I have recently moved into a new home in northern Virginia. The hardy siding was installed with finish nails only. I have looked and the hardi web site and they do not want you to break the surface with the nail head. In my case, you won’t find a single nail that doesn’t break the surface. When I talked to the builder’s foreman, he stated “your right, we could go back and face nail- but you not going to like the results”.
Can anyone tell me if they have had positive or negitive results with this type of installation. thanks
Replies
You might ask (demand) that the builder give you a written guarantee about the siding not blowing off. At the same time, ask Hardie to send you soemthing that states that your factory warranty is in jeopardy. Then get hard-nosed with the builder and tell them to correct the problem, and by the way ... you want the siding blind nailed like it shows in the Hardie installation instructions. Theoretically he could remove and re-use probably 90% of the material, so all it will cost him is labor.
Clearly the builder/sub took the easy way out, and/or did not know what they were doing ... but who would ever install any kind of siding with finish nails? The problem you are facing is that over time, the siding will begin to loosen, and one day a good storm could take a few planks off the house.
I guess in reality you could install one correct nail as tight to the underside of the next higher plank as possible, so it's kinda hidden in the shadow.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
This sub and builder know their methods are not endorsed by Hardi. There is approximately 20 homes in my neighborhood and over forty only a few miles away using this installation method. Thanks for the advice, I'll have to locate and get the Hardi rep involved.
To clairify........the nails used are a 2" galvanized pneumatic finish nail with the clipped head (uncertain if you refer to this as a casment nail). The exposure is 7" with the nail installed approximately 3/4" from the lower edge going through two pieces of siding.
clipped head finish nails... ? Not sure I under stand that... Also, it is already face nailed... Is each piece of siding nailed at the top too where a nail penetrates only 1 siding board? Matt
Probably a 15 ga trim nail, which has a slightly t-shaped head ... or actually a T-shaped head.
He probably thinks he's doing you a favor, cuz the nail leaves such a small holes that it's easy to cover with paint.
Wonder if the building inspector would be interested?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I was wondering if that was what he meant, just never "heard clipped" and "finish nail" used in the same sencence... 15ga nails don't have much strength, and I'd be skeptable about their ability to hold up the weight of fiber cement sidiing. Also, Hardy has specific requirements as the diameter of the shank of the nail. Matt
I assume they're galvanized casing nails, not literally finish nails?
If the builder let his sider get away with this incorrect type of installation, what else did he let the other subs get away with? I'd be nervous.
I saw some siding subs (hacks) using a 16 ga. finish nailer to blind nail fc. Bad stuff.
I agree with those who say to ask the building dept., Hardie, and the builder how this affects warranties, etc.
Where in NOVA are you? I will be moving to Fredericksburg in about 3 weeks.
Jon Blakemore
>>When I talked to the builder's foreman, he stated "your right, we could go back and face nail- but you not going to like the results".
TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE
I have heard guys talk like that and I just want to hang them by their feet and bull-whip 'em.
The siding is to be installed by manufacturer's specs... period, end of discussion. Anything less is unacceptable.
I sometimes have issues with manufacturer's specs also. However, I will not put a homeowner's warranty in jeopardy by going off half-cocked and doing it "my way"... just because I think I like it better.
The appropriate approach is to get the rep out on the site BEFORE the work is done and propose the "other solution". Get the rep to submit it... and then get the company to sign off on it.... thus retaining the warranty. Sure, it takes time and planning to do this... the other way is to do it "their way" if the contractor doesn't want to take the time.
My vote... make 'em do it over again the right way... or make 'em get it in writing from the manufacturer that this method is acceptable and will be fully warrantied.
(sorry if I got a bit wound up in this post.. but a foreman telling a homeowner that kind of thing just burns my briskets)
Edited 8/15/2004 2:36 am ET by Rich from Columbus
Rich is right . I have done four houses in hardi . And am in the proccess of doing my own house now. The forman says your right but you wont like the results ? Well then you don't like it now, so Mr forman take it off , get new material , and make sure it is installed according to the spec. And make sure he installs nailing into studs not just sheating
The siding is to be installed by manufacturer's specs... period, end of discussion. Anything less is unacceptable. Yeah, but in this case the HO has to be careful, cuz I think one of the approved methods is with face nails. So, a hack installer could go back and add a face nail to each stud of each plank, and be in compliance.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Something I've never figured out is WTF is wrong with face-nailing siding. Sure, in some areas blind nailing is the standard, but in other areas face nailing is just as standard.
Granted, on some species of wood siding blind nailing is better, since it allows for shrinkage better, but, on the other hand, if the wood has a tendency to curl, face nailing will better insure the integrity of the surface.
And certainly with any modern composite shrinkage splitting is not an issue, so there's no real technical argument against face nailing. The possible argument that the nails might allow moisture entry presumes that a really lousy job of painting is done, since any decent paint job will sufficiently seal the nail heads to prevent water entry.
Appearance-wise, some might claim that face nails are unsightly, but to me a blind nailed job seems artificial. Face nails are "real", and especially if they are really lined up well they give the job a more craftsman-like appearance.
Matt,
Ed gave a more accurate description of a T shaped head (.064"x.1"). Since there is a 7" reveal, there is 1.25" overlap. The nails are installed 3/4" above the lower edge hitting two layers of siding.
Caldwellbob,
This is one of many issues I have had with this builder. They have pulled out staircases, windows and brickwork due to workmanship issues.
Ed,
I have left messages with the building inspector and there has been no call backs to date. The shank size is .064" and I believe that is 15 gauge with galvanized coating. Also, your right, I don't want them to come back and face nail into sheathing (they are not good enough to find the studs).
Jon,
I'm in Woodbridge, just about 45 minutes north of Fredericksburg.
Rich,
I agree with your "TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE", I have been fighting for plumb, square and install per manufactures specs. Unfortunately, this builder and thier subs think plumb and square are fruits you can buy at the market. Also, I never mentioned anything about nails missing the studs....how did you know.
DanH
The siding is prefinished, if they came back and face nailed, I doubt touching up the nail heads will look any good.
If they do convince you to allow face nails, then insist on having them caulked, and re-paint all the siding.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Here is a link to the spec-book recommendations from James Hardie. Refer to the specs from your architect for comparison. If the specs are written as I "think" they are... your builder needs to take the stuff off and do it right.
http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/technical/default.php
Bottom line is that you are not happy with the instalation.... the builder should be working with you to correct the situation. If he is not working with you... pull out the spec-book and hold him to it. I hate spec-books that are so detailed that they tell me what time to go to the john... but this is one of those situations where a comprehensive spec book will be the final say on what is done. (hoping that your architect put together a good spec-book)
As a side note... I once had a spec-book on a house that was 15 volumes, 4 inches thick on each volume. I almost had a heart attack when I got the thing. It literally speced what kind, size, exterior color and number of porta-johns would be on-site!! Talk about overkill!!
Rich,
Thanks, I have those specs saved on my desktop. On Monday, I have a meeting with a rep from the builder. I plan on re-presenting all my issues and I may have to go to arbitration for resolution. thanks again
Hardi specs also allow nailing directly to osb if it is at least 7/16 and nailed every 12 inches.
I,ve installed quite a few miles of Hardi and in my experience its the head of the nail that holds Hardi on the wall, not the shank of the nail as with wood. The 15ga pneumo nails are basically a shank of a nail w/ a small head of sorts, a far cry from the 7/16 head found on my 1 1/2 galv. roofing nail. I have used these same nails, but more commonly 4 or 5d galv. box nails to face nail each side of a butt joint, but this was in addition to the roofing nail installed at the top of the board INTO the studs.
As for the builders foreman......sounds like he needs to learn a little bit of customer courtesy, invite him to breaktime for his first lessons.I think everybody who reads his comment would be happy to oblige. It really SUX to have to deal with this A hole while his boss is teeing off at the country club, builders used to carry hammers,not 9 irons.
builders used to carry hammers,not 9 irons.
What a fantastic statement.
Don't get me wrong, I like to play at golf myself. Best excuse I've ever seen for drinkin beer a little bit earlier than usual. I'm just a lot better w/ a hammer than a 9 iron.