Replies

1. 
   xhammerandnailsx | Dec 05, 2003 09:01am | #1

   if you haven't already found it, Knots (look above) would probably be a better place for this question.

2. 
   Lateapex911 | Dec 05, 2003 09:28am | #2

   It's been a long time since i sprayed Laquer. But a couple thoughts:

   1: Did you spray a test panel first? I always do to adjust the gun and check for flowout, etc.

   2: Did you check the viscosity of your mix with a flow cup?

   3: You mentioned a new gun. Is the spray tip different? how about the air cap? Pressure? Actually, I just reread and see you are using an airless, so the aircap comment doesn't apply. I haven't sprayed with an airless, but I was under the impression that unless you go very high end, the atomization just isn't as good as a air gun, either siphon, or HVLP....

   4: As I remember, laquers were very sensitive to the temp and speed of the thinner Using a fast thinner would cause, or contribute to your problem.

   Finally, from your description, it doesn't sound like a problem with out gassing of the thinner you used as a tack rag.  I asume you used laq. thinner.  Problems can occur when you use a prep-sol type product to clean and degrease but don't allow sufficient drying time before spraying. The finish coat has obvious deformities, and a wrinkled, craggley look in the affected areas.

   I last sprayed some cabinets in a water based poly, and it was a lot of work, sanding, cleaning, spraying, over and over. But the poly dried very quickly, and was easy to spray. The results were fine. The wood was highly figured anigre.

   Jake Gulick

   [email protected]

   CarriageHouse Design

   Black Rock, CT

3. 
   bill_1010 | Dec 05, 2003 04:17pm | #3

   was your gun totally clean?   (any extra solvents or old solvents inside, or oils of anykind around your rings?)

   Was your laquer bad or contaminated?

4. 
   Mooney | Dec 05, 2003 06:04pm | #4

   You needed to let the wood dry after the wipe down with nap.

   Sounds like it was too thick and also needed retarder . Anytime it doesnt melt in and become one as you put it , you are usually lacking retarder.

   Fish eye is totally something else than you described as you said orange peel.

   Tim Mooney

5. 
   goldhiller | Dec 05, 2003 06:25pm | #5

   Others here have already hit on some of the basic important points of consideration based on your description.

   Was this a cat-lacquer, CAB, waterborne lacquer or nitro?

   How's poly to spray? Do you mean oil-based or waterborne?

   Oil-based poly atomizes very, very finely. Unless you have plenty of forced ventilation, you'll soon find yourself immersed in a sticky cloud of it.

   (FWIW, I'm no fan of spraying furniture finishes with an airless.)

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/5/2003 10:26:49 AM ET by GOLDHILLER

1. 
   cutawooda | Dec 05, 2003 06:54pm | #6

   You hit on a questiojn I have pondered for a long time. I am torm between  my airless and a cup sprayer. I had a CS for a while but it was a cheap one and I never had good result....I had lousy results. BUT<....I lived in houston, (humidity and heat) I was a novice, it was a cheap CSprayer. So I switched over to my airless through persuasion of a freind cabinet maker. I love the finish it puts on, however, the clean up is a pain and the set up is a pain. I would love an excuse to switch over but i have a few questions.

   1. What is the best way..hvlp, pressure pot, or just a good CS.

   2. How do you spray upside down with a CS. Sometimes you have to get up into the top of a peice.

   3. What is the pressure on the air tannk set at.

   4.What is the proper mix

   5. If CS are soo good, why do I keep running into Cab makers that still use airless.

   thanks for your help

1. 
   goldhiller | Dec 05, 2003 08:49pm | #7

   I've gotta change the order of the questions a bit to get them aligned with my thoughts and experience on all this.

   5. If CS are soo good, why do I keep running into Cab makers that still use airless?

   I have no definite answer for this question really. Might be a regional thing, but no furniture or cabinet makers that I've ever known around here use airless for furniture finishes, nor do I. I have one that I use for spraying houses and other buildings, but no matter the tip set, the results and control aren't refined enough for furniture IME. Nor have I ever seen a book on furniture finishing that covers the use of airless for application of these finishes. For instance, check out Flexner's book or perhaps Homestead Finishing's site and I don't think you'll find mention of airless other than to say it isn't an appropriate consideration. The use of such in your area may be related to your high humidity conditions. Compressing air for a conventional high pressure setup or even HVLP may be more prone to finish problems than using the airless. That's conjecture on my part and nothing more. It may be that your local furniture guys are choosing airless because they're then fighting with the lesser of two opponents to get a predictably decent finish result. Do you have any knowledge of what your local body shops are using for guns?

   1. What is the best way..hvlp, pressure pot, or just a good CS.

   Best is relative to needs and concerns. HVLP transfers more material to the surface than HP spraying because there is less waste in drift caused by material "bounce off" instead of material "stick". The difference can be quite significant and usually is. But sometimes the conventional high-pressure setup is the one that gives you the most control of pattern size and that is exactly what's needed sometimes. It depends. Depends on the HVLP gun and the HP gun and the project in question. And then you can choose between an HVLP conversion gun setup (uses air compressor) or an HVLP turbine outfit. There's also another choice these days and that's LVLP. Low volume, low pressure.

   What is "best" in HVLP will depend upon circumstances. If you choose an HVLP conversion gun in your high humidity conditions, you're still going to be compressing some mighty humid air and will need some efficient moisture separators to eliminate the problems that moisture will cause with your finish. Lacquers will likely be your biggest concern in that regard. High humidity coupled with high Texas temps will require vigilance as it concerns the selection of a proper retarder to allow the moisture to escape before the finish flashes over or headaches are on the horizon.

   An HVLP turbine outfit produces hotter air to the gun and that can be a big help in eliminating those humidity problems without the need for a separator. This is not to say that you won't need some type of specific retarder yet. And although that hotter air can be a plus with some finishes, it can be detrimental in getting a good result with others because the higher temps can sometimes cause an finish to flash over before it's had a opportunity to flow out properly. Depends. You could find yourself still adding a bit more thinner or some type of retarder.

   There's many HVLP turbine outfits on the market. Not all are equally worthy or consideration. Here's a link to an article about turbine units for less than $500 if that's the type of thing you're interested in……. http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00051.asp

   I bought the Wagner 2600 (which is really a Capspray unit). Zero complaints. These turbine outfits are highly portable if that's a concern to you. And of course, you can spend more money on one if you'd like.

   If you already have a big air compressor, you may be ready and wanting a conversion gun. I like my Accuspray really well.

   2. How do you spray upside down with a CS. Sometimes you have to get up into

   the top of a piece.

   You don't really. You take the cup off and attach the gun head via hoses to a pressure tank or pot. All manner of sizes available. Some small enough that you can hang them off your belt.

   3. What is the pressure on the air tank set at?

   Depends on the gun in question and the viscosity of the material. Conventional HP siphon gun, usually around 35 - 45 psi. HVLP conversion gun, usually between 6 psi and 12psi as there's little point in running the HVLP conversion gun if you're going to spray at HP pressure anyway.

   4.What is the proper mix?

   Not exactly sure what you mean. If you mean material to thinner/retarder, it depends. You've got to get the material at or near recommended spraying viscosity to get good results.

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

   Edited 12/5/2003 1:36:19 PM ET by GOLDHILLER

1. 
   cutawooda | Dec 06, 2003 03:36am | #8

   thanks for the info...I think I will hint around to my wife that  Santa wants to bring some.....are you ready?....Binks Binks...get it?  bling bling...cmon...now thats comedy folks...............tough room

1. 
   goldhiller | Dec 06, 2003 05:32am | #9

   From the sounds of it, you're thinkin' conventional HP. There was a discussion here a little while ago that included those types of guns. Good stuff in there as i recall.

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=14125.1

   One more thing about choices. An HVLP turbine rig is not only highly and easily portable, but is a good choice if you need to shoot inside an occupied or finished residence because there's less drift to deal with. Don't know if you do much of this or anticipate such, but I do and so that's why I bought the Wagner rig. I liked the relatively cooler tip temps it offered. Adds up to less material build-up on the aircap too (which is one of the downsides of using a turbine), so less frequent cleanings needed throughout the day's work.

   Hope Santa gets your letter. :-)

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

2. 
   Mooney | Dec 07, 2003 01:08am | #11

   Airless guns are used spraying laquer for two main reasons. To get a build up of sealer . They spray from the bucket with out thinning if needed. Ive got a Slow Stroker that heats it while Im spraying it and puts it out at 1 gallon per minute coating assembly line cabinets. No other method touches their speed. Finish coats have to be backed off however . I go to the final coat with air and retarder to smooth out the production coats. This isnt a pro thread , but theres some more information.

   Tim Mooney

3. 
   goldhiller | Dec 07, 2003 01:21am | #12

   Thanks, Tim. I've learned something new. Another good day for me here.

   But don't go thinkin' I'm about to go assembly line just cause I know that. I hates factory work. ;-)

   I can also see, as indicated, a theoretical advantage to shooting airless in an extremely humid environment. We get quite humid up here during some long spells in the summer, but not for a large enough portion of the year for me to resort to airless for that reason alone.

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

4. 
   Lateapex911 | Dec 06, 2003 11:10pm | #10

   Yes, HVLP rocks.Jake Gulick

   [email protected]

   CarriageHouse Design

   Black Rock, CT