Hi there,
I’ve been working for a custom homebuilder for 5 years now, and have just gone out on my own. Plans for a very nice, multi-tiered deck with screened in tea house and hot tub with pergola landed on my desk a few days ago. I’m very excited about the project, but trying to figure out an accurate estimate is proving to be rather difficult. I’m having the most trouble trying to calculate labour. Any tips on how to get started?
thanks,
jake
Learn how the pros keep their hand tools sharp without breaking the bank.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
re: labor to build deck
break it down into manageable units
don't forget to include setup and cleanup time
multiply man/hrs. times $50 or whatever cost you need to stay in business ($50 is pretty basic minimum for most service type businesses)
then play with some square foot costs, just as a double check
i.e., labor to build $10/sq.ft. (or whatever sq. ft. price you think the complexity merits) times square feet of decking, see how that correlates with your man/hrs. estimate.
Thanks,I guess my main issue is that when I was working for the contractor I wasn't paying enough attention to how long each individual process took. For example, how long does it really take to dig an 18" dia. hole, 4 feet deep for concrete pier and footing? I'm finding I'm guessing on too many of the separate tasks. On a job of this scale, guessing can add up to a pretty big mess.
welcome to my world
all contractors go through this
the fun part is spending untold hours studying plans, building this thing in your mind, getting prices, working numbers, and then you submit a bid and they have their brother-in-law build it for 10 percent less, using your numbers. contracting - gotta love it
View Image
how long does it really take to dig an 18" dia. hole, 4 feet deep for concrete pier and footing?
by hand, with a post-hole digger and a shovel? or with one of these babies?...View ImageView Image
That CAN'T be a city job...There's two guys working with shovels....
No, its the SAME guy - in three places (time-lapse photography), and he's not working, he's POSING! Cant you tell by the spotless clothes?View Image
Re. one of those babies.
Huck.
Were you on this job? Is the drill operator going to set the auger over the dump truck and spin the spoils right into the bed of the truck?
Kind of looks like somebody is thinking that way.
BTW where do i get one of these!!
Yes, I'm the one in the Levi shorts and the orange shirt.
You get them at Auger's R Us, also can be special ordered from Home Depot.
--------------
just kiddingView Image
For my neighbor's deck we found the local lumber yard had these pre made.
We had a backhoe coming in to remove hedges and level an area as well as remove a stump, so while he was there we had him dig and plunk these into the ground. We were building the deck that afternoon.
how long does it really take to dig an 18" dia. hole, 4 feet deep for concrete pier and footing?
Depends on how many 19" dia rocks and 8" dia roots you find in your hole... right?
One track is to include caveats for unforseen issues inyour bid. Hourly rates for dealing with submerged objects not anticipated.
I have had good success with 'high/low' bid numbers too. Clients very happy when you come in on the low end of your bid. Save your butt if you need to come in high.
Pat
I know your dilemna. My suggestion is as suggested, build it in your head, then put it down on paper. Dont forget the tangents like set up and break down, clean up, tool repair, site organization, etc. I would then take your numbers and increase it by some fudge factor ( 1.25x, 1.5x, 2x) to be safe.
The problem that I run into is that I build it in my head under optimal times, and THAT NEVER HAPPENS TO ME IN THE REAL WORLD!!! My father ( who taught small business production manangement) suggested 2x. So far, thats been pretty close for my build it in my head times vs my real world times.
Could you give the clients an estimate but then do the job on a time and materials contract, keeping the clients up to date on how things are progessing on the job?
I basically do it like you do. I try to think of it as days not hours. how many days to set posts, how many days to set joists
Yep - 2x was what I found worked for me - to break even! Guess I'm a pretty optimistic guy - LOL. 3x and I'd actually make a little profit. Course that was decades ago, I was pretty clueless (but didn't know it) and there weren't the kinds of resources like we have today to get better educated.
thanks guys,I'm definitely asking the clients to do time and materials. I'm reading Dave Guertsel's 'Running a Successful Construction Company' right now and he has me kind of freaked out.
Why? What is Guerstel's philosophy?
jcaldwell
How about an update on your "1st big estimate"?
After so much input I'm sure the guys would like to know how you came out.
Rich
Thank you to everyone for all the input!The clients decided to go with me. When I handed in the estimate I was sure the clients would be overwhelmed with the cost (it came in at just under $60,000). They said they were prepared for around that much, and were excited to get started.Things took a little time to get through the building dept., but the layout's done and excavation is beginning today.Everyone's input was really helpful. When doing the estimate I used a couple different methods to see if I was coming up with similar numbers. Each time I came in at about the same price, so I had a sense that I was on the right track.Now the fun begins...building itthanks againjake
jake
If you don't mind, keep us updated with the good and the bad.
That is how we/you learn.
Besides we all like to go to car races to see the victor get the checkered flag and for the car wrecks. :)
They don't call it rubber necking for nothing.
Rich
Deck has 35 piers, all with 2' big foots (feet?) on the bottom. Excavator was out today. 2' diameter auger kept hitting 'the hardest earth he's ever seen' at about 3'. Code says we have to go down 4' in these parts. The last 1' on every hole TOOK FOREVER! 7 am to 5 pm and still 12 holes to go. I put in a fair bit of 'fudge' for excavation (as per many recommendations), so I think we'll still be on track when all is said and done. There's a hell of a lot of earth on site. Took away a dump truck full already. Probably leave the rest for backfill...that's all for now. See what the client has to say when they see their torn up yard...jake
jake
Thanks for the update. sounds like tough going to start the job.
35 peirs. It must be a pretty big deck. Maybe you mentioned earlier the size but I forget.
Rich
you saying you double your man hours to be safe or am I reading that wrong?
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
I was suggesting to put in a safety factor . When I first started estimating if I had doubled my estimated time I would have actually been close to what the real times where. I was overly optimistic in estimating the time it would take to do jobs.
Even now I multiply my estimated time by a factor to get a 'real world' number. Im still optimistic in my time estimates. It also helps to cover those unpredictables ( circuit keeps blowing, tool breaks, etc.).
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
I do hear whatcha saying but doubling your time? and I'm not putting it down..at all cuz I know whatcha mean for sure but when I start in doing things that way...which I have,,,I feel as though I REALLY don't know what I'm doing. It makes me feel really incompetent.
I also agree with who ever said not to start shaving our numbers down b/c they seem too high. I'd been famous for that and I need to watch out. No way will I EVER do that again. That was one of my biggest mistakes!!.
after 32 years doing this you'd think I'd know how long something takes but I'm usually wrong unless it's a small job....and even then. And now I'm figuring a reno that will go for well over half a million bucks...ohhhhhh boy. At this point I'm gonna try and make this THE landmark job and try and stop making all those mistakes.
If I have to keep dbling my numbers I may as well pick a number out of the sky. I think I just need to use a markup number that is reasonable which I'm thinking is somewhere between 40-60% on my subs,,,and my own labor. On materials I'm still not sure. I'm thinking about 20% including the taxes.I also find that working alone screws you up....A LOT! I've come to the conclusion that one man equal 1/2 a man and two guys equal three if ou have decent help and ou run your crew appropriatly even if it;s only one other person. thing is you need enough work to keep someone gainfully employed.I'm thinking on this job I may need three guys. Two good carps and a good apprentice/helper(and all my subs). If I land this big job which so far looks real good I think...as long as I get all my subs lined up properly and their numbers are reasonable....(another dilemma) I should be OK but this is a bit nerve racking for me. Be nice if I had a partner. this is a lot for one guy to deal with alone....at least thats how I'm feeling. I'm not even thinking about putting on my tool belt!!! Not much anyway...lol.   http://www.cliffordrenovations.comhttp://www.ramdass.orgÂ
Edited 6/29/2009 12:50 am ET by andybuildz
"this is a lot for one guy to deal with alone....at least thats how I'm feeling."A 500k reno IS A LOT for one guy, or two partners or ANYONE! Therein lies your golden nugget. Think about what type of company or trademan would actually bid this job. Are the "one man shows" going to bid it? I doubt it. Are the inexperienced going to jump on this? I doubt it. Is the buyer going to shop for the lowest bidder and ignore qualifications? I doubt it. Okay...who's left? My guess would be that only smart people, those that understand their costs and understand profit and loss, will be bidding. So, bid accordingly or set up a proposal that guarantees a profit. You don't have to give away 500k renovations!
Jim
My sentiments exactly. Everything you said. And like I said..it's a bit nerve racking for me but I'm not taking on ANY other jobs no mattter how small while I figure this out and I'm expecting it to take me a good two weeks++ to figure once I finish up that timber frame garden room for my last customer which should be within another cpl of days. Perfect timing really b/c I don't think these people will be ready till the end of July to get started. I also had them give me a grand that I said would go towards the last payment if they use me. No way am I going through all this for a tire kicker. A grand certainly won't pay for all my time but it does show they're very serious about using me I'd think. One of my main concerns is that my subs prices are in line...mainly my framer b/c I think thats the biggest number from the subs. I do have a name of another framer that my archy gave me who he considers very good. I may get a second price from him. One good thing about the framer I've used in the past is he also has on staff a mason crew being they do a lot of commercial work as well to do the foundation work and stone work (separate price of course). Once I have all the trades numbers in I need to figure what "my" guys will be taking on. Probably trim and siding and some of the minor demo. Possibly rip all the rock from the house being I'm gutting it in it's entirety (the rock).
Another concern is getting an appropriate contract for them to sign and a payment schedule. I may need an attorney to help me draw up the right contract. That JLC book on making contracts has been fine for me for smaller jobs but I'm not comfortable using it for this one.
It's real slow in this neck of the woods. My phone next to never rings and I see very little construction going on so it's not like there's even a choice for me if I wanna keep paying my very high mortgage. The biggest negative for me is tying myself up on one job for a year or longer but even worst is no work for a year or longer so....I WILL be sure not to underestimate because this is too big to run out of money towards the end. I need to play it VERY safe $$$......so we shall see.....gulp.
Talk soon   http://www.cliffordrenovations.comhttp://www.ramdass.orgÂ
Edited 6/29/2009 8:38 am ET by andybuildz
I think your biggest challenge will be defining the scope. I don't envy you.
I think your biggest challenge will be defining the scope<<<
The scope???My plan which I've already told my potential customer is to break the job down into 2-3 separate contracts so it's not so overwhelming for me...or them. It gives them a little time to figure out exactly what fixtures and trim etc etc they will chose as it takes shape. I did explain to them I do need to know certain things beforehand such as if they chose to use real wainscoting anywhere so i can frame the walls accordingly or crown moldings and the such.
Also where kitchen fixtures will go so we know how to wire and plumb,,,same with the bathrooms.i figure the first contract will be for the demo, concrete, framing,insul, siding, rough plumbing and electrical, drywall, windows, siding/roofing.Attaching a pdf of what it'll look like from the plan but I don't know how to shrink a pdf down so it may not work for you being its 4MB
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
One of the big items to double check is your material takeoff. If you are not using an exel program that automatically extends multiples be sure you look at the extensions.I goofed on shingle quantity one time.
Price per sq = $60, Units needed = 11, Total = $660What I did:
Price per sq = $60, Units needed - 11, Total - $60See where you can get hurt when that is buried among all the other items in the takeoff?
The numbers I'm figuring now are all subs prices. I started getting into Excel but one of the reasons I keep going back to my yellow legal pad ir just b/c of that. I can see exactly the numbers I'm adding. I KNOW it's a reallong way to do things but I just think with the real big numbers I'm adding and multiplying I'd rather see the mechanics right in front of me even if it takes twice as long to do. Although I do like the program Mike turned me on to which I may use "after" I do the math just to keep everything organized.
http://www.superbuild.com/pricing.aspx?partner=andersen&CC=remI'm afraid of just one goof like you made b/c a lot of my numbers are thousands upon thousands of dollars. For me one of the more difficult parts is to be sure the subs figured everything in and that I'm not leaving anything out being there's soooooo much to think about. I know just from small jobs how much we forget or miscalculate.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Andy, use excel to set up your line items. It's your list of everything you're going to do. Try to list in sequence, but don't worry, with excel it's easy to move stuff.If you want, I'll send you mine, for new construction, but it might help.And, don't throw away your yellow pads, it's the way I work, too... but, I can't always find 'em, excel stays on the computer, not under the truck seat LOLhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Yeh...was saying in that program /Mike turned me onto I thought to organize everything in there once I have each item figured out but also adding it to an Excel program can't hurt.
I'm such the paranoid that I print all these things out after I have something substantial in fear of my puter ever crashing in the middle of it all. Horrors...lol.
Sure...that'd be cool if you wanted to send me what you use so I can take a look-see.
Mucho thanxo....you have my email addy
[email protected]
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
In addition to what the others have said, do not fall into the trap of looking at your final number and thinking that is too much. If you have diligently worked through the process, the final number is what it is.
I use to see the final number on my spreadsheets and just try to find ways to start cutting because I felt the number was too high. I can tell you I have never made too much money on project and have lost some on a few. Your costs are what they are-do not try to make them what you think they should be.
Best of luck
Bruce
Yes: get subcontractor quotes for every phase of the operation, including those that you think you are going to handle in house. You might end up using subs for everything when you study the final numbers (40% gross profit markup).
jake
Like most of the guys said break the job down into managable pieces and assign a number of hours to it.
If this is your 1st big estimate then I would definetly double your labor estimate. Even those of us who have been doing this for years are optimistic.
Include the time it takes you to do the estimate, order the materials, bill the HO, set up and clean up each day.
I sometimes use National Estimator to double check myself. I did one for this deck. All numbers are for 1 SF of deck or each for 1 post on the pergola. Again I would mark up these number by 50-100%.
I also attached an excel worksheet I use for figuring decks. You can copy and paste it tp a blank sheet for your own use or I can e-mail it to you. You can change the markup on materials, labor or taxes by changing the number in the yellow cells.
I usually write my estimates with Materials, Labor and then the Total.
Rich
Jake: All great advice above so I won't add to that.
One thing I will say, being as how it's your first job and you're just starting out, if you do screw up, under bid the thing and get the job, a big benifit of that is you'll have a project of your own to show the next guy and hopefully a satisfied customer as a reference.
Nothing worse then underestimating a job when one already has a cartload of completed projects and happy references.
The best of luck and keep us posted as to how it goes.
runner.... if he "underbids" it....where does he get the money to finish the job ?
if he bids ...say....$50K.... but it costs $70K.... where does he come up with the $20K ?
i know a remodeler who had a nice operation... he was one of Remodeling Magazine's top 50 one year.... he got into a contract with an unscrupulous lawyer... she cleaned his clock for $200K
he sold all his assets to finish the job
risk = reward
it's important that we all keep in mind that we are "contractors".... we execute contracts.... we have to abide by themMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Excellent point Mike.
My use of the term "underbid" was poor, now clarified by your response.
What maybe I really meant to say was if he under bid his time, as a new entreprenour, it may not that bad. As a new guy in business he figures his time at X$ but let's say completes his first big job at .5X$, tough, certainly, but he's got the experience and hopefully, a satisfied client and that first resume project.
Materials are quite another thing of course. One has to at least break even there.
Runnerguy
easiest way for me to screw up is to use a non-performing sub..... sometimes they can get in over their head... or their personal life drags them down.... in the end i still own their part of the projectMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well said Mike!
Runnerguy
"he got into a contract with an unscrupulous lawyer... she cleaned his clock for $200K"
Ouch! Do you have any details?
no..... sketchy.... i think he had a staff design/estimator
put somethings on the prints but didn't carry them in the estimate
the lawyer dug into the contract documents and started to feed
someday when i see him i'll ask him for a "lessons learned " discussionMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Two bits of advice to pile on what you already heard.
One: When you break down the jobs into its parts, don't leave anything out. Being 20% low on one item won't hurt as bad as being 100% low on something you forgot.
Two: Once you have the job, don't worry about the price. Just do the best that you can. Enjoy the work and don't dwell on the should haves. You will learn from your mistakes but don't let that ruin your work or your time on this job.
Congrats on your step up. Yesterday I completed a $300,000 remodel that was my first large bid project. I'm sure I spent 40 hrs or more doing the original bid. I went over the numbers many times and found myself bumping up the fudge factor several times. Also I figured a 20% O and P on the whole thing. I ended up the second cheapest bid. Basically I new I was taking a huge risk on such a big commitment without a whole lotta experience in bidding but I figured I was careful enough that @ least I should break even and get a great education. In the end (though I havn't had time to crunch the final numbers) it looks like I made a little dough, gained good experience, got a huge boost of confidence in my abilities and have already gotten a referal. Good Luck!
p.s. I also read the Taunton press book on running a construction company and sought the help of some other experienced friends regarding contract writing. FInd a mentor and use them frequently!
Thanks for all your input everyone,I'm submitting the bid tomorrow. I've gone over it...a few times... I feel pretty confident that I'll be OK with regards to the numbers if I get the job. fingers crossed. Thanks againjake
What's up
He's waiting for an answer, and having second thoughts about everything. ('Omigod, what if...?' 'Cripes! I forgot...!!!)
Right about now, he's wishing he doubled everything twice.
BTDT....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
That would be me too.
Yah. Right now, I'm in the fourth week of a two-week paint job. Burns me up that after 15 years, I can finally count on being close enough on my estimates that I don't lose sleep over 'em...and still get slam-dunked into the terlit by the friggin' weather.
You ever try to paint a house wearing a full set of oilskins?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I lose sleep over jobs that aren't even mine.
Piant a house no, I put the dreaded vinyl on mine.
So, Hornswaggle works up north too?
Maybe it's his cousins...I know somebody's been messing with me down here.
Keep smiling. (It doesn't hurt as much.)
Don K.
That would be Hornswaggle's big brother Murphy. (I think Mother Nature's on her summer holiday and has left Murphy in charge of everything.)
Check this out: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=122045.57
At least Murphy's not just on my case...he's all over the poor HO, too.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Depending on the materials for the deck ie. typical composite decking= 2.75 lineal foot, good composite rails such as Trademark or Timbertech you should be looking at at least $45.00 sq.ft.. Add for enclosing below deck, rocky soil or any other items that aren't typical.
As far as the pergola just try to envision each step in your mind and add up the hours.
Factoids: Material costs are always more than budgeted, one hour in your mind actually is 2 hours in the field.
Biggest mistake anyone new to owning their own business is thinking they are going to reinvent the wheel and do things faster than anybody else. Don't forget to figure in health ins., life ins., work comp., liability ins., vacation time, sick time, holidays and the like. Good luck
Learning how to bid properly is a skill that every contractor must learn, just like cutting accurate miters and troweling concrete to the requisite smoothness, and the only way you will learn that is by doing it over and over again. Some bids will be too high, some will be right on, (and it will be a great feeling), and sometimes you'll get your a$$ handed to you, and those are the one's that you'll learn the most from. But don't settle for doing t&m jobs, because you'll never learn about bidding. As a professional, you should be able to give an accurate estimate of what a job will cost someone, so don't shy away from the challenge. On a practical note, bidding by man-hours for a specific job requires alot of data (i.e jobs you've done before), that starting out you probably don't have. Therefore, think back on your experiences and try to figure out what can be done in a day, not in an hour, and figure the job based on that. Then, absolutely, add a percentage to your estimated hours, because every contractor I know is too optimistic about time. Good Luck
"On a practical note, bidding by man-hours for a specific job requires alot of data (i.e jobs you've done before), that starting out you probably don't have."
Somebody somewhere knows that data. He should go find that somebody and then he'll have that data.
The double your estimate idea is usually a pretty good measure.
I'm a framer and I have a partner I work with everyday and we've learned that however long you think something will take, multiply that about 2 and that's how long it'll actually take.
Will the deck take 4 weeks if everything goes great? Then plan on it taking 7-8 weeks because not everything will go great.
As far as bidding goes we do our bids at $40 per hour, per man. So if a job will take us a 40 hour week, that's a $3,200 bid - labor only. Yeah I'd like to charge more, but we've only won one high bid.
Recently everyone is slitting everyone else's throats just to get work so we've had to drop our bids just to stay busy. And we still get undercut quite a bid.
Do you work with the Capcod framer?
Things starting to get better on the Cape?
No I don't work with him. What's his company name?
Cape is still really slow as far as I know. Lots and lots of building companies/atrchitects are out of business. We got stiffed $6,000 by a sinking ship builder.
We've been busy luckily but we're still not making the money we used to a few years ago. I like to build new houses and we just finished one for a lottery winner, but before that job we were kind of freaking out 'cause everybody was so low on work. We stayed small and I'm glad we did. 80% of the time it's just my partner and I working together, but we have a few guys we hire when we need help. Most companies around here that got big are out of business now.
I honestly don't know his name only what he posts here under.
I do know he lives in Sandwich.
I used to be out on the cape just about every weekend in the summer. Always wondered what it would be like to live there!