Over the years I’ve had I’m sure over a hundred people work for me, but never in this field. In my last business most of my people stayed for years and years. In the last week I’ve hired and fired three. Hope this isn’t a taste of what’s to come 😉
I paid them all quite well, and in the case of two of them since they had car issues I had their spouses/gf’s drop them at my shop and drove them to the job, brought them home and bought them lunch. But I expect them to work hard, and do what they say they can. After one guy had to redo some dw mudding work four times, I told him I was going to circle all the issues with pencil, had him redo them (still not great) and told him “sorry T, I enjoy working with you, but I can’t pay you to do the same work over five times” and this guy claimed to have a year’s experience with a dw contractor. Same guy also damaged my PC dw sander (fortunately I was able to fix it). I can see a lot of banging my head against the wall in my future…
Anyway, just venting. Now where’s the Wild Turkey?
Replies
Don't know the business history, but starting out Yes, you will go though it, until you hit on a few good guys. Once you get a decent crew, and word gets out that your guys do good work and you treat them well, the better guys will come knockin'. Some depends on the business envronment also. BTW one year's experience is still pretty green, you realistically can't expect too much. He probably spent the first 6 months humping sheetrock, and finally got to do a little hanging or nailing/screwing off after that. Taping and finishing comes last, he probably has very little actual finishing experience is my guess.
Like they say. All the good ones are happily employed already
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten!
So, you're in New Haven CT? Where abouts are you working? I used to work for a builder - Werner & Sons (3 sons) - out of Branford. We did work in Branford, Guilford, NH and Milford. Great guys and top notch work. I am sure they are still in business. You should give them a call and try to sub for them or stop by one of their sites. They might be a great source of guys who need work. They know everybody worth knowing, and then some. The best bosses I have ever had.
They should be listed in the yellow pages.
I almost bought a house in Hamden and North Haven. Where are you living? What type of work do you do?
F
Hiya Frankie,
Nice meeting you! I live in New Haven, my shop's in Hamden. If you're from the area you may have heard of Atlantic Filmworks in Hamden? That used to be my business. I am trying to concentrate on remodeling work (commercial or residential) that requires good design and problem solving talents. I know the firm you're taking about, they're top notch. I appreciate the suggestion to sub for them, but if the jobs I'm pitching right now come through I'll have my plate pretty darn full.
PaulB
I fired two guys last year...they seemed to make their their own hours and I hate that.
Then I walk away to do something and see them smoking and not working...I hate that too.
Spanish guys to boot....I thought they were spose' to be the best.
Guess I got two loosers.
I paid em' $14 an hour which ain't bad for unskilled labor.
I told them I would teach them...no go.
Jose' was just too full of himself and Alfonso was plain lazy.
Now I have a kid (22) thats been working with me for about 8 months.
I fired him once cause he too started making his own hours.
I gave him a second chance and he started working pretty hard cause he "finally" relized what he can learn working with me.
Only took him about seven months to realize it...now he pretty much cranks....finally...one decent guy.
I hired another guy thats starting Monday..Shamus..28 yrs old...his dad was/is a carp his whole life so thats the experiance he had.
Shamus was honest and says he's been working doing stained glass for TGI Friday's but wants to be a carp.....we'll see.
Good luck and
be well
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Same old story... I've had this discussion a thousand times. I,ve gone through hundreds of guys over the years and it comes down to this : 50% of the labor force is no darn good, may as well dump them off a cliff;20% will barely meet expectations, no amount of insentive of any sort will elevate their performance 20% will gett'er done and learn , along the way, the things they need to make it to the next catagory.10% will really take the ball and run with it.
The real trick is to weed out the first 50% in the interview proccess.I look for people that can show up on time, answer pertinent questions,remain focused when I throw them a curve.I look for guys with other responsibilities in their lives[family mortgages ect.]If they look as though they have pride in themselves, thier vehicles, and their tools , I will give them consideration.
Even the best of them will never meet your expectations because if you are any good at what you do , you yourself will never meet you expectations. Expect them to do 80% of what you wish that you could do and you'll be OK.
Good Luck!!
PaulB
I just must be lucky..
I pay what I consider a decent wage ($20.00 an hour) and am pretty willing to hire anybody with a pulse..No experiance needed. I tell them up front that their first task is to take care of themselves, don't do anything they consider dangerous and if they don't know how to do something to ask.. If they ask I take a moment to get all kind and scolarly and helpful since they are doing exactly what I want them to do...
I carefully show them how and watch while they attempt it, if they fail or do less than a good job I take the time to show them again or correctly or whatever needs to be done to convey my wants to them.
Second I never put time pressure on them.. I tell them that fast is not as important as done well. I want them to go home feeling that every job they did they did as well as it could possibly be done.. That tomorrow they'll be able to do even better. Speed comes with practice and repetition..
Finally I make one more point. That anybody hurt (so much as a scratch) should report it to me right away. Before they hurt themselves to ask themselves how much this will slow up the project and slow down by at least enough to avoid getting hurt..
That last always draws a puzzled look on everybodies face and you can almost hear them think, how are we supposed to know when, and the lite bulb goes on..
I feed them well and take breaks when anybody is showing signs of fatigue. Quickly they begin to understand that working is more fun than sitting around and then peer pressure kicks in and they start to keep each other motivated..
One thing I don't do is take all the difficult or complicated tasks for myself.. I want them to feel the same rewards and pride I do and then I get their very best efforts..
I compliment and explain or demostrate never critize..
The first few days tend to be slow but the rest are fun and surprisingly fast!
Sounds like we have very similar MO's in our employees Frenchie, I'm just used to it paying off better than it has so far ;)
Edited 4/17/2005 1:57 pm ET by PaulB
PaulB,
Lately I've found a great source of workers, the local schools.. Teachers all seem to have a great work ethic and especially the young ones willing to take on this kind of work..
The young ones are dramatically underpaid and need to pay off student loans. Plus the idea of learning something that will help them when they can afford to buy a house really seems to motivate them..
One minor point Paul,
frenchie is feminine while Frenchy is the masculine. I hope I've given a clear enough idea of my gender that there shouldn't be any confusion..
OOOOOOOOOOOOPSSSSSSSSS
Sorry, my eyeballs are just too tired I think been doing drawings and writing checks all day... my apologies!
frenchy,
I think Id almost pay YOU to work for you. Being the type of boss that you are brings this profession up about three notches. I sincerely hope that your employees realize the great gift they have in a boss like you.
To think of some of the jerks Ive worked for/ are in the construction business.......oh well.
-m2akita
p.s. Im lucky right now, very happy with the company Im with......hoping they're happy with me.
I'm confused. I thought you were employed by a company that sold heavy equipment.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten!
Gunner,
I'm also building a timberframe and occasionally use extra hands to help me achieve tasks that are extremely time intensive by myself..
Ohh. So your just hiring temporary help on an as needed basis. That's a lot different from what the original poster was getting at. He's looking for advice on hiring full time people who are going to stay with him long term. Not summer help or until his personel residence is completed. He's looking for pros, who he can groom to be trusted to work unsupervised on on going projects that require skill.
You had me and a few others confused. You sounded like a regular boss who did this for a living. LOL
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten.
Gunner,
This is a ten year project and thus far I have 3 1/2 years into it.. I use non-pros because I don't want to unteach work habits.. I'm building a very unique home that is a double timber frame. Timbers both inside and out, interconnected with SIPs between..
I've never ever seen anything approaching it in any magazine nor have I ever visited a home similar to it in my nearly 15 years in the construction industry..
The few Timberframes that I visit are never site built, instead they are prebuilt elsewhere, taken apart and shipped to the construction site..
I know of no-one who builds using Black walnut timbers on the outside and white oak timbers on the inside.In addition I use the european method of timberframing instead of the traditional American style..
Thus the need to train workmen in my methods.
Regarding the length of time workmen are employed.. like everyone here it's untill they find other uses for their time.. One person I trained went on to make it his full time career, one person went into the Army, another became a preacher and still another has been with me for several years and will probably remain for a while longer.
Yes I work to ensure that they know what to do and how it must be done. I work with them for my vacation to get them started and fully understanding what needs to be done and how and why.. Once I feel they have an understanding of the job. I then go do my thing selling equipment. I await their arrival in the morning and once here I give them today's tasks and whatever tools, equipment, or materials they'll need to do it.. I make sure they are on the same page and often if there is a series of tasks write them down in the order to be done and approximate amount of time to spend on each task.. In the evening I come home and review what work was achieved, answer any questions and solve problems.. They have my cell phone number and can reach me if there is something I need to know, or get, or do for them..
Explain please. what you do that's differant? (aside from the method of building)
Hello Frenchy! That sounds like an awesome project you're building! I don't think Gunner's post was intended to focus on the differences in how you run your crews, but just that the pressures and constraints on a professional builder or subcontractor are going to be different than those on an owner-builder project. The main difference is profit. Every guy on a professional's crew has to be contributing to a profitable income, or the whole ship goes down pretty quick. I know when I ran a framing crew, no way could I afford to pay every guy on the crew $20/hr. My pay went from like $8/hr for grunt labor to $16/hr. for a journeyman framer. Wages have gone up some since then, but I'm sure its still very tight. The builder would provide lumber, and our bid was just a labor bid. No room to mark up materials. With my overhead expenses figured in, my crew cost about $1000/day. If I bid a house for $10,000.00, I had ten working days with a full crew to get that house up, and after that I was going backwards (which happened more often than not, which is why I'm not runnng a framing crew anymore!). Part of the problem I encoutered is that the majority of tract framers paid at least part of their crew in cash under the table, which I refused to do. They would put one or two guys on worker's comp, so they'd have a policy to show the developer, and their plan was if a guy got hurt they'd call worker's comp and say "Hey, I just hired this guy today, and didn't have time to file the pagerwork, but he hurt himself on his first day."Since I was also a part of the framing crew, my training time was really limited. If I hired a guy who said he was a journeyman, he better well be a journeyman in skill level. I could them train him on those details I wanted done a little differently, but I could not afford to bring him to journeyman level while paying him journeyman wages all the while. I hired and fired lots and lots of guys. Which I hated doing, but it was just part of the territory.
Pretty good summary.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten.
Huck,
Funny, I learned to do it that way from all the guys I sell equipment to. The good ones that is. I never created it, just repeated it..
The great framers are like that, they are people that you like and want to hang around with even when you aren't on the clock..
The guys who cut corners and don't pay for insurance etc. all seem to want a better deal than I or anybody else can give them so they wind up with some P.O.S. that causes them all sorts of grief and eventually they are out of the business altogether..
Guys like you suggest who cut corners on insurance etc. may get away with it for a while but sooner or later it all catches up with them....
Give me someones SS number and you'd be amazed at what I can tell about that person.. Since you can't rent big equipment without a SS number it's gonna catch up to that person and as it does he'll be amazed at how quickly things go from bad to impossible!. .
"Guys like you suggest who cut corners on insurance etc. may get away with it for a while but sooner or later it all catches up with them."
You know, I once asked a guy, in exasperation, how he planned to stay in business for any length of time, running a business like that. He looked at me kinda puzzled, and said "Stay in business? He11, I just wanna make a few bucks and get out." Problem is, for every one that "gets out" there are a dozen more with the same business plan. I think a lot of the developers had to know what was going on, but all they cared about was the bottom line. I saw a lotta crap pass for "professional framing", but no one seemed to care. I recently ran into one of my old competitors, who ran hands-down the best framing crew in town at the time. He set the bar I only aimed at. Said he's running a horse-training ranch, and wouldn't even consider going back to framing. I think thats a sad statement of the building environment here, with so much hack framing all over, and a gifted guy like that is running a horse ranch.
What Huck just said.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten.