Replies

1. 
   SunnySlopes | Jan 20, 2004 11:29pm | #1

   Nothing like having to go over something that should have been done right the first time. 

       If the finish  carpenters are doing their job, all the painter needs to do is fill in the holes, and maybe, fill in a little at SOME sloppy miters and paint away.  If the painter is doing more than that, then the finish guys are really not paying attention to detail and I would never ever use them for stain grade. 

      Hey,  I'm looking around your area to retire!  Maybe jay in the valley.  Any  suggestions?  I would let a local guy build my dream home.  Well, not all of it. 

   "One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions"
2. 
   Shep | Jan 20, 2004 11:46pm | #2

     As a finish carpenter, I caulk my trim to the walls, make sure the miters and joints are tight ( or at worst filled ), and usually sand out any rough spots. All the painter usually has to do is give the trim a light sanding, fill the nail holes, and paint. This is on paint-grade trim- stain grade is a whole "nother story.

3. 
   xMikeSmith | Jan 20, 2004 11:52pm | #3

   paint grade trim..the carps set the nails..sand saw marks

   the painter fills all nail holes, caulks ALL joints, and does some miscelaneous...including wall touch-up

    sounds like your painter is singing their favorite song.." the painter always gets screwed"..

   if he bid it without seeing it... what exactly is his complaint?

   if he bid it after he saw it.. he has nothing to complain about..

   someone is going to do what needs doing.. do you want to pay carps... or do you want to pay painters ?

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   cc | Jan 21, 2004 12:22am | #4

   Don't you just hate it when people can't agree on who gets the blame.  When I use to do finish work that was paint grade I would always fill the holes and caulk the trim.  It doesn't take that much time and then the painter gives it a quick once over and off they go.  It's easier that way.

   CC

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Jan 21, 2004 12:59am | #5

   cc.. if we're doing the finish paint , we do just what you did.. but ..

   i don't want to pay my finish carp.  for filling holes and caulking if i'm bringing in a painter..

   filling  and caulking  are a skill that painters make their bread and butter on.. they are a lot more efficient at it than me and my carps... now .. can they do a lousy job... you bet.... if so.. it gets pointed out

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   cc | Jan 21, 2004 01:25am | #9

   Mike,  I can see your point, but how much filling and caulking need doing?  I use to hate the arguments with the painters about the filling of the set marks etc, so I just started to do it.  I didn't sand it, that's their job...just had a tube of interior filler and filled as I went (still do it out of habit on the small stuff I do now).  I tried to have the small gaps (crown against the ceiling etc.) touched up quick.  Usually cracked it off as I took a look at the job (I never look at what I do while I do it...I save the lingering look till after it's all finished).  Time wise, it never took as long as the painters claimed it would take, and as I did it, there was no one to blame.

   As the boss use to say, "it isn't a Swiss watch."  I've seen lots of time burnt on filling and caulking to try to make things perfect.  It's a nail hole, move on.

   CC

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Jan 21, 2004 02:12am | #10

   cc... exactly.... but my finish carp is fastidius.. if i let him fill... he'll be at it all day.. a waste of his talents and my  money..

   on lots of small jobs we do our own painting.. then everyone fills and caulks, and sands and puttys... and spacklesMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   cc | Jan 21, 2004 02:30am | #11

   Mike,  Sounds like you have the solution.  If it's cheaper to have the painters do it, then it's theirs.  I'd make sure the basics are there (doing a nail hole takes a second) and leave the French cooking to the cheaper labour.  In the end, the better the initial job, the less work the "touch-up" artists have to do.

   CC

3. 
   JeffBuck | Jan 21, 2004 02:52am | #13

   MIke does have the solution ... hire a good carpenter ... and a good painter ...

   and let them each do their job.

   I run all my own trim ... and my painter yells at me if I try to do any part of his job ... doesn't want some dumb carp screwing up his nice finish.

   Plus ... he give me "one free nail setting" per room ...

   anything over that comes with added bitching.

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

4. 
   donpapenburg | Jan 21, 2004 03:34am | #14

   Do you make sure he has one nail per room to set. Just too kep him in tune?

5. 
   gdavis62 | Jan 21, 2004 04:31am | #16

   We had about two or four per window or door.

6. 
   gdavis62 | Jan 21, 2004 04:39pm | #17

   But here is what really got to me.  All window and door head trim has a 1x4 top casing, continuous across the top ends of the 1x4 side casings.  In other words, the side casings butt to the top.  No miter.  I asked that these all be biscuit-joined with some glue.  He argued that it was foolish to do so, in that he "would be fighting with the joints," due to extension jambs not precisely coming flush to drywall.

   So, many of the joints were made non-flush, requiring in some cases considerable filling, feathering out, and sanding.  Many also have done hairline separations, AFTER the finish paint job.

7. 
   sportinwood | Jan 21, 2004 06:49pm | #18

   REVEAL, REVEAL, REVEAL!!!    and a biscuit for good measure.

   If 1x4 yellow pine was speced for casing, you probably got what you asked for.

   Just not stable enough to stay put and different dimensions in stock pretty regular. 

   5/4 head casings and 3/4 side casings or an extra element protruding from beneath the head casing.....  REVEAL.  (Better?, but too late)

   I just got done with the same thing.  After fighting the first window and door i preassembled the head and side casings with pocket screws then installed.  Worked much better.  But in the future I intend to push hard for REVEALS!

8. 
   gdavis62 | Jan 21, 2004 07:29pm | #19

   I agree.  Next time I use that trim scheme there will be a 5/4 x 4 at the top, extending 1/4" beyond 1x4 side casings.  But, we will pocket screw together before going on the wall.

4. 
   dIrishInMe | Jan 21, 2004 01:05am | #6

   Exactly what are your painter's doing that may have been the trim guy's job?

   Matt
1. 
   gdavis62 | Jan 21, 2004 01:17am | #7

   Nailing loose sills.  Sanding miters.  Sanding butts.  Re-attaching baluster spacer blocks fastened with too-short nails.  Patching and feathering a lot of dings made by edges and corners of nailguns.  Repriming over pencil marks in closets where the trim guy was told the closet walls were finish painted and to be careful (he hung the wire shelving.)  Same with chalk lines on ceilings.  Filling large knot tearouts in baseboard where the knots should have been cut out.

1. 
   jonblakemore | Jan 21, 2004 01:22am | #8

   Anything that includes re-fastening trim or marks on finished walls is a callback for the carpenter.

   I think the other points could go either way depending on severity. 

   Jon Blakemore

2. 
   dIrishInMe | Jan 21, 2004 04:15am | #15

   On your list, it sounded like about 70% of that stuff should have been taken care of by the trim carp.  And a few items seemed a bit questionable, ie knots in base.   Sounds like you got yourself a first class painter and a second class trim carp.  Look at the bright side, you don't have to hire the trim carp again, and your better off with a 1st class painter and a 2nd class trim guy than a second class painter and a first class trim guy. I would imagine that there may be some punch work still for the carp - shoe mold around hardwood floors or whatever, but I wouldn't let that guy back in the house.   Matt

5. 
   Floss | Jan 21, 2004 02:48am | #12

   Caulk and paint makes a carpenter what he aint.

6. 
   dIrishInMe | Jan 22, 2004 03:34pm | #20

   Not to belabor the point but take a look at this FHB article, http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00036.asp the second rule.

   For that mater, anyone who does carpentry, but isn't a "great carpenter" should read the article.  For the new-bee it has some great concepts, and for the more experienced person, it reminds you of some basics.
    

   Matt