Hi All,
I’m getting ready to start a basement remodel. I have limited framing experience and have a few questions:
1) I have radiant heat (PEX tubing) in the slab. I’m planning to use just construction adhesive to hold the bottom plate (treated). I’m worried about trying to nail studs into the bottom plate (using an pneumatic nailer). Is adhesive alone on the bottom sufficient, or should I use some other kind of hardware to help secure it? Would trim nails help until the adhesive sets? Since I’m relying heavily on adhesive, should I use polyurethane instead of conventional (i.e Liquid Nails)?
2) A book I’m using recommends installing the top plate (to the bottom of the floor joists) first, then locate the bottom plate with a plumb bob. I think I should set the bottom plates first; it seems easier to establish correct dimensions (and location relative to plumbing, etc.) that way.
3) I always thought that basement partitions should not extend to the floor joists so that they’re not affected by uneven settling, but the book I have, and all basements I’ve looked at, have the top plate against the bottom of the floor joists. That seems the best for getting a more solid wall, but any chance of problems down the road?
Replies
Hey
I've done many basement job. Here is want I would do. I would start off nailing 1x3 strapping @ 16", the wall which is parallel with the strapping double up or triple up ( u are nailing the strapping at joist.:)) Then measure the height from the strapping to the floor at all four corners and in between and find out the highest to lowest measue: example: 1. 94 1/4 2. 94 1/8 3. 94 3/4 4. 95 the highest number is 95 the lowest number 94 1/8 ;) so build all the walls 94 3/16 (+1/16 to allow the wall to be snug). I then chaulk-line the floor make sure to be sq. (bottom of the sill plate). I build the walls on the floor and then stand them up I recommend use a sledge!. Shim the top plate or bottom plate what ever is the closes to level, and then nailed to the bottom joist and so and so!
If measurement is over 1" or greater I build the wall that size.
as for the connection on the bottom sill I would use Simpson Strong-tie L bracket and nailing to bottom plate and Tapcon to the foundation............
You can email me if you have any problem or need a drawing
Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the reply. I didn't think you could build the wall on the ground and then tip it up into place if it was close to the height of the joists above. I might be able to use a Strong-tie product, but I can't penetrate the concrete (can't risk damage to the PEX tubing).
Scott
Scott,You can glue the bottom plate and then make up an l-block out of one piece of doug fir (or whatever kind of 2x you use) and the other one pt nailing it slightly past the doug fir one and then nailing it on top of the bottom plate and nailing it up against the stud and the block and that will hold everything in place at the bottom without any nails going into the slab.Joe Carola
I know but the screws have to be 1-1/4" or 1" deep. The 2x4 ACQ is 1- 1/2' deep and for building on floor and raise the wall up I do all the time! If you arent sure it will fit make 1/2" shorter. I'm tell you it will work!
Mark
P.S leave 1/2" space between concrete found. and the wall.
Where is the location of this basement? In this part of the world (Colorado) , if the basement has a concrete floor you have to float the walls. Adds a new mix to basement framing!
What do you mean float the walls?Do you mean that the bottom plate can't touch the slab?Joe Carola
Thats right. I have seen a few where the top plate is floated with D-channel.
Edited 7/8/2005 7:39 pm ET by G80104
This is how most do it, the stuff in the stud bay not included!
I still don't get why you float the walls.Joe Carola
Something to do with soil movement, If the slab heavees going to move all kinds of floor joists & the works. Seen it happen 3-4 times in the past 20 years. Makes for slow basement framing. But you can't fight City Hall around here.
They also make you cut the drywall @ the float. So you get a little ripper @ the green plate (1 1/2") then 3 " void of no DW then rock on. Makes it a PITA to run baseboard. One time a newbee inspector did not want to see the drywall bead in the void area, had to press the BS button & call his boss!
Floating basement walls are required in "expansive soils" usually bentonite clay soils. I have seen a slab in Colorado subjected to expanding soil, the slab was lifted up and closed the gap in the floating wall entirely, then lifted part of the house another 3 or 4". Had to cut off a bunch of basement wall studs to let the house back down.
Edited 7/9/2005 12:01 am ET by basswood
I some place the problem of expansive soils is so bad that the basement slab is suspeneded from the foundation walls. JLC had a article on doing that about 2 years ago.
I think expansive soils is No. 1 or No. 2 on the list of things causing property damage. More damage than hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, floods, etc.
Attach the bottom plate with subfloor adhesive and silicone caulk. The caulk isn't neccesary , I used it a couple of times because it sets up faster than the subfloor adhesive. The caulk usually sets up within an hour and you can continue to frame.
I usually frame basements with metal studs, if you rather use wood , you can still use it with metal plates. The studs are screwed from the front into the plates, no toenailing needed.There should be no settlement to be concerned with. If the joists are not yet completely dry there will be shrinkage of the joists. If this house has been heated for a year then the joists won't shrink anymore.
Go ahead and fasten into the joists, nails, screws whatever.If you use metal , you may want to either block for the base or screw 1/2" csa plywood to the studs,rock on top of the blocking. I don't bother with blocking, I found that a 15 gauge nailer will penetrate the metal studs, no adhesive needed for base.
mike
Don't let the expansive soils issue get your shorts in a knot. Denver CO, and the whole front range area is the expansive soils capital of the world. It's a BIG, BIG issue there. In a remodel on a well settled house, in almost any other area of the country this is a non- issue.
In fact, we are getting eady to build a new house in Western Colrado, and the soils report says we have the opposite problem- our soil is "hydro compressive" ie, it shrinks when wetted. So we gotta over dig the footers and basement three feet, wet the soil and refill in ten inch lifts, soaking each lift and "sheeps footing" each lift for half of forever.
Chris
The first thing I do when I lay out in an area surrounded by masonry is measure wall to wall on one end of the area and then wall to wall on the other end also. Then I mark centers of these measurements and snap a line down the center of the floor. Then I pick a place on that line that I can get the biggest square possible and snap a line square to it. I think you could check archives to find out how to make a square line. These lines will be used as control lines while you are laying out the walls. Find the shortest point to an exterior wall from the control, then mark the same measurement from the control on the other side and so on and so forth and you will come up with a perfectly square layout.
Then depending on how much discrepancy there is between floor to ceiling do I make my decision on whether to build on the ground. I do not recommend a sledge hammer, although I've had to use them in the past. I set the plates on the lines and while standing on them I measure to the ceiling joist, To find the exact measurement of a wall that will stand up in place without a whole bunch of beating. Measure the length on an uncut stud diagonally from the bottom outer edge up to a mark on the inner edge. Mark it and then measure it straight along its inner edge. The measurement usually varies about an eighth inch. And I still would cut another eighth, so a quarter less than top of the plates to ceiling joist is preferable, I describe the technique as a visual aid to help make it clear just what will and won't clear. The reason the eighth won't clear by itself usually has to do with the ceiling plane not being perfect. If the ceiling is really unperfect more will have to be subtracted.
As far as toenailing the studs to the bottom should you decide to go that route, a properly driven toe nail splits itself evenly between the two members it is connecting. Meaning a 10d nail (3'') should be 1-1/2 inches in the stud and 1-1/2 inches in the plate. Toenails should also always be set. I wouldn't worry about driving a nail into the radiant heating, but I would take my time with the gun or hand drive
If you build the walls down on the floor and the stand them. once the wall is in place it will not be tight, so with your construction adhesive in place shim the top plate pressure locking your studs until the glue sets. The shims should remain to create a solid connection between top plate and joist. I would be very careful that the wall is not bumped off its line because when the adhesive sets up you will not be able to move the wall without a major "doler in the cooler" (for all you spanish speaking people out there)
As far as the difference between const. adhesives they are different in their holding power, the const adhesive is less strong the subfloor adhesive and I don't know technically where the urethane comes in but I've used it and it seems like the strongest in the bunch.
I don't do many basements, but the framing I do has many similarities. I hope this helps some.
Here are my opinions for your questions
1 I have had success with polyurethane glue holding a plate to a concrete floor.
1,2,3 together. Go steel man! The basement remodel is the ideal place to use steel. You can lay down the base track and connect it with a 1 inch striker nail which is nowhere near your radiant heat. You build a great straight wall in place for a price in line with wood with none of the problems linked to wood. As long as you have a drill (corded or cordless), a tin snips and a level your ready to roll.
Have a good day.
Cliffy
Gentlemen,
Thanks for all of the suggestions. The partitions are now up.
First, I used wood. Steel studs in northern Illinois are much more expensive and I bought a framing nailer last year just for this purpose.
Second, I glued the bottom plates and let them set up. Then built most of the walls (top plate and studs) on the floor, stood it up and toenailed into the plate. I decided this was the only way I was going to get the wall to stay where I wanted it. I'm using 3" nails a was careful with the placement. I also decided that at an angle, any nail that hits concrete would probably just deflect. Had to do some creative things to anchor the top of the walls since the basement ceiling is full of obstacles, but everything is solid now.
The next challenge is how to do the ceiling. Planning to use drywall, so I'm thinking about using 2x4 with hangers and support it mid-way or 1/3 and 2/3 of the span to the joist above. This gets me below all the duct work, steel, and other stuff. I need to get at least 6" below the floor joists to miss all of the obstacles.
Scott
If you're going to rely on the adhesive for holding the bottom plate you'll need to get the concrete very clean. A belt sander with dust pickup could be used to define your perimeter. Set the plate in adhesive using tightly fitted studs pushing against the joists.
At openings cut a 3/8" kerf on the underside of the plate. Remember 3" for king studs.This will help you hold your lines around the room. Cut through to the kerf later for the openings.
When the plate is set remove the studs. This way you won't have the time pressure of setting adhesive. Get or construct a "third hand" device to hold the top plate plumb over the bottom plate. Lay in tightly fitted corner studs after cutting a load of 14 1/2" blocking stock. Nail the block to the plate with 8d's. Set the next stud, add the block. Your stud spacing is now determined as you continue the process.
Instead of measuring with a tape, square a stud that is slightly overlong and gauge (take a direct reading) of the stud for each opening, this will insure that you get the fit you'll need.
You can now safely toenail the stud to the block without worry. You can use a 16d's that will reach but not penetrate the plate. Lay out the geometry with a nail at the angle you'll be shooting so you know where to place the nailer's nose. Cut a board for this height so you don't have to even check yourself. Rest the nose against this board.
This reads more awkwardly than it will be once you get a rhythm. The blocking will help with layout and make for a solid wall.