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Fire stopping Question???

loucarabasi | Posted in General Discussion on April 23, 2008 12:47pm

We do many finished basements and we have this dilemma all the time. One township that is a stickler on fire stop (which is ok if needed). On the other hand another township says I do not need it at all becouse we are using metal studs-which we all know is non- combustible. Now we do use wood studs with the metal studs( ie: doors, outside corners). Whats the deal? the BI says he has lunch with these other BI’s and they have this discussion all the time and says they are clearly wrong!!! So whats the deal on the code? Talking about perimeter walls that are alongside the fondation.

-Lou C

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  1. Piffin | Apr 23, 2008 01:30pm | #1

    Fire stopping has almost nothing to do with the stud material.

    A stud cavity or other vertical channel created by the framing creates a chimney effect of air flow in a fire situation. The moving air fans a flame and spreads the smoke through the structure far faster. Fire blocking chokes things down, slows fire spread and gives occupants enough time to escape alive

     

     

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    1. draftingguy | Apr 23, 2008 07:25pm | #3

      While I agree that from a practical standpoint, fire stopping/fire blocking is a good idea in all situations, the building department shouldn't be requiring it when metal studs are being used (unless there are other combustibles present).

       

      IBC 717.2

      In combustible construction, fireblocking shall be installed to cut off concealed draft openings (both vertical and horizontal) and shall form an effective barrier between floors, between a top story and a roof or attic space. Fireblocking shall be installed in the locations specified in Sections 717.2.2 through 717.2.7.

       

      IRC 602.8

      ...Fire blocking shall be provided in wood-frame construction in the following locations...

      1. User avater
        CapnMac | Apr 23, 2008 09:46pm | #4

        IBC 717.2

        IRC 602.8

        Of course, a stud bay 95% full of insulation could "said" to no longer meet the definition of a "concealed draft' space.  IRC is at least specific in defining it by the framing material used.

        Now, with galvanized, I've always just used scrap channel for the fireblocking.  It's middling fast and not quite as fussy as using wood, and you almost never get a BI with a raised eyebrow about "combustible" fire blocking (not 3-hour lease seperation walls, IOW).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

      2. ruffmike | Apr 25, 2008 06:19am | #5

        I think in Lou's case the inspector is looking for a draftstop between the dead area behind the wall and into the floor joists above. A perfect use for themafiber or rockwool to be friction fitted.

         This is hybrid framing, not all metal, so it is wood framed construction                            Mike

            Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.

    2. Jim_Allen | Apr 26, 2008 05:00am | #7

      I agree.I'm going to guess that 90% of the framers and inspectors do not realize that they are really installing draftstopping blocks. They are called firestop blocks but that's an incorrect term. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

    3. User avater
      loucarabasi | Apr 26, 2008 12:27pm | #8

      Thank you fellas for the insite. Very helpfull a s usuall.

       

      -Lou

  2. User avater
    Matt | Apr 23, 2008 02:29pm | #2

    I don't do metal studs but here is my take:

    The basic concept for firestopping is to separate adjacent assemblies.  Floors must be separated from walls and walls must be separated from ceilings.  Attics must be separate too.

    So, if the plumber puts 2.5" hole in a sole plate to run a 1.5" pipe from the floor system below up to a wall fixture (lavatory) and then up through the double top plate for the vent which then goes through the attic and then out the roof, fire now has a path to quickly traverse from the floor system, to the wall and then up to the attic.  These holes must be firestopped to prevent the rapid spread of fire. See attached pic.

    In the case of basement finishing, this would mostly pertain to separating the walls from the basement ceiling.  This would most often involve things like overhead soffits for ducts and perhaps plumbing and around wire penetration too.  Fireblocking (a slightly different term) is also required around stairs at the stair rake (at least in all jurisdictions near here).

    So, basically I agree with Piffin.  It's not the material but more just blocking that path of fire from spreading as quickly through the home.

    As far as what "the code is" you need to hear from someone who has the NJ building code book for residential.  If I remember correctly, NJ uses a state modified IECC 2006.  For all I know, there might be a rehab code in place too.

    1. VTNorm | Apr 26, 2008 03:13pm | #9

      Lucky you, Matt, getting to use the foam. I just had to remove a ton of that stuff and replace it with high heat mortar caulking. Talk about fun.

      -Norm

       

      1. User avater
        Matt | Apr 27, 2008 11:56pm | #10

        I don't know what "high heat mortar caulking" is.  I believe the high heat caulk we get is silicone based.

        That red foam is fire rated.  It has an ASTM rating or similar.  In most cases we can't use the regular Great Stuff type of foam for this application.  Also, with the new residential building code we just got (based on IRC 2006) we can't use rock wool or fiberglass for any fire stopping.  So it is either fire rated foam or fire rated caulk.  The preference seems to be fire rated foam as the fire rated caulk is pretty darn expensive (at ~$14 for a 10oz tube) - not that the foam is inexpensive.  Also, the caulk can't be used for places, say like maybe where the plumber hot "hole happy" under the tub...  In your case you might need to cut a piece of sheet metal, 3/4" plywood, or whatever to cover that... Plus, the foam is not so dependant on the person doing the "installation", and personally I am as interested in it for it's draft-stopping ability as much as anything. 

        Sometimes half the battle is knowing what is acceptable by the AHJ you are dealing with.  Really though, if they won't accept a properly ASTM rated product, they might need some education. 

        1. VTNorm | Apr 28, 2008 12:13am | #11

          This is it: http://doitbest.com/Caulking+for+bathtubs+and+caulking+guns-Dap-model-18854-doitbest-sku-780397.dib

          Stupid me tried to interpret the MA state code and thought I had it covered with the fire rated foam but the local inspector had his own read on it and said no dice. I used the stuff above - with his prior approval - and all is well again. The E136 rating is specifically what he was looking for...although he couldn't tell me specifically why or how it differed from the other fire rated materials.

          -Norm

           

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Apr 28, 2008 02:35am | #13

            E136 is a test for combustability."Standard Test Method for Behavior of Materials in a Vertical Tube Furnace at 750oC1.1 This fire-test-response standard covers the determination under specified laboratory conditions of combustion characteristics of building materials. It is not intended to apply to laminated or coated materials.1.2 This test method references notes and footnotes that provide explanatory information. These notes and footnotes, excluding those in tables and figures, shall not be considered as requirements of this test method.1.3 The values stated in SI units are to be regarded as the standard. The values given in parentheses are for information only.1.4 This standard is used to measure and describe the response of materials, products, or assemblies to heat and flame under controlled conditions, but does not by itself incorporate all factors required for fire-hazard or fire-risk assessment of the materials, products, or assemblies under actual fire conditions.1.5 This standard does not purport to address all of the safety concerns, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use. "But that is not the only standard.This discussion fire rated foam.http://www.fomo.com/powerpoint/Understanding-Fireblock.pdf"Fomo Products, Inc. has worked closely with The International Code Council
            Evaluation Service (ICC-ES) to evaluate Handi-Foam Fireblock Foam as an approved
            material for fireblock applications.ü£ ASTM E 814 (modified without a hose stream test) is designated by ICC-ES for largescale
            comparative testing of polyurethane foam and other prescribed fireblock
            materials.ü£ ASTM E 814 is a large scale composite assembly fire test
            ü£ This test, which has traditionally been used for ügfirestopüh
            materials, tests the foam sealant using actual penetrations and
            substrates to simulate application conditions
            ü£ ASTM E 136 is a small scale material test
            ü£ This test rates a material for itüfs combustion properties, and
            there is no possibility for simulated building assembly
            ü£ Additionally, Handi-Foam Fireblock is classified by
            Underwriters Laboratories according to ASTM E 84 for
            Caulking and Sealants
            ü£ This test rates various combustible building materials according
            to ügFlame Spreadüh and ügSmoke Developmentüh, and is further
            evidence of Fomo Productsüf commitment to safety, consistency
            and product quality
            ASTM E 814 vs. ASTM E 136 vs. ASTM E 84ü£ ASTM E 814 is a large scale composite assembly fire test
            ü£ This test, which has traditionally been used for ügfirestopüh
            materials, tests the foam sealant using actual penetrations and
            substrates to simulate application conditions
            ü£ ASTM E 136 is a small scale material test
            ü£ This test rates a material for itüfs combustion properties, and
            there is no possibility for simulated building assembly
            ü£ Additionally, Handi-Foam Fireblock is classified by
            Underwriters Laboratories according to ASTM E 84 for
            Caulking and Sealants
            ü£ This test rates various combustible building materials according
            to ügFlame Spreadüh and ügSmoke Developmentüh, and is further
            evidence of Fomo Productsüf commitment to safety, consistency
            and product quality
            ASTM E 814 vs. ASTM E 136 vs. ASTM E 84ü£ Prescriptive Materials
            ü£ These include, for example, dimensional lumber, wood structural
            panels, gypsum board, mineral wool or fiberglass
            ü£ ügNon-combustibleüh products tested to ASTM E 136
            ü£ Primarily gunnable tube-type caulks
            ü£ Approved alternate materials
            ü£ Such as Handi-Foam Fireblock polyurethane foam, evaluated by
            ICC-ES and tested according to ASTM E 814 (modified)
            Summary of commercial techniques utilized for
            fireblock sealing;"And this says that DW is combustable, but can still be used as a fireblock.http://www.rumford.com/drywall.html.
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          2. User avater
            Matt | Apr 28, 2008 05:50am | #14

            Hummm...  that's pretty interesting.  I went and did a little research.  First, In our code it does not specifically reference the ASTM E-136 standard (or any standard) or at least not in R602.8 where wall  fireblocking is addressed...  Secondly that caulk you linked to is pretty cheap, and I believe I have seen it for sale in local stores.  I'll have to check with some of my local BIs to see if they will accept it.

  3. brucemesa | Apr 25, 2008 04:05pm | #6

    I'm with Piffin and Matt for sure. 

    Firestop and draftstop is for slowing the MOVEMENT of a fire.  What the construction material happens to be is irrelevant.  You could have your basement full of oily rags and cardboard boxes.  The firestop is to slow the progression by at least temporarily denying pathways for all those hot gases to travel throughout the structure.

    What struck me is that in the original post the BUILDING INSPECTORS were unclear on this basic idea.  Kinda scary.

  4. Shep | Apr 28, 2008 01:03am | #12

    lou-

    when I do a basement, I run a strip of sheetrock on the ceiling, the width of the framing plus the gap to the foundation wall. Seal the SR to the foundation with some FR caulk, and then frame as usual. Just make the screws for the top plate a little longer.

    I find this way to be pretty quick, and simple, and most importantly, satisfies the BI.

  5. robert | Apr 28, 2008 09:28am | #15

    lou,

     As Piffin and I think Matt pointed out, it's not so much "Firestopping" as it is "Draftstopping". Regardless of the combustability of the material, the intent is to stop the draft spread of fire.

    You got a few links and qoutes from the code too.

    Problem is? You're in New Jersey.

    I've in the past worked in Hunterdon, Warren, Somerset, Union, Bergan and Morris counties as well as all over south Jersey.

    What I learned is that New Jersey is a collection of little kingdoms and while the B.I's might not always be the King, they are right there at his side.

    If the B.I is all jacked up? You can call the state and if your right they will over ride him. Problem is? Ya know yer gonna have to work with him again.

    It's easier to just ask the guy what HE wants and plan for it in your timeline and price.

    I personally like Sheps Idea so long as the BI is ok with it. We used to use plywood instead of drywall, but same principle

  6. JeffinPA | Apr 28, 2008 02:14pm | #16

    Not to sound like a jerk but the only way to have a constructive arguement with a Code official is to buy the code book for your area and read the section till you completely understand it.  If you are not clear on it, there is a supplement to most codes that spell the stuff out real clear.  Some code officials buy the supplement and will allow you to look at it and even copy a few pages.  (some wont)

     

    good luck

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