I have a small cylindrical addition (it is only 9 foot diameter on the inside) that I would like to finish with drywall and tile at different locations. It is 2X6 construction with the studs on about 10″ centers…what is the chance that 1/2″ drywall will bend around this wall? I’m guessing not, so then what is the best way to do it? And how would I handle the backer board for tiling a shower with a curved wall?
Thanks,
Shawn
Replies
If you wet one side of the drywall and let it soak in for a couple of minutes, 1/2" should bend that much. If not, 3/8 will do it easily, just use two layers.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You could also use two layers of 1/4" high flex. That's more expensive, but it'll easily fit your radius without any additional messing around.
1/4" flex. Wetting regular drywall doesn't work as well as some might suggest. Very often it doesn't bend smoothly. I certainly wouldn't recommend wetting both sides. The 1/4" flex is made for this.
Also, is this tiling going to be in a wet location? If not, why bother with durock? I've torn out plenty of showers tiled right to plain old drywall from the 50's through the 80's that are still standing no problem. I wouldn't worry about decorative tile over drywall.
I am a DIY homebuilder with admittidly zero tiling experience. So, I have to ask the basic questions- the area I plan to tile will be a bathroom shower, and I thought that Durarock was required as a backer for the tile/mortar to adhere to. If I did as you suggest and tile directly to the drywall, what makes it 'stick'? Also, would there be special waterproofing membranes required in this area?
thanks,
shawn
Shawn,Don't even think of using drywall in a shower enclosure without a waterproof membrane like Kerdi. You can put tile on drywall in non-wet environments, but tile over drywall in a shower with nothing else is going to make a real mess to clean up in a year or so.You can find more info on Kerdi here: http://www.schluter.com/8_1_kerdi.aspxThe tile forum at John Bridge is a great place to start as well:
http://www.johnbridge.com/kerdi_shower.htm (photos)http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php (forum)And, here's a thread from BT with a Kerdi install:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79773.215
'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
As I stated, you can use drywall behind tile, BUT ONLY IN DRY AREAS. If moisture-resistant drywall is used you might get away with using thinset, but generally you should use tile mastic instead. You MUST use either cement board or metal lath and mortar behind tile in a shower.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
You MUST use either cement board or metal lath and mortar behind tile in a shower.
I thought that this was the benifit of Kerdi, you can go over regular sheetrock with it and make a waterproof wall.
Waiting for a real tile guy to verify.
Doug
I'm only slightly familiar with Kerdi, so I don't know if that's an option or not. If it is, I'd put it over tempered hardboard or some such, vs drywall.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Per the manufacturer, drywall is recommended (even perfered) as a substrate for Kerdi.See: http://www.schluter.com/8_1_kerdi.aspxYou could do either two layers of 1/4" hi-flex, glued and screwed or two layers of 3/8" if the hi-flex isn't available (the hi-flex is worth the price). With the 3/8" you might get some slight visible flats, but you can take care of that when you tile, if your careful.So: Two layers 1/4", then thinset, Kerdi, thinset, tile.Thinset does NOT come in a bucket, no matter what the label says. It comes in a bag and must be mixed with water. DO NOT USE MASTIC IN A SHOWER!After reading the Schluter site, research Kerdi further here:http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php?Good Luck,
JerryPS: Plaster would make a really nice wall; probably not necessary under tile.
I appreciate the instructions. Per others' recommendations, I was leaning towards one layer of 1/4" plywood, one layer of 1/4" drywall, then the kerdi and tile...any reason why you suggest two layers of drywall instead (it seems like the wall would be stronger and more dent resistent if I used the plywood in place of the first layer of drywall, since some areas of the room will not be tiled, only drywalled)?
Also, you said to "glue and screw" the two layers of drywall together- what type of glue are you talking about? If I use the plywood + drywall combo, would I want to glue and screw the two layers together also, or just screws?
Thanks a million for the tips!
shawn
I think the ply then drywall would be fine; it probably won't make a difference either way.Use drywall glue; it's nice and 'squishy'. You may not even need the glue, it just makes me feel better; like I now have 1/2" DW instead of two layers of 1/4".Jerry
Thinset does NOT come in a bucket, no matter what the label says. It comes in a bag and must be mixed with water.
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Tut,tut. I get real nervous when I see a tile setter making thinset WITH water when there are so many better choices.
A little more research would seem to be in order. Very good thinset is available premixed in a bucket.
http://www.mapei.it/Referenze/Multimedia/Ker121_TD_EA.pdf
I'm confused.
From your link...TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:ISO 13007: Ker 121 is C2ES1P1.
ANSI: Meets or exceeds ANSI A118.4 and ANSI A118.11 requirements when mixed with waterINSTRUCTIONS:...2.1 Into a clean mixing container, pour about 1-1/2 U.S.
gals. (5,68 L) of cool, clean water. Gradually add 50 lbs.
(22,7 kg) of Ker 121 powder.I stand by my statement; but willing to learn.Jerry
Edited 1/7/2008 8:17 pm ET by Jerry18
Sorry, fat fingers, getting used to Vista, under the influence of fast food . . . this the one I was aiming at. http://www.mapei.it/Referenze/Multimedia/PlanicreteW_TD_EA.pdf
"Very good thinset is available premixed in a bucket."Maybe we're splitting hairs, but I still don't believe your statement is true - fast food high or not. ;-)...and I still stand by mine.The link you provide is for a two part (still has to be mixed) polyurethane adhesive that would be fine in a shower, however, it's expensive, not readily available (big box stores) and has to be mixed in full units with a one hour pot life. Plus, if you read the MSDS you might be convinced to stick with thinset, unless there was a good reason to use a product like this.MSDS: http://www.mapei.it/Referenze/Multimedia/PlanicreteWPtA_MS_EA.pdfThere are also two part epoxy adhesives that would work as well. In my opinion, neither is necessary and thinset is fine.My main point was: the big box stores sell 'premixed' (one pail) stuff that says thinset on the label. It's not! It's also neither epoxy nor polyurethane and unlike those two adhesives, it's water soluble. Not a good thing in a shower!True cement based products cannot be premixed, because once mixed, they begin to cure (hydration) and cannot be stopped. They do not depend on the presence of air to 'dry'.I'll stick with real thinset (pun intended).Jerry
Sticking with real thinset is good - and should ever be, while it will stay stuck . . .
I was initially calling out a general statement which I think is difficult to support. But have helped me understand more. I thought the general context is in big letters at the top of the page in front of the .com. The idea of focusing discussion around what's available at the blue and orange stores never occurred to me. The blue place does carry Mapei, different stock at each store so you can't rely on them, even in a pinch. Most ingredients used a professional setter do not show up in box stores. If I were to get another job covering a 4 story outside wall of a ski lodge with slate, would I do it differently and use thinset? Nope!
Good thinset is wonderful, and becomes more so with the proper admix, giving the setter better control.
There are lots of trade-offs in all we do. The urethanes and epoxies won't give you silicosis, thinset doesn't have stinking fumes, but I think the MSDS for all of them says to keep the product out of the holes in people. I bought some steel shop-shelving which arrived with an MSDS in the package. Said the same thing; don't put these in people. Good idea with most of our building materials. Don't need to let the MSDS drive the bus, it's only a guideline along the route.
Doug,You are correct. Schluter specifies that Kerdi can be applied over regular sheetrock and you'll have a waterproof enclosure. I think most applications I've seen posted here have been over traditional cement board, as a 'just in case' measure. But I'm pretty sure that the link I listed above from the 'Small Addition' in the photo thread is using kerdi over plain old drywall.Best,
Steve
'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
Sorry, I didn't realize it was in a shower. You should not tile to drywall in a shower.
My point was only that tiling to drywall is fine in a dry environment.
Get a piece of drywall, wet it and try. If it doesn't work, get another piece and wet it more. I did an 11" radius on one job. Had to get the drywall really wet on that one.
Your question about cement backer board is tougher to answer. I doubt it would bend that much. Might have to go with metal lath and plaster. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
i'd do metal lath & plasterMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'd do metal lath & plaster
Bragger! Don't we all just wish we could. And get a blueboard and skim job, too!
But, Mike, as you well know, in many parts of the land outside your own, getting plastered is something done to one's own body, and as to how it might relate to housebuilding, well, no one knows for sure.
metal lath is pretty easy to come by.....
and you can substitute Durabond for plasterMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think both the drywall and Durock will make the bend if you're patient. At least, I would'nt write it off because some people here in the forum told me I couldn't. What does it cost to get a sheet of each and try it?
--------------------------------------------------------
For a good time, visit MyToolbox.net
See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
When we did one that size, we used lathe and plaster. With sheetrock, it's fairly easy to end up with a segmented look that's a dead giveaway. I've done durock on one that size, and scored the back every few inches, but then I had to float thinset over it to properly round it.
Do it by hand.
Metal lath and plaster like Mike says.
Sheetyrock may work for the short run - Go with a tried and true for the long run.
FWIW.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Metal lath and plaster like Mike says.
Hello ... excuse me ... check the time stamps, Mike copied that idea from me. And need all the credit I can get around here. <mumble grumble> ... the nerve of some people"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Man, I'm gettin' bounced around pretty good here lately.
Sorry, didn't mean to pi$$ on ya'.
I opened the thread and speed read down through it reall quick to see what direction it had gone off to. Then I scrolled back up real quick to see who to give credit for the plaster, and must have stopped short.
It was my mistake not stating that Mike Smith actually learned that from you. ;)
Please accept my appology.
- Holdin' head low, kickin' dirt, humbled, feelin' low - Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
i have faced arched openings by scoring the drywall on the back at intervals and then popping it. the paper face keeps it together nicely. is there a reason this wouldn't work on a larger area?
That works okay with solid backing, but if it's just framing (every 10" in this case) anythign bumps against the wall will go right through it.
I recommend drywall/durock because of the skill needed to achieve a curved plaster wall. Probably the easiest way is to use 1/4 wetted and glue up 2 or 3 layers. Bending a 4 1/2 foot radius is't that difficult, but floating one with plaster could take some practice.--------------------------------------------------------
For a good time, visit MyToolbox.net See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
i don't understand, though, why that's worse than a straight wall with 16" framing...?
4.5 radius is pretty tight. I did a larger radius, and it was a bear to get the DW to fair. I decided to use "wacky wood"...bendable plywood...and then soaked some thin DW. It faired well over the wood radius. My studs were closer than 10".Thats if you don't like to plaster.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I did an arched hallway ceiling some time back, the sharpest radius being about 40 inches. I stood the 1/2" drywall on it's edge, wetted it back and front, let it soak a good long time, and bent it a little at a time while keeping it wet. It took about 3 hours, but when it finally had enough curve in it I let it dry, still standing on it's edge. Basically, I made the curve in the drywall before hanging it.--------------------------------------------------------
For a good time, visit MyToolbox.net See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Is there a difference between 'wacky wood' and regular plywood? I sheathed the exterior of this addition with 3/8" plywood and it made the curve with no problem. That said, I'm guessing the 3/8" would possibly work on the inside (a slightly tigher radius, of course), and that 1/4" plywood would definately make the radius. I have seen reference to bendable plywood in various places, but don't no exactly what it is, or why I would want it over regular plywood??
thanks,
shawn
"Wacky wood" is plywood that is intended to be bent. It curves naturally on one axis, but not on the other. Since it's designed to curve, it "Fairs" well. That is, the curves are smooth and consistent, without bumps, or ridges or flat spots. In my experience (and I should mention that I've spent time shaping and fabricating concept cars..you may have seen cars I've had a hand in at some auto show like NY or Detroit, so I'm probably a little over the top with curves and such, LOL), when I've tried to curve drywall, it curves, but it can telegraph stud locations, and result in lass than optimal curves. If you've had success with thin plywood, fine! Build it up over a couple layers. In my limited experience though, I just decided to get the "right stuff" as I felt that I was dorking around trying to get the the curve the way I wanted.Also, if I understand correctly, this is a 9 foot diameter job, right? Which means it's a 4.5' radius curve. Pretty tight. You'll need to choose tile carefully...too large a tile will "stairstep", and look awful.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
as lateapex said, wiggle wood is highly flexible in one direction. i believe that it is made by laminating layers all the same direction, as opposed to alternating layers perpendicualrly, which gives normal ply stability.i first worked with it in a scenic shop. you can take a sheet of it and roll it into a tube, maybe 2' diameter or even tighter.
I'm not sure we're on the same page here. I was refering to the comment about backscoring the drywall to make the bend, which you obviously wouldn't do on a straight wall.--------------------------------------------------------
For a good time, visit MyToolbox.net See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
see what you mean.
btw, would there be a problem with stapling sturdy hardware cloth to the studs first as a backer, intstead of wiggle wood?
Go with metal lath and plaster like Mike said or that Eddie said that he said before Mike said what was said. At least that's what I say
1/4" wacky wood + 3/8 drywall add Kerdi membrane on the tile side.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Probably over the bid for that part, but the best way to do it. And cheaper than hours/days of trial and error.
1/4" plywood will bend to a 9'-0 radius,then 3/8" rock over it. Use 1 1/4 coarse thread screws into studs. Try and bend 1/4" backer board, if it works then you could do the plywood again and the backerboard over the plywood.Plywood as a base helps prevent flat spots.Screw the backerboard with galvanized deck screws.
mike
Instead of two layers of drywall, use a layer of thin OSB and a layer of thin drywall. The OSB provides a smoother bend and lets you fasten the drywall at more spots. Just try not to get the OSB too wet.
And keep in mind that for dry areas you can tile over drywall, though certainly not in a shower.
I don't know about the US but there is available here a bendable dry wall I cant remember the stats but check with your local manufacturers
You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
Built many radiused walls in commercial work. For tighter ones we would use two layers of 1/4 inch. Wet on the back only. Stagger joints, both horizontal and vertical. Use a notched trowel with drywall compound as adhesive between the layers. For the tile use wire lath and cement plaster.
Staggering the joints is important and something I forgot to mention... Thanks.I also like the idea of DW mud between the layers - I'm going to try that next time. Probably neater than the glue.
OK all you drywall geniuses here's a teaser for ya. I have done this before so I have a plan. This one should be ready for the rockers in a few days.
The vertical (corner) curve is an 8' Radius and the horizontal (floor to wall) curve is a 4' radius. So the challenge lies in the double compound curve at the bottom of the corner.
Please note that this is still a work in progress and the lower strapping is not installed yet nor are the floor frames anchored. Bracing is also incomplete.
Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack but it seemed to be pertinent...
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 12/31/2007 4:04 pm by Novy
Edited 12/31/2007 4:05 pm by Novy
Photo set?If you were to rock it, vs mudding it or doing shrink wrap, the way to go would likely be to use the framing to size your gores: Use a piece of cardboard or thin ply cut slightly wider than your joist spacing. Flex it onto the forms and trace the edge of the framing onto the back. Then cut out that piece and use it as a model for cutting gores in your drywall. Go with 1/4" or 3/8" drywall and do two layers, offsetting the gores on the second layer.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Hi Dan
I think I know what you mean but could you clarify the context of the word gore for me?
It will be rocked with 2x layers 1/4". The last one we did we just used plaster lathe for the compound corner.
To answer your question yes it is a photo set. it is actually called a cyclorama wall. The intention is to remove all the corners and horizon from the camera lens. This one is for an advertising studio. The real key on this thing is the plasterer. If he does not get it perfect it will fail visually........
On a hill by the harbour
Take an orange and slit the skin from one end to the other. Then rotate 20-30 degrees and make another slit. Peel off the bit of orange peel you've separated this way. What you have is a gore.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Duh!!! Gotcha now.
I was just not familar with the term in the building context
On a hill by the harbour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore_%28segment%29
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Very cool.
I hate to say this but if I told my rockers to do it that way I would get a blank stare........
OOPS that reply was supposed to be to Rufmike.
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 1/1/2008 5:35 pm by Novy
I would get a blank stare........
I am familiar with that image. <g>
Here is part of a curved one we framed last month, started rocking last week. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Very cool.
I love building curves.
On a hill by the harbour
Looks like a Washington Mutual Bank. I was an estimator for a GC and we did a bunch of them around denver
It's a med center. Did alot of Wells Fargo's in grocery stores a few years back. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
if you turn it upside down....that's my train room in the basement
it was time consuming but came out perfect
the curved wall is studded say 12" oc... the vertical to horizontal is made of plywood sections
apply expanded metal lath & brown-coat plaster..... finish with diamond or imperial
make your own "pool trowel" by taking a 12" plaster trowel and bending the spine then grind the ends into an oval
or you can buy a pool trowel
believe me... plaster is fun ... in small amounts...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey Mike,
Here is an upside down one we did last year.
The whacky thing about this one was the construction is ply frames with privacy lattice ( Bends Great! ) stapled to them to provide a substrate for stapling the low nap carpet to. The carpet was very randomly stapled and "wrinkled" then plastered. The desired look was plaster over stone.
Regarding the pool trowel......... I have a great plasterer.
On a hill by the harbour
helen says your wall is nice , but Tom Selleck is cuter
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The girls do seem to like Tom.......
On a hill by the harbour
Novy, Looks great . What type staples did you use. It seems on first thought that the plaster/carpet would create considerable weight hanging off them. I would be thinking of not wanting to be under that assembly if a quake happened. I would worry about the staples pulling through the carpet backing .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We used 1/4' crown staples ( Alot of them )
You would not believe how much effort was expended in getting that cieling down.
The plaster coat is not that thick because the low nap carpet cheats very well for texture. You would have to see it up close to understand it..........
We don't have earthquakes here just the odd tail end of a hurricane. Don't forget that that set needed to last for 1 day...........
I forgot to add that we built a camera platform on top of that set to shoot into another one.
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 1/6/2008 11:08 pm by Novy
I missed the part about it lasting one day !! makes a lot more sense now. DUH! ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Just thought I would post the finished product of my hijack.
Unfortunately the shadow from the house lighting falls right in the most interesting parts of the corners.
Edited to add that no 1/2" drywall was wetted or scored in the making of this wall............ We did use plaster lathe in the compound corner.
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 2/7/2008 3:25 pm by Novy
hey, pretty cool !
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike
The shadow in the pic is killing me but one of the partners in the studio is the director of photography and has promised to shoot the studio properly lit.
On a hill by the harbour
BTW image # 00199 is a great image of my butt
On a hill by the harbour
Nice. time to shred dude!
View Image Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Funny you say that because one of the first things that kid actors are told is stay off the CYC............
On a hill by the harbour
Skateboard might be a bit much.
But...............
How about RC cars?
Edited 2/10/2008 2:04 pm by Shoeman
As a rocker and metal stud framer, I would hold the framing back on one side and run the rock wild into the dead space on one curve, then straight edge the other curve and mark the compound line on the rock. Then use 1&1/2" framing angle cut like a spine to form backing for the other plane, screwed from the back to the existing curved rock. Make sense? Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I think I know where you are going but by the time I figure it out my plasterer will have it done I hope..........
On a hill by the harbour
Why would you rock this? So much faster and easier with wire lath and plaster.
only easier if you are good at it.
We will use plaster lathe in the compound corner but i beg to differ on the rest of it being faster with plaster............ The drywall will bend to the curves and just needs to be crackfilled.
To begin with we would have to use a backer for the lathe which in my opinion would be a completly unnessarry step. We will be back on that job in the next few days and I will post pics of the plaster prep.
On a hill by the harbour
If this is to be feathered into the floor also I'd be concerned with cracking at the floor. I think plaster would be more stable. Couldn't wire lath be put right on the radius, are they spaced too far apart? EDIT: Did someone say this only has to last one day? If thats the case use as much drywall as you can. We had built one years ago for a tv production studio in NYC, did the radius' in black steel strap. wire lath and plaster.
Edited 1/7/2008 6:52 pm ET by rlrefalo
The feathered into the floor part is an expected maintenence item. These things get painted all the time so the touchup is just part of the program. No big deal.
On a hill by the harbour
I've had a 5' diameter circular stairwell done with two layers of 1/4."
Peeze of cake and looked great. Simple, quick.
You're probably doing this anyways,but hanging the sheets horizontally will give you more leverage for bending.
My local lumberyard tells me they can't get "Hi-Flex" drywall, but they can get "regular" 1/4" and 3/8" stuff (I live near the north pole, not alot of resources here). So will the std drywall bend appropriately without breaking to handle this 4.5 foot radius, or is it important that i get the Hi Flex material??
thx,
shawn
The 1/4 in. stuff will definitely do it but I'd use glue for the final layer.I'll also say to read the whole disscussion as most of the guys have more experience than I.
My rockers are telling me they can bend 1/2" drywall through a 4' radius.
We will see but they are pretty good............
On a hill by the harbour
I'll believe it when I see it...send a picture!
shawn
Haven't been on site today as my plasterer is in charge right now. that being said I have not had panic calls yet...........
PS I speced 1/4" bendable and they said it was not needed.
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 1/10/2008 8:07 pm by Novy
I skinned the top of this with 2 layers of 3/8 ply, underneath 2 layers 1/4 drywall.
Hey Shawn,
You wanted a picture. See post #98763.83.
On a hill by the harbour
whatever you do, DO NOT PUT WET DRYWALL ON YOUR WALL!!!!as a remodeling contractor I have learned it is easy enough to have your own little black mold farm accidentally without giving it a jump start, especially in a moist area!!!!
Mold would need a constant source of moisture to flourish. If his shower is constructed properly, that shouldn't happen. For his radius he may not even need to wet it, but if he does, he should just let it dry before wareproofing and he'll be OK.
Trust me I see amazing things happen. moisture would take a long time to completly leave the drywall, besides it would be a stupid move when there are other options!
By the way "shouldn't happen" is my favorite phrase, it keeps remodelers in business!!