Hello All,
I need some help from those more knowledgeable. I currently am in the process of replacing a patio cover for my elderly parents. The original was built using a shed roof design. The City will not allow this to be redone with the current design. So now I must follow the roof lines of the house. My span is 32 ft from bearing to bearing. I know that a 2×4 Fink Truss will span 28ft but I don’t know if that is max span? So my question.
The pitch will be 3/12, no snowload as this is in Texas. Do I need to upgrade to 2×6 material for the 32ft span?
Also, I know that most splices in the chords are butt joints with plates usually 3×7 for 2×4 construction. but wouldn’t a scarf joint and longer gussett be stronger?????
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you all for help and advice.
Mike K
Replies
When you order the trusses, just tell them what span you want.
The truss company will know all too well how to design and build them.
Thanks Boss,
I'm going to build these myself since I don't have much time and it's only 7 trusses.
I just came from the City Inspectors during lunch. I met with the SR. Engineer and we came to terms on the design and he has issued a permit. Thanks for your response.
MIke K
Almost every time it is priced out a truss company will save you time, money and they come with their own engineering. It is what they do. It is all they do. Makes sense they should be good at it. While likely you will be working in the dirt or, at best on a slab, the truss company has dead flat steel tables with steel pins to hold everything in position so they all come out on spec and the same. Field built units don't sometimes. The production is set up in a warehouse, good conditions are conducive to a good product, and connections are made with a hydraulic unit that presses in the plates in seconds.I hear some, if you coordinate and pay a nominal charge, will come with a crane on the delivery truck. If the truss company doesn't have one they likely can help find one in good time. It is a regular issue. A crane makes setting trusses a lot easier or so I have been told.Do yourself a favor and collect the figures you need and give a truss company a call to see what they can do for you. The reason I know this is that I have been around people who have done, or tried both ways. Every one of them now buys from a truss company. They can build anything you want. For a whole lot less than you can build a set. Even a small number.
4.....As soon as someone comes up with a portable plate press ,I will build my own , probably on the sub floor before the walls. It is plain silly to have truss's 8 weeks out when the design and construction is readly available from an AIA. Put the wood back in the hands of the framer or just panelize the whole house or set up double wides and call your self a builder. When truss companies dictate my schedule it's time to rethink the process do we work for them or do we work for the homeowner.
It might take BossHog a while to respond to this one as he's working his way through an 8 week backlog ;-P
Why use a plate press, weren't trusses originally built onsite with plywood gussets and nails?
Thank you everyone for the input and advice.
I did come to terms with the Sr. City Engineer and have my permit.
I will be building the trusses myself as I don't have time to wait for the 3 to 4 week lead time. I will be using 2x6 for bottom chord and 2x4 for top chord and web. With plywood gussets as recommended by the Engineer. Again many thanks to you all.
Mike K
Hi....M ....Could you help me with the engineers spec's, such as type and thickness of plywood , type of glue if any ( I have had them say glue " squeeze out ) must be visible), type of nails and nailing schedule such as 2in o.c. staggered and size of plywood gusset for 2x4 with 2x6 . Know your busy but sure would appericate any info.
Hi Nails,
I’m following the 3 4 rule for a truss. See attachment for some detail.
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The gussets should be 3/8 bc ply or better for 2x4 construction, 2x6 requires ½ bc ply or better.
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Nailing sequence is 1 ½ in oc ¾ in from edge of 2x4, 2 rows. 2x6 = 1 inch from edge with middle row staggered. Using preferred 4d ringshank on 2x4, 5d or 6d ringshank for 2x6 w/1/2”ply
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Gusset required on both sides of joints. Overlap at joints must be minimum 1 and ½ times width of material,
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example 2x4= 3 1/2”+1 3/4” x2= 10 and ½ inches total for a 5 and ¼ inch overlap at the joint minimum.
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Splices should be overlapped 2times min material width and use butt joints.
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Glue type PL400 or Titebond should have squeeze out.
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Hope that helps. I’m not an Engineer so I’m basing this on the info from the City Engineer.
Mike K
Nails,
One more thing about the joints Here is a pic of the proper cuts.
MK
Mike,Since you don't haver much time and there's only 7 of them why can't you just stick frame it with a ridge and collar ties. It will go a lot faster than building those trusses and then setting them. Just curious.Joe Carola
Hi Joe,
I asked that question also and the City Engineer wanted it to be trusses??? I Think if I had less clear span and he would've but? So! Here I am building trusses. AHH! City Government at its best,, LOL!!!!
Thanks for your questions and suggestions as I am always looking for different ways to skin the cat.
If nothing else, I will have a much better knowledge of trusses and why I will wait for the lead time for them to be ordered. But I can use the exercise also. LOL!!! It's going to be a Hot one again this weekend!!! Whew!!
Thanks again,
Mike K
Mike,That's to bad because it would've taken you a lot less time to stick frame that then to build your own trusses and to get those 32' footers up there. It would've been a great job for trusses if you had the time to order them but you'll have fun building them.Joe Carola
Fun?
Not if he is hand nailing all those gussets
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Drywall screws are better.
LOL, Yeah, the slogan on the bnox says, "If yer gonna screw it up, you should screw it up right!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
One thing about drywall screws is there is a bit that fits them. I hate those deck screws that have a head nothing seems to fit. Square-phillips? I call em squillips head screws. Square drive screws fit the bit tighter, but the bits stick in the screw too much.
I thpought you were joking! No good for the bit to fit if you are using non-structural srews for a very structural purpose. The shear stresses would break half of them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was joking, should have called them piffin screws! No piffin screws on trusses! Still don't like the squillips heads.
Be screwy.
Have you ever used the deckmate deck screws from HD? The driver fits the screws very well.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I usually avoid HD, but I will try the deckmates out.
Drywall screws snap with a cordless drill. You want to be under a truss roof with plates drywall screwed?
Boss is going to blow a gasket!
Have a good day
Cliffy
I think you have been baited...
I realized that too after I read the whole works. But I still think Boss is going to blow a gasket when he sees that comment!
Have a good day
Cliffy
Boss has a lot of gaskets and a good sense of humor...
"Boss has a lot of gaskets and a good sense of humor..."
Actually, Boss has had enough of this subject and plans to stay out of it.
I was engaged to a girl with a wooden leg once. But we broke it off.
LOL, Sounds like a leaky gasket to me
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can get something for that leaky gasket at your neighbourhood pharmacy!
Have a good day.
Cliffy
"Actually, Boss has had enough of this subject and plans to stay out of it"
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Boss, I want you to know that I read your post from an earlier thread on this subject http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=21664.1 and understand your position. I appreciate your knowledge and thoughts on this matter. So if I appeared to be flippent above that was not my intent. Unfortunately I am in the position of building these things and if all goes well and the creek don't rise. I guess you know what I mean. I at least am doing this with the blessing and instructions from the City Engineer for whatever that's worth.
Thanks again, Boss and everyone else.
MK
Edited 7/10/2005 10:39 pm ET by MiKro
Edited 7/11/2005 12:36 pm ET by MiKro
Hi All,
Wanted to show the progress on the Patio cover.
Boss I will listen from now on, I promise to buy my trusses not build them. Actually it was not that bad. :))
Just finished the roof yesterday.
I got slowed down in the process due to an unexpected stay in the Hospital (3weeks). But that's another story. Thanks for looking.
MikeK
I saw a few things that I would have done different and one that I would do something about. Anyone else see it?<!----><!---->
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The finished product is going to look good though. Take your time, there’s no reason to rush it now that your dried in.
Mr J,
Please tell me?????? What am I missing??? I know it's right there in front of me. Damn I just can't see it LOL:))). I'm okay with criticism. I appreciate the input to make it better.
Thank you also for the for the kind words.I'm really thankful that it is dried in and now down to the finish work.
Now I can slow down and look at things. was very concerned about rain on those gussets.
again thanks
Mike KPS. if you are seeing the post that appears to be bowed I have already attended to that. My Nephew did not nail it properly and it has been replaced today.
Edited 8/24/2005 7:45 pm ET by MiKro
MiKro,
<!----><!---->
I don’t specialize in truss building for a living so I can’t say that you have a problem for sure. But! In the pic of the trusses, #2, the bottom 2/6 cords appears to have a plywood gusset that is the same height as the cord and about 20” long over a but-joint splice. This may break at this point, but it may not. It is a weak spot in your truss construction in my opinion. I would have placed a 2/6 x 24” block on top of the splice and put a larger gusset (11” x 24”) over the splice and block. Or you could have nailed and glued a longer block directly over the splice. The joint is made even weaker by the direction that the grain of the plywood is cut. You could reinforce the splice in a number of ways; screw metal straps to the top of the cord or nails 2/ blocks to the sides are two ways. If you use a hammer and nails be careful not to break the gusset. Back up your hammer blows with weight to keep from shattering the existing gusset. Good luck.
Mr. J,
According to the engineer (The City Engineer), He implyed (in writing) the splice joint as you see. The gussetts at the splices are 24in and the width of the chord ,Glued and nailed and also inspected as of 2 days ago. 1/2in. ply which he suggested be 3/8 and using 2x4s, or use a metal 5x7 plate on both sides, I feel I have over built this at this point and he also said I wasted $$$ on material by using 2x6s, I personaly don't see it that way, but probly so. I appreciate your concern and I will revisit your suggestion with some scrunity and reassess the area. Thank you for your concerns again.
Sincerely,
Mike K
Mike K,
<!----><!---->
Over Kill is OK. (get it?) I agree with the 2/6-bottom cord over kill. Not that big of a deal on waste either. The 2/4 laterals under the deck wasn’t needed, that is total waste in my mind, but it works, so, so what? Around here truss have to be built by a truss plant with approved installation documentation on site for inspection. I have built many trusses similar to yours. If the grain on those joints were the other direction I probably would not have said anything and as it turns out, if they survived installation then they probably will last forever. If that were your first project of this type I’d say you did very well. The soffit material will add additional structural strength to the form too. If you are using a Fiber Cement soffit material I would suggest doubling up the nailers at the joints so you can place the nails a little bit further back from the edge of the but joints. It is often easier to bat/cover the splice with 1x2 also.
Have fun, so far looking good.
Mr J,I get it LOL:)), and if this was a house instead of a cover they (the city) would have required engineered trusses as well. As such they designed these for me. Yes this is my first time building trusses and I will say, most likely my last. I would much rather stick frame it. I greatly appreciate the input from everyone as I always learn something from everyone here. The wealth of knowledge here is great and I hope that I also am able to contribute to someones knowledge as time goes on.You mentioned the 2x4 laterals, these allowed for an easier method of barge rafter attachment and more nailing surface for the deck was my thought process.
Again thanks, I'll post more after the finish work begins.
Mike K
Edited 8/25/2005 11:44 am ET by MiKro
View Image
Hi, Mike. I just ran across this thread and found it interesting. But I have a question on this view: What is the purpose of that 'ladder' on the inside of the gable sheathing? I hope it's not supposed to be structural....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Hi Dino,
No it's not structural, Just a way of dropping the front down to the beam lower edge for a more finished look when the ceiling goes in. My nephew built it and was a little on overkill on the cripples. Only needed 24oc but as you can see LOL:))) Thanks,
Mikeone more thing, my nephew also understands that 1/16 of an inch does make a difference in 16ft. LOL:))) He's becoming quite adapt at making good accurate cuts. He is becoming quite a good helper for me.
Edited 8/25/2005 11:25 am ET by MiKro
Actually, it looks to me like the sheathing is holding up the framing there, and not vice-versa....
Well, your gable-end truss is what's actually holding up the whole gable wall, sheathing, nephew-ladder and all. Surprising (to me, anyway) that the city engineer didn't specify a doubled truss for the gable end, as they often do here. Possibly because you have no snow loads....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino,
It's sorta both LOL:)) the framing is attached to the bottom chord also.
And as far as the doubled truss the city engineer said what you said. He mentioned that we did not need to figure in snow loads.
MK
Well, being as you can always retro-fit another post midway on that span if it starts to sag, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But obviously that end truss is holding up more dead load than the others.
OTOH, if the gable-wall sheathing is structural (ie: plywood) that will stiffen the end truss quite a bit in itself.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
" OTOH, if the gable-wall sheathing is structural (ie: plywood) that will stiffen the end truss quite a bit in itself. "No I used 1/2in OSB. :(
Thanks
MK
Well, OSB ain't much, but it's better than Black Joe.
I'm not too worried for you; you have demonstrated enough competence to keep an informed eye on things and react intelligently if anything doesn't work out as planned.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino,"Well, OSB ain't much, but it's better than Black Joe." I agree" I'm not too worried for you; you have demonstrated enough competence to keep an informed eye on things and react intelligently if anything doesn't work out as planned."Thank you for the support and knowledge.This project turned out to be much more than I expected. I've learned alot and know that as a one man crew so to speak, other than my nephews help, one good Marine for some extra backbone, and a good roofing crew I use this would've put me under LOL:). I would not do this again. I'm used to building pergolas, arbors and such. So I view this experience with a lot of satisfaction and also the knowledge that there is still alot to learn. Thank you for all of your input as well as others. It is greatly appreciated and taken with gratitude.BTW, this is one of the pergolas/arbors I built earlier this summer. More to my liking as far as my side work goes.Sincerely,
Mike K
Nice lookin' skip sheathing, there. What kinda shingles you gonna put on? ;-)>
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Thanks Dino!!!! :)))
This is Texas some like it HOT!!!! even if there is no breeze. LOL:)))
mk
So that explains the fans! LOL!
BTW, nice touch putting the little cupola over the fan motors. I'll remember that one.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino,
I kinda of liked that touch also, the city where this was built required the fans be under a covered area.
Thanks again,
Mike K
Oh, yeah, LOL! I can just imagine how those fans would like gittin' rained on....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
THERE WILL BE NO hand nailin here, using my Paslode350 with rdhd 2" ringshank on this one. LOL!!!!! I think it will suffice? Figure I need a gallon of titebond or similar and a good brush!!! and plenty of plastic on the patio to keep the glue off the concrete. Cut my gussetts at 12" square and move on.
Thanks for the support LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MK
Mike,Didn't you say that you had to match the existing house rafters?If so I would strip the gable end of the house enough to expose the existing top rafters and snap a line from top plate to top plate of the new 32' walls and use that line as the bottom chord of your truss and then build the first truss right on that wall. Open up the top of the existing rafters so that you can get the top of the truss perfectly even with the top of the existing rafters.Do that from the top plate all the way up to the existing ridge. Using the existing house rafters gives you an exact pattern for the truss. It will keep everything at the proper height and especially at the plate line for your H.A.P. cut (Height Above Plate) or some people call it a Heel Stand.Once you have that truss built enough you can take it down and if you can get a nice flat surface you can lay the truss down and make a jig around that truss on the ground and use that to make the rest of your trusses. I hope I'm making any sense to you. I built a shed about 15 years ago by myself with a gambrel roof and I made a jig on the deck and precut all my piece and laid them down and nailed them together with gussets and it worked out perfect.Just a few thoughts here. Joe Carola
Hi Joe,
Thought about that as a matter of fact, unfortunately there is a chimney in the middle. So the first truss will be starting at the chimney. I'll use ledgers at the wall of the house to attach the roof deck and the finished ceiling. Never easy when you want it to be LOL!!!!!!! But thanks for the thought. I'm having more problems with the Piers for the posts since I found that the old pool was not removed properly. That's another story in its self LOL!!!! I won't go there. My Dad wants the posts set outside of the actual patio slab,(wapita).
I'm pouring 12" sq. 2ft deep, 8" or better( depending on slope) above grade piers for the posts. These will be faced with flagstone then build above that. I went from (shed roof, fibreglass on rotten redwood with 5 posts on 7ft centers all rotten to this). Well you know how it is, they are my parents so I guess they get what they want. They put up with my sorry a$$ so !!!!!!!! LOL!!! Here I am.
Thanks again
MikeEdited 7/8/2005 11:38 pm ET by MiKro
Edited 7/8/2005 11:40 pm ET by MiKro
That'll do
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Framer!
I look forward to the build LOL (not)!!!!! Actually not really worried. I'll try and get Pics along the way and see how this really turns out.Thanks again,
MK
Edited 7/8/2005 10:20 pm ET by MiKro
Mike,
Sorry if this is a dumb question but your doing this because it's a 32' clear span with no partion right?
That is correct Joe.
MK