braz Cherry Floors with Shellac. Probably the Zinsser product. I have a couple questions. 1) should I use it straight out of the can, or should I cut it down some? The can says it has a 3lb cut. Is that ok? 2) should I use a sealer or anything else, or just the shellac, plain and simple? how many coats and sand grit between? Thanks
Jon S
How excellent a painter are you? If you are really good and really fast you can take one can of denatured alcohol and add it to one can of shellac. I can't so I use two cans of denatured alcohol to one can of shellac.. Please note, DENATURED ALCOHOL! not paint thinner or anything else.. Denatured alcohol..
Flood it on..Fast I DO mean fast! Never ever go back over, if you miss something, don't worry the next coat melts right together with the first coat and makes an invisible repair.
If you have a lambs wool applicator it goes really quickly, a wide natural bristle brush is next best. I mean barn painting wide
After the first coat wait about 15 minutes or so and then sand off the nubs that get raised.. Use 220 grit.. I have a DA sander so I'ts literally a quick wipe with the sander and things are done..When I sand by hand it takes me a second to a second and a half per sq.ft. real lick and promise stuff..
If you sand by hand two absolute rules..
1st.
Don't sand with your palm or fingers, use either a sanding block or one of those 3M sanding sponges..
2nd.
don't try to "fix" things.. the next coat of shellac will melt the first coat and all your efforts will be wasted..
Now flood another coat on , again really fast! and don't go back over applies double here.. This coat will take about a 1/2 hour to dry.. again check for nubs, there shouldn't be any but if there are you can sand them off with the same piece of sanding paper you used on the floor before.. I sheet or one sponge is all you need to do 500 square feet
The third and final coat you should need will take an hour to dry..
That's all there is,, 3 coats nothing more.. If you really want high gloss antique quaility finish you might want to color sand the 3rd coat and put a fourth coat on.
Color sanding is time comsuming, and we're talking about a floor here, once you have that high a gloss, you'll probably go nuts keeping it clean, but the process of color sanding is to lightly sand the whole floor with 320, just enough to have a uniform scuffed appearance , then light but complete sanding sand with 400, followed by 600, etc.. right up to 4000. at that point you wax the whole floor and lie to people telling them you french polished it..
If you are insane enough to want to French polish the whole floor, I don't want to know you!
The finish will be stunning, but you will have worn your arm off to the elbow and they will be by shortly with the white coat with the really long sleeves..
OOPS!
I forgot to mention when you sand, wipe off the white powder that results. I use a regular towel.. Don't worry shellac washes off a towel or any clothes so if you splash some on that nice pair of slacks just wash them..
Let the brush or whatever dry out, don't bother to clean it,, when you use it the next time just soak it for a minute or so in the shellac and it will be fine..
Edited 10/30/2007 3:34 pm ET by frenchy
Thanks a ton. So from this I get that I need to mix a 1:1 mixture of alchohol to shellac or a 2:1 mixture of alcohol to shellac. The zinsser stuff comes with a 3lb cut. is the mixture you recommend the same for that cut? Thanks again
JonS
Yes, to a can of Zinssers bulls eye shellac I add two cans of denatured alcohol.
(if you only add one can more than double the time for drying)
My gut level guess is no you can't put shellac over Waterlox, but I suggest asking the folks at Homestead finishing.
the last 5 floors I have finished I have used Verathane. I use the water based product, It floows well and dries in 2 hours to recoat. I have been told is is what is used on basketball courts. Very easy to work with and has a clear finish when dried.
Andyb
Glad to help if you want to listen. Most of my life was sanding and finishing floors. If you want a tuff floor use polyurethane. If you want a beautiful floor use polyurethane. If you want to be thrifty buy the cheapest you can find. If you want to spend more go ahead but it won't be any better. Maybe it was 10 years ago that either FWW or FHB had a good article that explained the fact that this stuff is made in only two places in the US and so the manufacturers in your area all get their raw material from the same place. If you want to get fussy you can check for solids but I have never found a meaningful difference.
If you had a large area I would recommend an applicator. However one or two rooms probably isn't worth the bother. So use a large brush, say 5 or 6" er. Thin the first coat but only about a half pint of good thinner per gallon. In this case high quality is better but cheap works too. Only thin as much as you need because once it's thinned it will only last about a week, depending on the weather. That first gallon should cover 3 or 4 hundred square feet.
Let that soak in overnight and if the weather is dry you can sand it [scuff it] with 120 or 150 grit paper. Here's where it would be nice to have a buffer and use screenback to smooth it. If more than one room I would rent one. Vacuum carefully and even tack it if fussy and you're ready to apply the the last coat just as it comes in the can. Apply liberally but leave no puddles.
If you want to stain it let me know and I'll tell you how easy it is [It's the same amount of work] but some differences.
Mesic
Hard to beat a mission-style finish on QSWO, IMO.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/mission_oak.htm