How do you do windowseat structures? We’ve a bunch to do tomorrow, and are thinking the framing is 2x4s on 16″ centers.
Finish is a plywood top with a front lip of hardwood, a stile/rail/panel apron made sort of like a real narrow cab door laid sideways, then a built-up base.
These will be sat upon, for sure, and the client will use non-attached upholstered cushions.
We thought we would just make top frames of single-plated 2x4s on 16 centers, and the front “wall” below also as a single-plated 2×4 subassembly.
My idea was to measure all widths and bench-fab the frames, front and top, all with widths about 3/8 shy of the widths (measure all ways to get narrowest) of openings. My sidekick always says “don’t fight it” and complains I often make fits too tight.
Snap some lines, pin things in place, fix with nails or screws, and we’re done framin’. Ready for the finish.
Is all this 2×4 lumber overkill? See attached pic.
Replies
I've seen them with fixed tops and drawers that slide out from under--but more fooling around than you probably want to do. Your way sounds more than strong enough and quick and easy to do.
What are the dimensions?
If you can knock together the "ladders" quick enough, then skin over, I suppose it is $ wise.
You probably could build the hole thing "finished" with just ply and a ledger at the wall.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Depth 26 to 28 inches.
Widths 36 up to 150 inches.
Heights all same at 16 inches.
Finish shown on attached.
I have no doubt gene you could build this with the finish materials holding and supporting all of this. Question is, would the time spent thinking it out in just ply beat the time and material of all that framework. A ledger with ribs to the face would support the load and then some. This has no full back, just a 4'' wide back ledger with one rib to the floor in the middle that supports the 2 flip tops. All made from 3/4 MDO ply. They wanted to not cut out the original base but cope to it in case they removed the table seating box or for resale. A slight lip on the front edge at the top to keep the cushion from sliding forward.
Your initial frame with 1x4 would be enough.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Gene
I have a project going on right now with bench seating.
Here is a couple shots of them from the beautiful moonlit driveway!
I built all mine out of birch ply and they have alder faceframes. Toe kicks are built separately, I like to level them and then just set the cabs on top.
Excuse the dust. These seats will get drawers and finish ends. It will have an alder top and some sort of cusions on top.
Doug
OK, ignore that first one, and the other one! I'll resize
Edited 11/15/2005 8:05 pm ET by DougU
To get a rough idea of the amount of framing needed for your window seats, just think of the depth of your seat as a clear span such as a floor. The span between a front face and a ledger on the wall would only be about 24" or so. 3/4" AC birch ply paints well and would span that quite reasonably, especially with a 2x stiffener in the middle of the seat.
The AC ply also holds nails quite well so your base and other finish/trim parts will be easy to assemble.
I'd guess using the thicker AC ply would cut your time in half over framing and then a finish ply.
The guys on our crew with the most cabinet making experience would lean toward making a box in the garage or offsite and install it with filler strips on the side to fill the gaps.
The guys on our crew that came up primarily through construction, myself included, would tend to piece it into the opening, allowing for out of square/plumb as it's put together.
Which way is right? Used to be my way was the obviously faster route, but now I can see how productivity would depend a great deal on a person's past experience and comfort level with the two construction techniques. Our cabinet makers don't have to think twice about how to size the box and the cuts are easy since it's all made square on an assembly table. Building each piece to fit the opening can sometimes fry a few of their braincells since they aren't used to thinking in terms of making boxes that aren't 100% square.
Having said all that, if the window seat was to contain drawers, which it isn't, I'd recommend building the boxes square on a table, otherwise it's faster to piece it in, at least it is if you're able to place a miter saw close by.
Good seating,
Don
The guys on our crew with the most cabinet making experience would lean toward making a box in the garage or offsite and install it with filler strips on the side to fill the gaps.
The guys on our crew that came up primarily through construction, myself included, would tend to piece it into the opening, allowing for out of square/plumb as it's put together.
I'm wrestling with this same conundrum on a banquet seating project I am trying to plan. To me it just makes more sense to use the pre-existing wall-floor as two sides of the box-why waste the plywood. But it seems that the 'official cabinet maker way' would be to pre-build a complete box and then install it. It seems to me that with a ledger screwed into the wall and into the floor you could attach the plywood to them and it would be plenty strong??
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I'm wrestling with this same conundrum on a banquet seating project I am trying to plan. To me it just makes more sense to use the pre-existing wall-floor as two sides of the box-why waste the plywood. But it seems that the 'official cabinet maker way' would be to pre-build a complete box and then install it. It seems to me that with a ledger screwed into the wall and into the floor you could attach the plywood to them and it would be plenty strong??
Daniel,
When desiding which method to use look at those things that might favor one over the other and basically go with the one that is more likely to work.
How complex is the project? Simple designs favor building in place while complex items can often be build in sections and assembled on a separate leveled base.
How many planes have to meet up? If you are making a simple box there is essentially one plane and building in place is easy. Multiple simple boxes makes it harder and harder to get them all to line up, much like cabinetry. Of course a person can build a level base, such as what would be used with cabinetry, while the rest is built in place.
How complicated is the jointery? Paint grade vs. stain? Being able to access all sides of a project can make complicated joints much easier to make, especially if it's important to hide nails, screws, etc.
How plumb/square does it need to be to function properly? Hanging shelves in an out of square cabinet takes a simple job and slows it down to a snail's pace. There is a reason most cabinets are not built in place.
How plumb/square is the opening you're installing the seating into?
How good are you at coming up with a specific design that can be build out of place and still fit the opening when installed? There are many finish carpenters that I would only give a 50/50 chance of success if they had to make a detailed project off site.
How good are you at dealing with out of plumb/square walls and floor as you piece a project together? How good are you at piecing a project together? Your plan needs to identify those parts that have to be made square and those that can follow the walls/floor.
If built in place you'll be frustrated with the difficulties involved in producing good tight fitting joints with parts that have one square side and one non-square. You'll most likely swear that next time you'll build it square in the garage and not have to deal with those problems.
If you build it in the garage, you'll be frustrated that the design didn't fit the opening as closely as you would have liked--either too tight or too loose. You'll swear that next time you'll build it in place so you know everything will fit properly.
Having said all that, you should use whatever method meets your fancy.
From what I've read about your banquet seating plan, it's somewhat complex and gaining in complexity each week with the possibility of curved backs, etc. Also, it needs to be built square for hinged doors/lids to sit flat and for drawers to function properly. You're using hidden hinges that have little (no?) adjustment so must be mortised precisely. Extensive use of pocket screws is almost by definition something you'd need to do from the inside working out (not building it in place). Based on those items I'd probably build it as a number of freestanding pieces and connect them together on a level base.
Good seating!
Don
From what I've read about your banquet seating plan, it's somewhat complex and gaining in complexity each week with the possibility of curved backs, etc. Also, it needs to be built square for hinged doors/lids to sit flat and for drawers to function properly. You're using hidden hinges that have little (no?) adjustment so must be mortised precisely. Extensive use of pocket screws is almost by definition something you'd need to do from the inside working out (not building it in place). Based on those items I'd probably build it as a number of freestanding pieces and connect them together on a level base.
Thanks Don for the well reasoned reply. The design is getting more complicated by the minute. I've got a copy of the 'booth article' and I am working up some new drawings hopefully incorporating all the useful features and still being buildable (by me).
I think that I will build it as three pieces at least, the two short sides and then the long back side. I am a not clear yet on how to detail how they meet.
Just about nothing in this 106 year old Victorian is plumb-square. Hanging the kitchen cabinets was an adventure for this non-pro but now I feel like I'm getting the hang of dealing with it.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
This is only a window seat. Your not building a house. I've framed for them before but never put cross 2x's because every window seat that I've seen is also used for storage and gets wrapped with finished ply and the top opens with a piano hinge. It's like framing for a Jacuzzi platform you don't need anything in the middle.
Every other window seat is made by the trimmers out of 3/4" plywood all around including the top with piano hinge so you can open it for storage. Then put your cushion on top. Why waste all that space with all that unnecessary framing. Better yet, if you don't want the top to open, forget the cross pieces and put plywood on top.