Are 15 guage angled gun nails available in hot dipped galvanized or just hot galvanized?
This is for fastening trim to treated lumber, its my understanding that only hot dipped should be used for this application
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Replies
You should be able to find stainless in that size.
I'm not too sure about the difference in nails for that application, however I have used 16 ga. finish nails(just straight up galvies) to trim/ edge out deck boards with great success...that is at least, no one has ever complained and I have gone back to a few of those houses for different jobs and didn't notice anything wierd where I had used the normal galvies..I'd say go for it...
All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
I trimmed up my deck about three months ago with straight up 1 1/4 galvies. So far, not a single rust stain. I think that this new treated lumber is a little more kind to fasteners. I wouldn't use regular galvies for anything structural, but for trim its working pretty good so far.
stay w/ Stainless nails, the new treated lumber w/ eat the regular finish nail. thats why all framing hangers are now double dipped.Spend the extra money, Easier to do it once.
I know, I know. I'm not trying to give bad advice, those galvies were just the only thing that I had on hand. Its been over three months now, and they haven't rusted. I did use a generous amount of wood glue though, maybe that is what is making the difference.
Trust me, if I had stainless on-hand, it would have been my first choice. There is only one supplier around here that sells them, but they want you to buy them by the skid. I just haven't gotten around to ordering any off of the internet yet.
FastenerUSA.com has just about everything you need in stainless and hot-dipped, both hand-drive and airgun.
Edited 11/13/2008 7:42 pm ET by arcflash
I looked at the FastenerUSA website and was surprised by the relatively low price on their 304 stainless nails. This immediately made me suspect of the quality.Has anyone used the FastenerUSA brand compared with the Maze or Hitachi brands?I need to get some more hot-dipped and stainless nails for my house siding and although I have been very happy with Hitachi and Maze - the fastenerUSA are much, much cheaper. I doubt they have the capability to paint the heads of the stainless nails that will be for face nailing the T&G in spots and installing window trim.Any thoughts on how the price can be so much cheaper? Thanks.
sic is right.
The acq treated lumber is a nail eater.
When it first came out, I had a lot of conversations with several suppliers regarding the product.
I have never seen 3x dipped but I use stainless for these such conditions.
Big box stores in my area dont sell them but both my lumber suppliers have several different sizes in stock in both straight and angled for Paslode/Hitachi etc.
This is for fastening trim to treated lumber, its my understanding that only hot dipped should be used for this application
@@@
Look for stainless. According to the modification in the Simpson bulletin, galvanic corrosion will continue. When the zinc is gone, the steel is next to go. It's a battery.
"Warning
While galvanized steel provides some protection, testing has shown that it is still likely to corrode if in contact with treated wood. The service life of galvanized parts depends on many variables including the location, installation, exposure, and the thickness of the galvanized coating."
<http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/corrosion_risks.html>
The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
nobody locally seems to have stainless, anybody have an idea where to order online?
I think I got mine from Manasquan Fastners ( for Paslode Trim-pulse)...anything else I use Floyd Tools in Floyd, Va. Both should link with a dot com added.
Break out the wallet, thems is high dollar.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I have been very pleased with the Maze brand stainless, painted head nails I've used with my Hitachi framing gun - except for the price.$200 for 1500 nails is the price both online and at the only lumber yard that stocks them and it looks like that is about the price online through Maze's website after adding shipping.Too pricey but at least they should last...doing it over is the real cost but it's hard to keep telling yourself that at ~8 cents each time you pull the trigger. Hand drives are cheaper but if you're gonna pay thru the nose you might as well make it as easy on yourself as possible.
Stainless - try McFeeley's - they have SS trim from 4d to 16d, coil nails, finish nails and brads, etc..<http://www.McFeelys.com>@@@If you worry about them coming after you with a lawyer - and they have up to ten years in CA - better use stainless.The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
hey, on a related note- i had a little q and a go around with an architect about whether anchor bolts need to be galvy, ss or what. he had spec'd regular ungalvanized AB's with ACQ plates. none of his other framers ever asked about it, so he kinda acted like I was nuts.
any opinion?
k
hey, on a related note- i had a little q and a go around with an architect about whether anchor bolts need to be galvy, ss or what. he had spec'd regular ungalvanized AB's with ACQ plates. none of his other framers ever asked about it, so he kinda acted like I was nuts.any opinion?@@@He probably should read the Simpson bulletin on this and get up to speed. Some framers use borate-treated sill stock to avoid the galvanic corrosion issues. I think Tim Uhler does this. There are side benefits of resistance to insects. (But termites support my tool habit.)Our current Habbie project - the inspector wants us to go back over the sill nailing and toe nail with galvi. I have no experience with what happens to plain steel anchors bolts in ACQ - the walls being closed up, etc. Be interesting to see.However, I inspected one Habitat porch job in the NorthWet. They did it in Feb. 08. Exposed to a lot of rain. Good conditions for galloping galvanic corrosion.In July O8 there was full rust on the wood sides of the SST post bracket and a fur of rust showing on the edges. There was no zinc left on the bolts where they sat in the wood.We jacked the post up, slid shingle stock under the base for some sort of drainage, pried the sides of the bracket away and slid Vycor in for isolation membrane. I really don't want to think about the rest of the porch or the front porch or all the nails or the lag screws. I detail decks far differently. They had never heard of Vycor. They bought a roll.I have Vycor isolation membranes behind all the hangers and brackets. The bolts are run inside PEX tubing sleeves to migitate contact with the ACQ and the washers sit on Vycor washers at both ends. My goal is to reduce the amount of metal in the circuit to the point where we are back to the good ole CCA days. Had no issues for 70 years, so why the change? $$$$$ I suspect.Detailing the ledgers - think alum. or galvi flashing in contact with ACQ. Gonner. I see there is now a vinyl flashing for this.The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
I think it's the "out of sight, out of mind" thing. No one'll ever know if those AB's are non-existent until the next shaker. And hey, the project was at least two miles away from the Hayward fault...
What, Me Worry?
He had a different crew do the framing. They were more of the get 'er done, ask no questions model. Nice carpentry from what I saw later, just not concerning themselves (or bothering the archy) with extraneous questions. I could probably learn from that- I'd get more work...
I can't remember if the concrete sub set galvy rod for the Simpson Strongwalls. Does Simpson require it? I assume they do.
But sorry, back to finish nails- With ACQ and trim I usually use H.D.G. hand drives, but then, I work T&M . ;) No, seriously, I don't usually do big enough ACQ/trim productions where it's that big a cost difference.
Where (on the building) are you guys putting trim over PT?
Maybe I should be concerned about those HDG's too, from what you all are saying. There sure is a lot of zinc goo on them tho. Hmmm...
k
I think it's the "out of sight, out of mind" thing. No one'll ever know if those AB's are non-existent until the next shaker. And hey, the project was at least two miles away from the Hayward fault...@@@ At least in CA they get a bunch of bolts. JLC had an article on twister country - looked like a hold down every 1/4 mile.I can't remember if the concrete sub set galvy rod for the Simpson Strongwalls. Does Simpson require it? I assume they do. @@@ Good question. Their web site should have the data. I must look at the strongwalls we are currently doing. Looked like 7/8 all thread. Just glanced.Where (on the building) are you guys putting trim over PT?### About the only PT in these Habbie homes is the sill stock and the external decks, stairs, porches. Maybe I should be concerned about those HDG's too, from what you all are saying. There sure is a lot of zinc goo on them tho. Hmmm...@@@ It would seem to be a matter of time, moisture, etc. I would love to do a post on some of their work done a few years back. As I recall, it was SST or Grace that suggested you do pull fasteners for inspection at intervals. Sign a maintenance contract for that deck. I think - use stainless and sleep better.The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
Duh. The OP was asking about deck trim. Sorry- watching The Office while online...
k
where am I putting trim over PT ?
mainly on the skirts of decks/porches using trex or trex like material and sometimes (and I'll probably catch some heat for this) on small sets of steps I glue the trex down with a heavy bead of construction adhesive and nail it in place with finish nails till the glue sets. I know that is probably not approved, but I have a number of these going back about 5 years and it has all held tight. probably wouldnt do it on a large deck though.
Too test how strong the bond is, I glued 2 scraps together and let it set a few days, I was able to pull it apart at about a week. I then stuck them back together (no additional glue) and llet it set. about a month later I tried to pull them apart and the board broke,the glue held tight!. I think pullig them apart and putting them back together helped (maybe helped make good contact ??) This was with synthetic decking like trex.
Hijack/Tangent:Galvanic corrosion issues with ACQ have made me rethink much of what I do:I avoid ACQ if possible (opting for borate, cedar, white oak, etc.).If using ACQ, use stainless, or HDG and isolation with Grace, etc.Also, think of ways to eliminate the need for fasteners and hardware. Beams under deck joists (rather than beams integrated into the floor system) adds fault tolerance... imagine what would happen to the structure if the hardware fails.Notch posts and let-in beams and braces.This weekend, I am building a treated retaining wall with 6x6's with joinery rather than fasteners, where possible.
Also, think of ways to eliminate the need for fasteners and hardware. Beams under deck joists (rather than beams integrated into the floor system) adds fault tolerance... imagine what would happen to the structure if the hardware fails.Notch posts and let-in beams and braces.This weekend, I am building a treated retaining wall with 6x6's with joinery rather than fasteners, where possible. @@@I have a similar approach - try to avoid the ledger and the issues that go with it. Rest deck on two beams. Loads in compression vs sheer. All the metal go away, still might be standing. A benefit is that rot does not have a path into the home. (Of course, we make money fixing that, so ignore, please.)Close to the house, need to make sure that the soil is well compacted.BTW - nice looking joints. Looks like a generous dose of Termin8 on the cuts. What was your technique for getting such a clean joint?FWIW - talk about old ways - ships were fastened with trunnels (tree nails/wood dowels) back when and that worked.
The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
I also like the free standing deck plan (no ledger).On the clean, tight joints, I use a notching jig for the circular saw. The jig keeps the saw square and plumb, etc.Here are a couple of pics:
On the clean, tight joints, I use a notching jig for the circular saw. The jig keeps the saw square and plumb, etc.@@@Tnx for pix. What I see is a shooting board with rails - nice idea. So you just slide it along, kerfing as you go. Very clean bottom on the cut. I usually move the saw back and forth like a planer for cleanout.
I assume you do same, but on the board which keeps it square. I will file this procedure away.The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
Google Swan Secure. They make stainless. They should be able to give you a local distributor.
I get SS 15 ga angle for about $90 a box at a local contractor supply. Kinda pricey, but I find that if I'm careful about only using them in applications where they are really necessary a box lasts me for a very long time.
This was the first thing a Google brought up. Cheaper than what I've been paying... There has got to be scores of online resources...
BTW - to answer your initial question more directly, to my knowledge *no* finish gun nails come in hot dipped galvanized. I'm guessing they couldn't colliate them.
Edited 11/14/2008 7:48 am ET by Matt
I was going to use 15 ga galvanized to fasten exterior trim. Nail manufacturer said that the nails are galvanized but they don't regalvanize the points or heads after they are cut.
IMO, 15ga nails do not belong on exterior work. I have been the last two weeks repairing on one that was very poorly detailed in general, trapping lots of water and causing rot.
But amoung the other items of pure old lousy woirkmanship, was the use of 15ga nails for trim. They were rusting right off ( eight or ten year old job) and even where not rusted, they had no strength to hold the wood in place, so there was excessive wood movement, openning gaps to direct even more water in when driven on the wind.
The only way I would consider this use is to use SS nails, three times as many, at opposing angles, and use glue as well
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I agree, if one must use 15 ga for fastening it's best to use an angular "stitching" pattern to get these fastners to hold and preferably with a full round head SS nail.
We normally use small gauge to tack the trim in place and nail (or screw) with heavier stuff to actually fasten.
For the uninitiated, it's good to remember that the commonly available galvanized finish nails (pneumatic) are nothing more than galvanized wire formed (clipped and pressed) to the shape of a "nail" with little to no effort to protect the machined ends. Over time, in weathering conditions, you'll just end up with a galvanized "tube" filled with rust holding together whatever was assembled with them.
http://www.manasquanfasteners.com/
http://www.floydtool.com/stainless_nail.htm#sp15a
Thanks for making them live links, but he hasn't read my post yet...LOL
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