I have just installed two new staircases in my house. The treads are red oak and I want to finish them in a clear finish. My concern is that I do not want to put a runner on the stair case, so I need a very strong finish. What kind of finish can I use? I’m thinking something like they would use on a basketball gym floor. Thoughts?
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Replies
Street shoe has worked well for me.
pauls5923
The hardest finish (and easiest to apply) is shellac. Most other finishes are softer and far more toxic in application.. Shellac is safe, you've been eating shellac all of your life, it's on pills and a lot of candy..
If you doubt me buy a little shellac yourself and do a test.. I know it's normally used on fine antiques because of the beauty it imparts to the wood and people treat antiques delicately.. but the shellac finish is anything but delicate..
If you want to see my hardwood floor done in shellac go to 86920.13 . that floor has been trampled on by my 150 pound newfoundland who refuses to trim his claws and not scratched yet. a A/C unit overflowed a great puddle of water and it was on it for hours before dicovery and the only result was the dust was cleaned off..
Shellac is amazingly easy to repair scratches can be simply removed with a little denatured alcohol and repairs melt into the old shellac so there is no need to sand!
If you'd like I'll give you easy fool proof insytructioins on how to do a flawless job..
just ask.
Frenchy,
I don't want to hijack Paul's thread, but I am interested in your secret family recipe for shellac. I am just finishing up a new oak bathroom vanity and am looking for a durable finish. My first choice was poly, but I am interested in shellac. Would you recommend shellac for a bathroom?
Experienced, but still dangerous!
Planeman,
My secret family recipe is I go to the big box store and buy a can of zinssers bulleye shellac (clear) add two cans of denatured alcohol (alcohol not thinner or something else alcohol!) and then flood it on really really fast!
No mere mortal can keep a wet edge with shellac it dries too fast so don't try.. flood it on and it will fix itself
shellac simply wants you to get out of it's way!
as for bathrooms, well that can be a sticky wicket..
How steamy do you get the bathroom? a little water if wiped up doesn't affect shellac but constant exposure to steam I'd use lacquer instead.. Not Polyurthane.. too plastic looking and satin is just lousy, you lose all grain and color and the beauty of the wood..
Frenchy, we use shellac as a sanding sealer and work surface we can walk on and finish in oil poly.
Why don't you tell the good people what happens to an oak floor finished in shellac when a moist object (drywall mud, dog poop, pudding, spagetti sauce, etc.) is left in contact with the floor until dry?
Tell them about the wood staining that can occur through the shellac and how hard that is to fix.
I enjoy your enthusiasm for shellac, I use it for a number of things, but as a floor finish it's pretty fragile protection.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
IdahoDon,
Water has no effect on shellac if wiped up in a reasonable time. I keep using my overflowing airconditioner as an example. I had set a window aic conditioner in my daughters room and somehow forgot to tilt it down. As a result there was a large puddle about 6 feet in diameter when I came up in her room late one night to close her windows from a storm that was passing. I took a few towels and wiped up the puddle.
I expected to see it white in the morning,, but it wasn't. In fact the only result was that area was now dust free.
Had it continued I agree that eventually the shellac would have turned white..
However simply wipe up the white areas with denatured alcohol and reapply new shellac.. no muss, no sanding, easily done, and a invisable repair would have occured.. New shellac melts old shellac and makes it's own invisable repair.
I also addressed the issue of spilt beer wine booze etc.. most drinks are realitively low in alcohol content, beer starts out as 3.2 % and may go up as high as 8% wine is similar, most mixed drinks are also similar, even a straight shot of 100 proof booze without ice is only 50% alcohol. that gives you time to wipe up a spill without panic.
A modicum of care used with booze should prove harmless to shellac and the use of coasters could be encouraged by having them readily at hand..
Can shellac be damaged? Sure! But the ease which it can be repaired is second to nothing!
I'm not talking about the damage to the shellac, but to the damage to the wood underneith! Shellac allows moisture to penetrate to the wood below. I'm not asking you a question, I'm simply stating the obvious that you keep talking about the finish and not pointing out that the finish might be fine, but the wood is stained under the finish. Oak, especially red oak, has a lot of tanins and stains redily with moisture containing small amounts of contaminants.
I'm not guessing on this, this is what happens to our shellac seal coats during construction.
Good shellacing
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
IdahoDon,
Well you've got a few points wrong.. shellac is a good sealant, otherwise pills and candy wouldn't use it. I gave an example of how shellac held water on top of wood for hours.. there was no moisture penetration during that period or the shellac would have given a warning by turning white..
Leave water standing on most floors long enough and the wood underneath will react badly. the differance is the ease the finish can be removed with shellac compared to other finishes and repaired..
As for the wood underneath..
Again a couple of points. red oak has few if any tannins.. white oak has all the tannins..that's what makes white oak decay resistant whereas red oak isn't..
Second should moisture get to the underlying wood which is possible with shellac or any other finish wood can have problems,, leave it long enough and the wood will turn black from the mold that is formed..
The correction is the same with shellac as with any other finish, remove the finish bleach the wood or do whatever is required to repair it and refinish it. The advantage shellac has is the ease of doing that compared to other finishes..
Don I appreciate your questions, it shows your interested in shellac and are willing to bring forth your thoughts and concerns.. there are a lot of lurkers here not willing to do that. They won't thank you for your questions but I will.
Thank you..
One final point.. I gain nothing from this! I don't own a shellac company, I don't sell it and I won't benefit so much as a discount on the shellac that I purchase for my own use.
Again a couple of points. red oak has few if any tannins.. white oak has all the tannins..that's what makes white oak decay resistant whereas red oak isn't..
Red oak has plenty of tannins, even if white oak technically has more, but my point is red oak is very reactive to moisture born contaminants and stains easily.
I'm not a fan of shellac any more than anyone else. It's always been a good universal sealer and never been a great surface finish.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Do some research Idaho Don,
While there are probaly tannins in pine they aren't as extensive as white oak, redwood, Black walnut, or other decay resistant woods. Red oak is not decay resistant..
Never been a great surface finish? Exactly what do you think all restorers of fine antiques use anyway? ... shellac.
Have you ever heard of french polishing? Doesn't get any finer than that .... shellac.
Frenchy, make a list for this poster and tell him all the liguids that DO NOT affect shellac.Now show him a list of liquids that WILL affect polyurethane. Both answers are zero.Now tell him which one he should use on steps of red oak. No, don't tell him because you'll ignore all the facts and get it wrong again. Shellac tougher than urethane? Frenchy- Frenchy!I suppose there are acids that will etch urethane but they are unlikely to be in a residence.Those guys building what we call antiques didn't have urethane. That's why they used your stuff. ------Mesic
mesic
I can stain granite if I leave grape juice on it or wine. However if I'm not a slob and wipe up spills granite won't be stained by most things.. same applies to shellac.
So the list to be complete should have some sort of time line.. I've already explained countless times that water doesn't affect shellac if wiped up within a few hours. I've also explained just how simple shellac is to repair.. polyurethane isn't simple to repair.. polyurethane requires your services.
You or someone like you.. That's not cheap.. what do you charge to sand back and refinish a 500 sq.ft. floor? Assume there is a great big scratch where the kids dragged the sofa across the room and it scratched the floor with all 4 legs.. right down to the bare wood.
What would you charge to repair those scratches? Repair as in make invisable. Not detectable even with a close examination..
The home owner could do it with shellac in a couple of hours for around $20.00 and most of that 2 hours would be used sitting and waiting..
Mesic you seem to doubt that shellac is tougher and harder than polyurethane. Take some scrap wood and put your polyurthane finish on it and then put the three coat shellac finish I described. Let's give them time to fully harden and reach maturity say a month. Now dig you thumbnail into each one.. if that doesn't satisfy you we can get real scientific about it..
One final question? How can you build an antique? An antique by it's very name implies age. I know I'm certainly not building an antique, nor are most users of shellac as a floor finish..
Don't feel threatened by shellac, simply because most of your life you removed it the wrong way. You didn't know, as you've said you do one thing and keep on doing it.
Hopefully others will recognize the value of something that has been overlooked and enjoy it.. those who like plastic looking stuff will continue to use polyurthanes.
There will always be a demand for your services, marketing has convinced too many people to use it for it to die out in your life time.. and the labratories will figure out how to make it relatively pollution free. Perhaps not as safe as shellac is but then they don't coat pills with polyurthanes do they?
Well it seems like there is a lot of controversy over the topic. Luckily I have a lot of scrap left over from the install. I will try both scenarios and acually let my daughter try and mess the finishes up (if she can't mess it up, then it can't be messed up). Once I have put the finishes through the rigors, I will make my choice. I am very proud of this staircase and really want to enhance the beauty of the wood with the finish. I will let you know what I discover.
The restorers of fine antiques that I know, use what the items was finished with originally. If you're trying to convince me that shellac is the only old finish, you need to get out more.
As for oak being decay resistant, I could care less if it is or isn't. My point was that red oak is very prone to staining. That's why we use it when ebanizing a piece with vinegar/steel wool, followed by black dye. Heck, some furniture makers ebanize red oak with nothing but vinegar/steel wool.
As luck would have it, in the morning we'll be sanding off the shellac seal coat on our current project and applying our typical polyurethane. After working on the shellac for a month it's pretty scratched up. When I asked the client if they would be interested in a finish that scratches that easy or polyurethane, it was a no-brainer.
Good shellacing
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
IdahoDon
Try the reverse, put a seal coat of polyurthane on that same floor and then do the work and ask him if he'd like that finish or a new one of shellac.
You can sell whatever you want.. go ahead sell polurethane, it will ensure that you have plenty of floors to sand and refinish..
As far as Oak and Tannins I do know that white oak is loaded with tannins and I know that red oak isn't.. That's all I said..
it will ensure that you have plenty of floors to sand and refinish..
About the only upkeep on a polyurethane floor is a quick screening to remove surface contaminents and a maintenance coat of poly every 4 years or so. There's never a need to sand it all off unless it's been abused or the finish has worn through.
On a side note, it's interesting that white oak has more tannins in the wood and less in the acorns. I would have thought the nuts would follow the wood.
Happy holidays
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Idaho Don,
Ditto on shellac. No need to sand it off unless the surface is worn off or the wood needs repair.. For information one of the local mansions which is open to tours uses shellac floors.. Now granted they have carpets on the pathways but the whole house is shellaced (you should see the fabulous carvings in it) it's all quarter sawn white oak and it's spectacular.
And you too have a Merry Christmas and a very happy New Year!
>use it when ebanizing a piece with vinegar/steel wool, followed by black dye. Heck, some furniture makers ebanize red oak with nothing but vinegar/steel wool.>
Hijack alert!!
ID Don
I'm going to be trying to figure out how to do this soon, care to give any advice? Not a whole piano but a music book shelf to match DWs piano.
I'm going to be trying to figure out how to do this soon, care to give any advice?
It's pretty simple and there are variations. Look up ebanizing oak over in Knots and you'll hear a number of various ways from india ink to who knows, but the vinegar/steel wool works well when combined with a black dye.
Buy a gallon of vinegar and stuff two or three pieces of OOOO steel wool in the jug and let it sit at least over night, but a day or two is much better. The stuff I'll be using for a dresser has been sitting for months and works really well.
Then get your oak ready to finish and wet it to raise the grain, let dry and sand till smooth. I use a coat of the vinegar solution to raise the grain, but it probably doesn't matter what you use as long as the sanding isn't skipped.
Then, simply rub the vinegar on with a steel wool pad, let it sit 15 minutes or so and reapply more vinegar. Repeat this a few times until it's at least a very dark purple, and rinse well with clean water. I'm in a dry climate and simply set them in a sunny spot to dry, but it's probably not critical to dry everything quickly.
Then the piece gets a few coats of water based black dye to really make it black black. I like Transtint dyes from Woodcraft, but there are probably others that work as well.
The grain will show through very well.
I'm wondering if the piano isn't just spayed with a thin paint such as a black lacquer. I've also done some pieces with black lacquer, but used the vinegar solution first to minimize the amount of paint needed to get a uniform black color. It seemed to work quite well and is hard to tell from the vinegar/black dye/clear lacquer.
Overall it's a simple technique that many seem to struggle with. If the vinegar isn't used, too often the finish ends up looking like a paint job with very little grain showing through.
Good luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks Don,
This place is awesome!
I was able to pick enough clues out of your 1st post mentioning ebanizing to get some worthwhile searches started on Google.
I had already picked up some transtint at a local ww store. What do you cut it with? Alcohol? Lacquer thinnner? Seems it can be mixed with nearly everything other than mineral spirits.
> If the vinegar isn't used, too often the finish ends up looking like a paint job<
This might be the finish I'm looking for and warrants a few experiments.
What do you cut it with? Alcohol? Lacquer thinnner? Seems it can be mixed with nearly everything other than mineral spirits.
With the large pores of red oak it's best to simply cut it with water. If alcohol is used the fast evaporation from the pores leaves a small ring of dye, which might not matter with a black finish, but the water still allows more time to work with the material. On any other color the dye rings caused by the alcohol really looks bad.
You'll want to wear gloves or it takes two weeks for the fingernails to stop looking like a mechanics.
Happy holidays!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I only know of one finish...polyurethane. I see someone suggested shellac, and while I can't speak to that, I can't figure that to be harder than polyurethane. 3 coats, with light sanding in between. That is what i'm familiar with!!
"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
untreated wood,
Try it yourself, I know it sounds strange but for centures before polyurethane became popular shellac was the finish for floors.. Polyurethane started to be used after WW2 and a lot of advertizing was spent getting it accepted..
On another post someone posted floors that were 70 years old where carpet had etched the shellac. instead of sanding all that was required was soak the floor with denatured alcohol and you can wipe up the old shellac, no sanding required!.
An earlier post asked how to get shellac off a 100 year old floor so the stuff is really tough and durable (same way)
If you try it you'll find that shellac is harder and thus less prone to scratching.. if it should get scratched all you need to do is rub a rag soaked with a little denatured alcohol on the scratch and the scratch disappears..
If something bad happens to the floor wipe up the bad stuff with denatured alcohol and spread three quick coats on, new melts right into the old and makes an invisable repair.
Shellac dries in 15 minutes for the first coat 30 minutes for the second coat and an hour later you can walk on the third coat.. so two hours after you start with shellac you can walk on it! Try that with polurethanes!
I have read about Shellac, but it sounds difficult to prepare. I have a feeling my wife would give me a hard time for boiling up the solution on the kitchen stove. Is there an easy fool prood way to use shellac? I have plenty of test scraps and am willing to play with it.
pauls5923,
Wow! do I have good news for you.. to use you simply open a can of Zinssers and add two cans of denatured alcohol.
Well, you should stir the can for a minute, 45 seconds if you are rushed and 90 seconds if you are anal ;-)
You can buy Zinssers at any big box store, Home Depot etc. typical stairs A quart is too little, a gallon is too much. but it keeps for about a year or so..
I buy the gallon size in the yellow can that says clear. Zinssers bulls eye clear.. Let me tell you how to do it if you aren't the worlds best painter.
mix two gallons of denatured alcohol.. (don't use thinner or anything else) denatured alcohol! to one gallon of shellac.. that gives you a 1 pound cut.. it's like water, well actually water is a little thicker. Sure you can mix a half gallon at a time or whatever..
now for a brush you'll want a nice soft natural bristle brush about 12 feet wide, OK so I exagerate a little but I am serious about a wide brush big 'ol barn paintin' (6 inches wide is about right) brush.. it's important..
Forget Careful! this is all about being fast, if you are afraid of splashing, tape things off (don't worry about your clothes, shellac washes out in the laundry) you have to do the indy 500 of painting here..
Shellac dries faster than you can paint so there are two rules so pay attention.
1.
Go fast. flood it on! tidy doesn't work.
2
never go back over!
If you miss a spot let it go, the next coat will melt right into the first coat and make an invisable repair.. people seem to have trouble keeping a wet edge with shellac because it dries faster than they can paint, so you are going to over thin the shellac and flood it on and the shellac will fix itself and make you a good painter..
This really works, Honest!
Ok 15 minutes after you start the shellac will be dry enough to sand it..
Oop's I should have told you when you bought the shellac buy a 3M sanding sponge.. yellow one for fine work 220 grit. Don't you dare you your hands and a piece of paper!
sanding sponge or sanding block only!
now reach down and feel the shellac, feel all those nubs that were raised? you're going to sand those off.. this is really fast sanding.. real lick and a promise stuff. about a second to a second and a half per sq foot. is all it takes.. Don't try to "fix anything, shellac will melt itself and all your extra effort will be wasted.. just sand off the nubs..
then take a towel and wipe up the white residue, and repeat the first step..
flood it on and fast, never going back over!
that's the second coat, that will take a 1/2 hour to dry.
Double check that you've got all the nubs if any more popped up or you missed some the first time go ahead and sand those spots off (nah, you don't have to redo the whole thing) then wipe up the white residue and give it the third coat. This one will take an hour to dry..
There that's all there is too it.. It's scary if you tend to be a careful painter to just flood it on but that's why it's over thinned..
If you try to be a careful painter you will really have a lot of trouble keeping a wet edge, I know some who can do it but they are darn few and far between..
So far you've got me really intrigued....
What about a floor that already has multiple coats of poly and needs refinishing? Do I have to sand it down to bare wood? Or will shellac stick to poly?
rwjiudice,
I've never tried that but I suspect it wouldn't work..
the reason is that poly is softer than shellac.
I don't know that but that's how I would handle it.. sand to bare wood, and then shellac..
(OH and don't use those drum sanders! Too much skill required and they don't get the burnished look you can get with the vibrators)
I believe gym floors are waxed. Or at least they used to be.
I remember my father waxing the hard wood floors in our home.
Lotta work maintaining that sheen.
For my own home, I used what I use on most every hardwood floor.....oil based polyurethane.
Staircase is holding up fine....with four kids constantly up and down it.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
This has been a good reading thread.
I have always liked making shellac and used it mostly as a sealer. Love the smell of the fresh stuff. But then that is probably alcohol derived! :-)
Also like the tung oil finishes and later, the cross linked water based lacquers. Never been challenged to try to find the best finish for doing stair treads or a floor though.
Don't think I have bought more than a gallon of oil-based poly in my life. Do not like the thick plastic look; appears cheap and elementary do-it-yourself-ish.
Next hoping some finishing guru enlightens us with some results from one of these tests:
http://www.elektrophysikusa.com/default.asp?parent_id=121&is_gallery=0
Edited 12/8/2007 5:02 pm ET by WoodShopGuy